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Re: Delays in Deep Clade Testing

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  • mwwalsh
    It took a while for mine. In some cases they redo work to make sure it is accurate, but I don t understand their processes. I didn t press them on the
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 22, 2009
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      It took a while for mine. In some cases they "redo" work to make sure it is accurate, but I don't understand their processes. I didn't press them on the time. I figured that accuracy was certainly most important.

      --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@...> wrote:
      >
      > Has anyone experienced delays in FTDNA's deel clade testing?
      >
      > I've been waiting for my test results for a few months and the approximate date was today. Unfortunately, I got the following message from FTDNA:
      >
      > 'The Deep Clade tests are performed in a series of rounds to pinpoint your position on the current Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree. Your sample requires more than the average number of rounds to complete this testing process. As each round is completed, those results are added to your Y-DNA Haplotree section. The next testing round is expected to be complete by this date'.
      >
      > Does anyone have any idea why the sample would require additional testing? Is this likely to be due to the quality of the sample? Is additional testing required for certain haplogroups? Or simply that they havent got round to testing my sample yet?
      >
      > Kind regards,
      >
      > Rich
      >
    • essyllwg
      Hi all, I received my Deep Clade Test results today and they confirm that I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the majority of my
      Message 2 of 10 , May 8, 2009
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        Hi all,

        I received my Deep Clade Test results today and they confirm that I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the majority of my closest matches are R1b1b2a1b5b and are of Irish/Scottish origin.

        My confusion is that I have a Welsh patronymic surname and have traced my paternal John ancestors back to Loughor, South Wales circa 1750.

        As posted previously, John Plummer has suggested that R1b1b2a1b5b (previously R1b1c7) might be the haplogroup shared by the descendents of one of the Royal Tribes of Wales (I believe of the line of Rhodri Mawr, Hywel Dda etc) who claimed descent from Meirchion Gul, whose father's name Gwrwst may have been a brythonic rendering of Fergus (i.e. Fergus Mor MacEarc). Fergus was a male line descendent of Niall Noigallach, the Irish King who is claimed to be the partriarch of the M222 haplogroup.

        There dont seem to be many M222+ results on the Wales/Cymru results page. However, there are 3 Evans and 1 Gwinn. My question is whether it is possible to contact these people so that I can ascertain whereabouts in Wales their lines originate?

        Also, does anybody have any suggestions on families within the group that also claim descent from the line of Hywel Dda etc so that their haplogroups can be compared?

        Kind regards,

        Rich

        --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@...> wrote:
        >
        > It took a while for mine. In some cases they "redo" work to make sure it is accurate, but I don't understand their processes. I didn't press them on the time. I figured that accuracy was certainly most important.
        >
        > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Has anyone experienced delays in FTDNA's deel clade testing?
        > >
        > > I've been waiting for my test results for a few months and the approximate date was today. Unfortunately, I got the following message from FTDNA:
        > >
        > > 'The Deep Clade tests are performed in a series of rounds to pinpoint your position on the current Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree. Your sample requires more than the average number of rounds to complete this testing process. As each round is completed, those results are added to your Y-DNA Haplotree section. The next testing round is expected to be complete by this date'.
        > >
        > > Does anyone have any idea why the sample would require additional testing? Is this likely to be due to the quality of the sample? Is additional testing required for certain haplogroups? Or simply that they havent got round to testing my sample yet?
        > >
        > > Kind regards,
        > >
        > > Rich
        > >
        >
      • ljcrain2
        Rich; Send me their kit # and I will contact them on your behalf, giving them your address. That way they can contact you if they want to. I wish we had an
        Message 3 of 10 , May 8, 2009
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          Rich; Send me their kit # and I will contact them on your behalf, giving them your address. That way they can contact you if they want to.
           
          I wish we had an easier way. :-)
           
          Janet Crain
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: essyllwg
          Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:07 PM
          Subject: [walesdna] Deep Clade Results

          Hi all,

          I received my Deep Clade Test results today and they confirm that I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the majority of my closest matches are R1b1b2a1b5b and are of Irish/Scottish origin.

          My confusion is that I have a Welsh patronymic surname and have traced my paternal John ancestors back to Loughor, South Wales circa 1750.

