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RE: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results

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  • brian swann
    Dear Susan, All Let me give some personal opinions - I have just come back today from the Quarterly Meeting held up in London of the London Branch of the Welsh
    Message 1 of 10 , May 16, 2009
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      Dear Susan, All
      Let me give some personal opinions - I have just come back today from the Quarterly Meeting held up in London of the London Branch of the Welsh Family History Group.  This was at the Mormon FHC at South Kensington.  This is the largest Mormon FHC outside of the USA.
      Irish/Welsh migration, especially in medieval and earlier times, is not particularly my field of expertise in history.  I have always regarded Francis Jones's article in Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, 1948, An Approach to Welsh Genealogy, as a good place to start.
      I wonder if we could consider approaching the Society and ask if we could not get permission to put this article onto the website as a pdf file?  It is difficult for most people to access this article and it is quite long - it runs from pages 303 to 466 of this issue.
      Then there are these two articles which are compulsory reading.  I have the first but I don't think I have the second yet.

      McEvoy B, Bradley DG, 2006.  Y-Chromosomes and the Extent of Patrilineal Ancestry Within Irish Surnames.  Hum Genet. 119:212-219.


      McEvoy B, Simms K, Bradley DG, 2008.  Genetic Investigation of the Patrilineal Kinship Structure of Early Medieval Ireland.  Am J Phys Anthropol. 136:415-422.


      There will be a small gang of the London Branch going down to the National Library of Wales in August for up to a week to conduct research - and I hope to be part of that.  I will also be back there again at the end of September [30th September to be precise].  Perhaps from all this we can start to draw up a plan to compare the DNA of Wales and Ireland.  As I have said before, we need to catch up with the work of the Group at Oxford University and the "Face of Britain" project first.


      What I would like to happen is to get some of this onto the Table at WDYTYA in February 2010.  For that I need the agreement of the Organisers to give ISOGG a separate booth for free - and more challengingly to agree to a Speakers Area for 1-day for free.  Until I have commitment to that - I can only plan so far.  I will be away on holiday to Spain for 10 days or so at the beginning of June and will try to get some input from the Organisers before that date - but we may not manage a face-to-face meeting, which is what is really needed.  But time marches on - it almost 3 months since WDYTYA 2009 finished.


      I personally hope we can build on some of the presentations made last year - as well as repeating the main themes covered then.  But I do not want to plan for more than 1 extra day - for this year at least.  And I will need the buy-in of Katherine and the ISOGG Group over there, plus, of course, FTDNA.


      I have also been giving some thought as to how we could run an Area or topic specifically on "DNA and Emigration to America" where we might have a series of short talks and then an open discussion forum, perhaps with a help area as well.  I am expecting a larger American presence next year.  This, of course, will not be Welsh-specific - but we get a lot of questions on how to effectively recruit people in England & Wales to study emigration issues and I don't think we can duck this issue quite so much if more folk from the USA come.


      I don't really think we duck it at present - but equally we do not dwell very long on it either.


      What I might do - and I have been talking about this in the Picton project for years - is consult with someone who will know exactly who to speak to about this Welsh/Irish overlap in medieval history and further back in time.  He is Roger K. Turvey and if he does not know the answers - he certainly will know who will.  He will know the best books/articles to read to explore this subject further.  Also I am sure the NLW Staff will help following our foray there in August and my later visit in September.


      Not very far from where I work is the University of Reading Library and they have a good run of Welsh Academic Periodicals [Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies, Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, Welsh History Review, etc.]. It could be possible to generate a listing of salient articles from the academic journals there.


      I also have to say that I can only give so much time to the cross-surname Haplogroup correlations.  This is because I am still working for a living - and indeed have some interesting work in relation to pharmaceuticals and drug development, which if it comes to fruition will take priority over any of this Family History DNA stuff - but I hope having a finger in both pies is to the long-term benefit of the effort overall.


      There is also the survey of ISOGG Members in England and Wales that Debbie Kennett and Chris Pomery have organised.  That has just about closed now - I think the 12th May was the last date to return the questionnaire.


      Bartrum's Volumes going online in 2010 will also generate some appreciable interest in this subject area.


      So I suggest we have a number things going on - but as always we need to drive them on towards getting effective action.  But a separate 1-day programme would give us a concrete target and date to aim for.


      I may call you to discuss all this, Susan.