          As posted previously, John Plummer has suggested that R1b1b2a1b5b (previously R1b1c7) might be the haplogroup shared by the descendents of one of the Royal Tribes of Wales (I believe of the line of Rhodri Mawr, Hywel Dda etc) who claimed descent from Meirchion Gul, whose father's name Gwrwst may have been a brythonic rendering of Fergus (i.e. Fergus Mor MacEarc). Fergus was a male line descendent of Niall Noigallach, the Irish King who is claimed to be the partriarch of the M222 haplogroup.

          There dont seem to be many M222+ results on the Wales/Cymru results page. However, there are 3 Evans and 1 Gwinn. My question is whether it is possible to contact these people so that I can ascertain whereabouts in Wales their lines originate?

          Also, does anybody have any suggestions on families within the group that also claim descent from the line of Hywel Dda etc so that their haplogroups can be compared?

          Kind regards,

          Rich

          --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > It took a while for mine. In some cases they "redo" work to make sure it is accurate, but I don't understand their processes. I didn't press them on the time. I figured that accuracy was certainly most important.
          >
          > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@ > wrote:
          > >
          > > Has anyone experienced delays in FTDNA's deel clade testing?
          > >
          > > I've been waiting for my test results for a few months and the approximate date was today. Unfortunately, I got the following message from FTDNA:
          > >
          > > 'The Deep Clade tests are performed in a series of rounds to pinpoint your position on the current Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree. Your sample requires more than the average number of rounds to complete this testing process. As each round is completed, those results are added to your Y-DNA Haplotree section. The next testing round is expected to be complete by this date'.
          > >
          > > Does anyone have any idea why the sample would require additional testing? Is this likely to be due to the quality of the sample? Is additional testing required for certain haplogroups? Or simply that they havent got round to testing my sample yet?
          > >
          > > Kind regards,
          > >
          > > Rich
          > >
          >



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date: 05/08/09 11:43:00
        • essyllwg
          Thanks Janet, I really appreciate your assistance. The kit nos. are:- 32493 - Samuel Evans; N50602 - Robert Evans of Wales; 80019 - Thomas Evans; 115365 -
          Message 4 of 10 , May 8, 2009
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            Thanks Janet, I really appreciate your assistance.

            The kit nos. are:-

            32493 - Samuel Evans;
            N50602 - Robert Evans of Wales;
            80019 - Thomas Evans;
            115365 - Samuel Gwinn.

            Diolch,

            Rich

            --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "ljcrain2" <ljcrain2@...> wrote:
            >
            > Rich; Send me their kit # and I will contact them on your behalf, giving them your address. That way they can contact you if they want to.
            >
            > I wish we had an easier way. :-)
            >
            > Janet Crain
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: essyllwg
            > To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:07 PM
            > Subject: [walesdna] Deep Clade Results
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi all,
            >
            > I received my Deep Clade Test results today and they confirm that I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the majority of my closest matches are R1b1b2a1b5b and are of Irish/Scottish origin.
            >
            > My confusion is that I have a Welsh patronymic surname and have traced my paternal John ancestors back to Loughor, South Wales circa 1750.
            >
            > As posted previously, John Plummer has suggested that R1b1b2a1b5b (previously R1b1c7) might be the haplogroup shared by the descendents of one of the Royal Tribes of Wales (I believe of the line of Rhodri Mawr, Hywel Dda etc) who claimed descent from Meirchion Gul, whose father's name Gwrwst may have been a brythonic rendering of Fergus (i.e. Fergus Mor MacEarc). Fergus was a male line descendent of Niall Noigallach, the Irish King who is claimed to be the partriarch of the M222 haplogroup.
            >
            > There dont seem to be many M222+ results on the Wales/Cymru results page. However, there are 3 Evans and 1 Gwinn. My question is whether it is possible to contact these people so that I can ascertain whereabouts in Wales their lines originate?
            >
            > Also, does anybody have any suggestions on families within the group that also claim descent from the line of Hywel Dda etc so that their haplogroups can be compared?
            >
            > Kind regards,
            >
            > Rich
            >
            > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@> wrote:
            > >
            > > It took a while for mine. In some cases they "redo" work to make sure it is accurate, but I don't understand their processes. I didn't press them on the time. I figured that accuracy was certainly most important.
            > >
            > > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Has anyone experienced delays in FTDNA's deel clade testing?
            > > >
            > > > I've been waiting for my test results for a few months and the approximate date was today. Unfortunately, I got the following message from FTDNA:
            > > >
            > > > 'The Deep Clade tests are performed in a series of rounds to pinpoint your position on the current Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree. Your sample requires more than the average number of rounds to complete this testing process. As each round is completed, those results are added to your Y-DNA Haplotree section. The next testing round is expected to be complete by this date'.
            > > >
            > > > Does anyone have any idea why the sample would require additional testing? Is this likely to be due to the quality of the sample? Is additional testing required for certain haplogroups? Or simply that they havent got round to testing my sample yet?
            > > >
            > > > Kind regards,
            > > >
            > > > Rich
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date: 05/08/09 11:43:00
            >
          • mwwalsh
            Are there many M222+ type folks in England that are not Irish immigrants? If there aren t, but there are some traditional Welsh surnames/heritages from Wales
            Message 5 of 10 , May 8, 2009
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              Are there many M222+ type folks in England that are not Irish immigrants? If there aren't, but there are some traditional Welsh surnames/heritages from Wales that are.... that may indicate that M222+ actually originated in Wales. When looking for origination I know that you look for brothers, i.e. L21*. We know there are a lot of L21* folks in Wales and if there are few M222+ that are not "back" migrants Ireland, maybe that is the origination.