      Trust this helps



      Brian Picton Swann
      ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales

      -----Original Message-----
      From: walesdna@yahoogroups.com [mailto:walesdna@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Susan Rosine
      Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:40 PM
      To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results

      Hi Brian,
      What's the latest news on this (your posting below)?
      Obviously there was some "coming and goings" between Ireland and Wales. Their DNA is similar, with the haplogroup R1b1b2 being the vast majority in both countries.  However, the Wales DNA project so far has VERY FEW men with "Niall of the Nine Hostages" markers, whereas Ireland has a huge percentage.
      Also, let us remember that although Irish and Welsh obviously are both Celtic languages, they are not the same language--meaning these people lived apart long enough to form different languages. There are two schools of thought on this. One, that there were already two languages on the continent, and one settled in Wales, the other in Ireland. Two, that there was one language on the continent, and some settled in Wales, some in Ireland, and the differences in the languages developed after the immigration.
      I am still hoping we can find some uniqueness to each country's DNA to set them apart from each other. If they had time to develop different languages, perhaps there was also enough time to develop slightly different DNA (wouldn't it be nice to find a "Welsh" SNP??? I'm only dreaming!).

      --- On Sat, 5/9/09, brian swann <bps@norvic8. force9.co. uk> wrote:

      From: brian swann <bps@norvic8. force9.co. uk>
      Subject: RE: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results
      To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
      Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 1:07 AM

      Dear All
      I am thinking out loud here.
      I suggest, longer term, we need to improve our knowledge of all the work that has been done by historians in the past to study migration between Wales and Ireland.  I am sure there is a long history of this, given their geographical proximity.
      What really needs to be done is a more detailed genetic Y-chromosome map of Wales and Ireland.  I need to follow up on the "Face of Britain" Project being run out of Oxford University.
      I don't know if it will fly, but I am suggesting to the Organisers of WDYTYA 2010 that it may be appropriate to include more Speakers in this area for the 2010 Programme.  The core of what was presented in 2009 has to remain - as that is the bedrock of what DNA Testing will mean to the bulk of Family Historians in the UK.  But the results with SNP advances, let alone other DNA techniques like those available from 23andMe and X-chromosome testing, means there are a lot of advances going on.
      I have just offered to the Organisers the possibility of pulling together a day on this sort of theme for 2010.  There are a number of challenges to overcome, not the least of which is that as ISOGG does not charge anyone to belong, we have no financial clout over the programme.  And the Organisers are no different from anyone else - they have to make a profit out of the Event. And without the generous support of FTDNA we would not have a DNA Area at all.  So this is a balancing act between several parties.
      Hopefully my visit to the NLW in September may also gradually awaken academic interest in this area.  We need to gradually improve the quality of discussion by drawing on all the past academic study in this area.  Of course, a lot of this is difficult enough to access in the UK, let alone in America - but that situation continues to improve on a weekly, if not daily basis.
      Best regards
      Brian Picton Swann
      ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales
      -----Original Message-----
      From: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:walesdna@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of mwwalsh
      Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:12 AM
      To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
      Subject: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results

      Are there many M222+ type folks in England that are not Irish immigrants? If there aren't, but there are some traditional Welsh surnames/heritages from Wales that are.... that may indicate that M222+ actually originated in Wales. When looking for origination I know that you look for brothers, i.e. L21*. We know there are a lot of L21* folks in Wales and if there are few M222+ that are not "back" migrants Ireland, maybe that is the origination.

      I'm L21* and I do some of my closest genetic distances in YSearch from Wales, named Evans also.... Of course names like Evans and Morgan seem to be quite commons so they are probably multiple clans.

      --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@ ...> wrote:

      Thanks Janet, I really appreciate your assistance.
      The kit nos. are:-
      32493 - Samuel Evans;
      N50602 - Robert Evans of Wales;
      80019 - Thomas Evans;
      115365 - Samuel Gwinn.
      --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "ljcrain2" <ljcrain2@> wrote:

      Rich; Send me their kit # and I will contact them on your behalf, giving them your address. That way they can contact you if they want to.
      I wish we had an easier way. :-)
      Janet Crain
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: essyllwg 
      To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com 
      Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:07 PM
      Subject: [walesdna] Deep Clade Results
      Hi all,
      I received my Deep Clade Test results today and they confirm that I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the majority of my closest matches are R1b1b2a1b5b and are of Irish/Scottish origin.
      My confusion is that I have a Welsh patronymic surname and have traced my paternal John ancestors back to Loughor, South Wales circa 1750.
      As posted previously, John Plummer has suggested that R1b1b2a1b5b (previously R1b1c7) might be the haplogroup shared by the descendents of one of the Royal Tribes of Wales (I believe of the line of Rhodri Mawr, Hywel Dda etc) who claimed descent from Meirchion Gul, whose father's name Gwrwst may have been a brythonic rendering of Fergus (i.e. Fergus Mor MacEarc). Fergus was a male line descendent of Niall Noigallach, the Irish King who is claimed to be the partriarch of the M222 haplogroup.
      There dont seem to be many M222+ results on the Wales/Cymru results page. However, there are 3 Evans and 1 Gwinn. My question is whether it is possible to contact these people so that I can ascertain whereabouts in Wales their lines originate?
      Also, does anybody have any suggestions on families within the group that also claim descent from the line of Hywel Dda etc so that their haplogroups can be compared?
      Kind regards,

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