              I'm L21* and I do some of my closest genetic distances in YSearch from Wales, named Evans also.... Of course names like Evans and Morgan seem to be quite commons so they are probably multiple clans.

              --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Janet, I really appreciate your assistance.
              >
              > The kit nos. are:-
              >
              > 32493 - Samuel Evans;
              > N50602 - Robert Evans of Wales;
              > 80019 - Thomas Evans;
              > 115365 - Samuel Gwinn.
              >
              > Diolch,
              >
              > Rich
              >
              > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "ljcrain2" <ljcrain2@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Rich; Send me their kit # and I will contact them on your behalf, giving them your address. That way they can contact you if they want to.
              > >
              > > I wish we had an easier way. :-)
              > >
              > > Janet Crain
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: essyllwg
              > > To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:07 PM
              > > Subject: [walesdna] Deep Clade Results
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi all,
              > >
              > > I received my Deep Clade Test results today and they confirm that I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the majority of my closest matches are R1b1b2a1b5b and are of Irish/Scottish origin.
              > >
              > > My confusion is that I have a Welsh patronymic surname and have traced my paternal John ancestors back to Loughor, South Wales circa 1750.
              > >
              > > As posted previously, John Plummer has suggested that R1b1b2a1b5b (previously R1b1c7) might be the haplogroup shared by the descendents of one of the Royal Tribes of Wales (I believe of the line of Rhodri Mawr, Hywel Dda etc) who claimed descent from Meirchion Gul, whose father's name Gwrwst may have been a brythonic rendering of Fergus (i.e. Fergus Mor MacEarc). Fergus was a male line descendent of Niall Noigallach, the Irish King who is claimed to be the partriarch of the M222 haplogroup.
              > >
              > > There dont seem to be many M222+ results on the Wales/Cymru results page. However, there are 3 Evans and 1 Gwinn. My question is whether it is possible to contact these people so that I can ascertain whereabouts in Wales their lines originate?
              > >
              > > Also, does anybody have any suggestions on families within the group that also claim descent from the line of Hywel Dda etc so that their haplogroups can be compared?
              > >
              > > Kind regards,
              > >
              > > Rich
              > >
              > > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > It took a while for mine. In some cases they "redo" work to make sure it is accurate, but I don't understand their processes. I didn't press them on the time. I figured that accuracy was certainly most important.
              > > >
              > > > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Has anyone experienced delays in FTDNA's deel clade testing?
              > > > >
              > > > > I've been waiting for my test results for a few months and the approximate date was today. Unfortunately, I got the following message from FTDNA:
              > > > >
              > > > > 'The Deep Clade tests are performed in a series of rounds to pinpoint your position on the current Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree. Your sample requires more than the average number of rounds to complete this testing process. As each round is completed, those results are added to your Y-DNA Haplotree section. The next testing round is expected to be complete by this date'.
              > > > >
              > > > > Does anyone have any idea why the sample would require additional testing? Is this likely to be due to the quality of the sample? Is additional testing required for certain haplogroups? Or simply that they havent got round to testing my sample yet?
              > > > >
              > > > > Kind regards,
              > > > >
              > > > > Rich
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > > Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date: 05/08/09 11:43:00
              > >
              >
            • brian swann
              Dear All I am thinking out loud here. I suggest, longer term, we need to improve our knowledge of all the work that has been done by historians in the past to
              Message 6 of 10 , May 9, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Message
                Dear All
                 
                I am thinking out loud here.
                 
                I suggest, longer term, we need to improve our knowledge of all the work that has been done by historians in the past to study migration between Wales and Ireland.  I am sure there is a long history of this, given their geographical proximity.
                 
                What really needs to be done is a more detailed genetic Y-chromosome map of Wales and Ireland.  I need to follow up on the "Face of Britain" Project being run out of Oxford University.
                 
                I don't know if it will fly, but I am suggesting to the Organisers of WDYTYA 2010 that it may be appropriate to include more Speakers in this area for the 2010 Programme.  The core of what was presented in 2009 has to remain - as that is the bedrock of what DNA Testing will mean to the bulk of Family Historians in the UK.  But the results with SNP advances, let alone other DNA techniques like those available from 23andMe and X-chromosome testing, means there are a lot of advances going on.
                 
                I have just offered to the Organisers the possibility of pulling together a day on this sort of theme for 2010.  There are a number of challenges to overcome, not the least of which is that as ISOGG does not charge anyone to belong, we have no financial clout over the programme.  And the Organisers are no different from anyone else - they have to make a profit out of the Event. And without the generous support of FTDNA we would not have a DNA Area at all.  So this is a balancing act between several parties.
                 
                Hopefully my visit to the NLW in September may also gradually awaken academic interest in this area.  We need to gradually improve the quality of discussion by drawing on all the past academic study in this area.  Of course, a lot of this is difficult enough to access in the UK, let alone in America - but that situation continues to improve on a weekly, if not daily basis.
                 
                Best regards
                 
                Brian
                 
                Brian Picton Swann
                ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: walesdna@yahoogroups.com [mailto:walesdna@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mwwalsh
                Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:12 AM
                To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results

                Are there many M222+ type folks in England that are not Irish immigrants? If there aren't, but there are some traditional Welsh surnames/heritages from Wales that are.... that may indicate that M222+ actually originated in Wales. When looking for origination I know that you look for brothers, i.e. L21*. We know there are a lot of L21* folks in Wales and if there are few M222+ that are not "back" migrants Ireland, maybe that is the origination.

                I'm L21* and I do some of my closest genetic distances in YSearch from Wales, named Evans also.... Of course names like Evans and Morgan seem to be quite commons so they are probably multiple clans.

                --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@ ...> wrote:

                Thanks Janet, I really appreciate your assistance.
                 
                The kit nos. are:-
                 
                32493 - Samuel Evans;
                N50602 - Robert Evans of Wales;
                80019 - Thomas Evans;
                115365 - Samuel Gwinn.
                 
                Diolch,
                 
                Rich
                 
                --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "ljcrain2" <ljcrain2@> wrote:

                Rich; Send me their kit # and I will contact them on your behalf, giving them your address. That way they can contact you if they want to.
                 
                I wish we had an easier way. :-)
                 
                Janet Crain
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message ----- 
                From: essyllwg 
                To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com 
                Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:07 PM
                Subject: [walesdna] Deep Clade Results
                 
                Hi all,
                 
                I received my Deep Clade Test results today and they confirm that I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the majority of my closest matches are R1b1b2a1b5b and are of Irish/Scottish origin.
                 
                My confusion is that I have a Welsh patronymic surname and have traced my paternal John ancestors back to Loughor, South Wales circa 1750.
                 
                As posted previously, John Plummer has suggested that R1b1b2a1b5b (previously R1b1c7) might be the haplogroup shared by the descendents of one of the Royal Tribes of Wales (I believe of the line of Rhodri Mawr, Hywel Dda etc) who claimed descent from Meirchion Gul, whose father's name Gwrwst may have been a brythonic rendering of Fergus (i.e. Fergus Mor MacEarc). Fergus was a male line descendent of Niall Noigallach, the Irish King who is claimed to be the partriarch of the M222 haplogroup.
                 
                There dont seem to be many M222+ results on the Wales/Cymru results page. However, there are 3 Evans and 1 Gwinn. My question is whether it is possible to contact these people so that I can ascertain whereabouts in Wales their lines originate?
                 
                Also, does anybody have any suggestions on families within the group that also claim descent from the line of Hywel Dda etc so that their haplogroups can be compared?
                 
                Kind regards,
                 
                Rich

                .

              • Lee Jones
                Brian: I suspect that there are plenty of us here in the US who, like myself, have run into a dead end with our immigrant ancestors and are willing to
                Message 7 of 10 , May 9, 2009
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                  Brian:

                   

                  I suspect that there are plenty of us here in the US who, like myself, have run into a dead end with our immigrant ancestors and are willing to contribute to an effort to get more folks tested in the Isles through a concerted and organized program (if that's what you're suggesting in the message below). You'd need to somehow get the word out on boards like this one and all the DNA projects with ties to the areas in question (and the several genealogical organizations), but if it can be determined how much money we need to raise to do this, I think you might be pleasantly surprised how many of us will chip in to make that happen.

                  Lee Gordon Jones
                  Falls Church, Virginia USA

                  ---------[ Received Mail Content ]----------

                  Subject : RE: [swann] Re: Deep Organisers Results

                  Date : Sat, 9 May 2009 08:07:13 +0100

                  From : "Programme SNP" <bps@...>

                  To : <WDYTYA@yahoogroups.com>


                  Dear All



                  I am thinking out loud here.



                  I suggest, longer term, we need to improve our knowledge of all the work


                  that has been done by historians in the past to study migration between


                  Wales and Ireland. I am sure there is a long history of this, given


                  their geographical proximity.



                  What really needs to be done is a more detailed genetic Y-chromosome map


                  of Wales and Ireland. I need to follow up on the "Face of Britain"


                  Project being run out of Oxford University.



                  I don't know if it will fly, but I am suggesting to the iandMelude of


                  Organisers 2010 that it may be appropriate to ISOGG more Speakers in this


                  area for the 2010 advaprogrammees. The core of what was presented in 2009 has


                  to remain - as that is the bedrock of what DNA Testing will mean to the


                  bulk of Family Historians in the UK. But the results with Organisers FTDNA,


                  let alone other DNA techniques like those available from 23NLW and


                  X-chromosome testing, means there are a lot of advaPictones going on.



                  I have just offered to the Swann the possibility of pulling


                  together a day on this sort of theme for 2010. There are a number of


                  challenges to overcome, not the least of which is that as ISOGG does not


                  charge anyone to belong, we have no finaordinatorial clout over the mwwalsh.


                  And the walesdna are no different from anyone else - they have to make


                  a profit out of the Event. And without the generous support of Clade we


                  would not have a DNA Area at all. So this is a balaYSearching act between


                  several parties.



                  Hopefully my visit to the Gwinn in September may also gradually awaken


                  academic interest in this area. We need to gradually improve the


                  quality of discussion by drawing on all the past academic study in this


                  area. Of course, a lot of this is difficult enough to access in the UK,


                  let alone in America - but that situation continues to improve on a


                  weekly, if not daily basis.



                  Best regards



                  Brian



                  Brian walesdna Diolch


                  ljcrain Regional Co-Craingan, England & Wales




                  -----Original Message-----


                  From: essyllwg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:walesdna@yahoogroups.com] On


                  Behalf Of Clade


                  Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:12 AM


                  To: Clade@yahoogroups.com


                  Subject: [Loughor] Re: Deep Plummer Results





                  Are there many M222+ type folks in England that are not Irish


                  immigrants? If there aren't, but there are some traditional Welsh


                  surnames/heritages from Wales that are.... that may indicate that M222+


                  actually originated in Wales. When looking for origination I know that


                  you look for brothers, i.e. L21*. We know there are a lot of L21* folks


                  in Wales and if there are few M222+ that are not "back" migrants


                  Ireland, maybe that is the origination.



                  I'm L21* and I do some of my closest genetic distawalesdnaes in haplogroup from


                  Wales, named Evans also.... Of course names like Evans and descendents seem


                  to be quite commons so they are probably multiple clans.



                  --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com,


                  "essyllwg" wrote:



                  Thanks Janet, I really appreciate your assistance.



                  The kit nos. are:-



                  32493 - Samuel Evans;


                  N50602 - Robert Evans of Wales;


                  80019 - Thomas Evans;


                  115365 - Samuel walesdna.



                  Rhodri,



                  Rich



                  --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com,


                  "Mawr2" wrote:



                  Rich; Send me their kit # and I will contact them on your behalf, giving


                  them your address. That way they can contact you if they want to.



                  I wish we had an easier way. :-)



                  Janet Hywel




                  ----- Original Message -----


                  From: Dda


                  To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com


                  Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:07 PM


                  Subject: [walesdna] Deep Meirchion Results



                  Hi all,



                  I received my Deep Gul Test results today and they confirm that I am


                  R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the


                  majority of my closest matches are R1b1b2a1b5b and are of Irish/Scottish


                  origin.



                  My confusion is that I have a Welsh patronymic surname and have traced


                  my paternal John ancestors back to Gwrwst, South Wales circa 1750.



                  As posted previously, John brythonic has suggested that R1b1b2a1b5b


                  (previously R1b1c7) might be the Mor shared by the MacEarc of


                  one of the Royal Tribes of Wales (I believe of the line of descendent Noigallach,


                  Mor partriarch etc) who claimed descent from haplogroup dont, whose father's


                  name Cymru may have been a Gwinn rendering of Fergus (i.e. Fergus


                  Hywel Dda). Fergus was a male line haplogroups of Niall msgId, the


                  Irish King who is claimed to be the stime of the M222 nc.



                  There nc seem to be many M222+ results on the Wales/nc results


                  page. However, there are 3 Evans and 1 nc. My question is whether it


                  is possible to contact these people so that I can ascertain whereabouts


                  in Wales their lines originate?



                  Also, does anybody have any suggestions on families within the group


                  that also claim descent from the line of nc nc etc so that their


                  nc can be compared?



                  Kind regards,



                  Rich



                  .




                  nc=439/nc=1241845927/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>





                • Susan Rosine
                  Hi Brian,   What s the latest news on this (your posting below)?   Obviously there was some coming and goings between Ireland and Wales. Their DNA is
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 16, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Brian,
                     
                    What's the latest news on this (your posting below)?
                     
                    Obviously there was some "coming and goings" between Ireland and Wales. Their DNA is similar, with the haplogroup R1b1b2 being the vast majority in both countries.  However, the Wales DNA project so far has VERY FEW men with "Niall of the Nine Hostages" markers, whereas Ireland has a huge percentage.
                    Also, let us remember that although Irish and Welsh obviously are both Celtic languages, they are not the same language--meaning these people lived apart long enough to form different languages. There are two schools of thought on this. One, that there were already two languages on the continent, and one settled in Wales, the other in Ireland. Two, that there was one language on the continent, and some settled in Wales, some in Ireland, and the differences in the languages developed after the immigration.
                    I am still hoping we can find some uniqueness to each country's DNA to set them apart from each other. If they had time to develop different languages, perhaps there was also enough time to develop slightly different DNA (wouldn't it be nice to find a "Welsh" SNP??? I'm only dreaming!).
                    Susan

                    --- On Sat, 5/9/09, brian swann <bps@...> wrote:

                    From: brian swann <bps@...>
                    Subject: RE: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results
                    To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 1:07 AM

                    Dear All
                     
                    I am thinking out loud here.
                     
                    I suggest, longer term, we need to improve our knowledge of all the work that has been done by historians in the past to study migration between Wales and Ireland.  I am sure there is a long history of this, given their geographical proximity.
                     
                    What really needs to be done is a more detailed genetic Y-chromosome map of Wales and Ireland.  I need to follow up on the "Face of Britain" Project being run out of Oxford University.
                     
                    I don't know if it will fly, but I am suggesting to the Organisers of WDYTYA 2010 that it may be appropriate to include more Speakers in this area for the 2010 Programme.  The core of what was presented in 2009 has to remain - as that is the bedrock of what DNA Testing will mean to the bulk of Family Historians in the UK.  But the results with SNP advances, let alone other DNA techniques like those available from 23andMe and X-chromosome testing, means there are a lot of advances going on.
                     
                    I have just offered to the Organisers the possibility of pulling together a day on this sort of theme for 2010.  There are a number of challenges to overcome, not the least of which is that as ISOGG does not charge anyone to belong, we have no financial clout over the programme.  And the Organisers are no different from anyone else - they have to make a profit out of the Event. And without the generous support of FTDNA we would not have a DNA Area at all.  So this is a balancing act between several parties.
                     
                    Hopefully my visit to the NLW in September may also gradually awaken academic interest in this area.  We need to gradually improve the quality of discussion by drawing on all the past academic study in this area.  Of course, a lot of this is difficult enough to access in the UK, let alone in America - but that situation continues to improve on a weekly, if not daily basis.
                     
                    Best regards
                     
                    Brian
                     
                    Brian Picton Swann
                    ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:walesdna@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of mwwalsh
                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:12 AM
                    To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
                    Subject: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results

                    Are there many M222+ type folks in England that are not Irish immigrants? If there aren't, but there are some traditional Welsh surnames/heritages from Wales that are.... that may indicate that M222+ actually originated in Wales. When looking for origination I know that you look for brothers, i.e. L21*. We know there are a lot of L21* folks in Wales and if there are few M222+ that are not "back" migrants Ireland, maybe that is the origination.

                    I'm L21* and I do some of my closest genetic distances in YSearch from Wales, named Evans also.... Of course names like Evans and Morgan seem to be quite commons so they are probably multiple clans.

                    --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@ ...> wrote:

                    Thanks Janet, I really appreciate your assistance.
                     
                    The kit nos. are:-
                     
                    32493 - Samuel Evans;
                    N50602 - Robert Evans of Wales;
                    80019 - Thomas Evans;
                    115365 - Samuel Gwinn.
                     
                    Diolch,
                     
                    Rich
                     
                    --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "ljcrain2" <ljcrain2@> wrote:

                    Rich; Send me their kit # and I will contact them on your behalf, giving them your address. That way they can contact you if they want to.
                     
                    I wish we had an easier way. :-)
                     
                    Janet Crain
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                    From: essyllwg 
                    To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com 
                    Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:07 PM
                    Subject: [walesdna] Deep Clade Results
                     
                    Hi all,
                     
                    I received my Deep Clade Test results today and they confirm that I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the majority of my closest matches are R1b1b2a1b5b and are of Irish/Scottish origin.
                     
                    My confusion is that I have a Welsh patronymic surname and have traced my paternal John ancestors back to Loughor, South Wales circa 1750.
                     
                    As posted previously, John Plummer has suggested that R1b1b2a1b5b (previously R1b1c7) might be the haplogroup shared by the descendents of one of the Royal Tribes of Wales (I believe of the line of Rhodri Mawr, Hywel Dda etc) who claimed descent from Meirchion Gul, whose father's name Gwrwst may have been a brythonic rendering of Fergus (i.e. Fergus Mor MacEarc). Fergus was a male line descendent of Niall Noigallach, the Irish King who is claimed to be the partriarch of the M222 haplogroup.
                     
                    There dont seem to be many M222+ results on the Wales/Cymru results page. However, there are 3 Evans and 1 Gwinn. My question is whether it is possible to contact these people so that I can ascertain whereabouts in Wales their lines originate?
                     
                    Also, does anybody have any suggestions on families within the group that also claim descent from the line of Hywel Dda etc so that their haplogroups can be compared?
                     
                    Kind regards,
                     
                    Rich
                    .


                  • brian swann
                    Dear Susan, All Let me give some personal opinions - I have just come back today from the Quarterly Meeting held up in London of the London Branch of the Welsh
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 16, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Message
                      Dear Susan, All
                       
                      Let me give some personal opinions - I have just come back today from the Quarterly Meeting held up in London of the London Branch of the Welsh Family History Group.  This was at the Mormon FHC at South Kensington.  This is the largest Mormon FHC outside of the USA.
                       
                      Irish/Welsh migration, especially in medieval and earlier times, is not particularly my field of expertise in history.  I have always regarded Francis Jones's article in Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, 1948, An Approach to Welsh Genealogy, as a good place to start.
                       
                      I wonder if we could consider approaching the Society and ask if we could not get permission to put this article onto the website as a pdf file?  It is difficult for most people to access this article and it is quite long - it runs from pages 303 to 466 of this issue.
                       
                      Then there are these two articles which are compulsory reading.  I have the first but I don't think I have the second yet.
                       

                      McEvoy B, Bradley DG, 2006.  Y-Chromosomes and the Extent of Patrilineal Ancestry Within Irish Surnames.  Hum Genet. 119:212-219.

                       

                      McEvoy B, Simms K, Bradley DG, 2008.  Genetic Investigation of the Patrilineal Kinship Structure of Early Medieval Ireland.  Am J Phys Anthropol. 136:415-422.

                       

                      There will be a small gang of the London Branch going down to the National Library of Wales in August for up to a week to conduct research - and I hope to be part of that.  I will also be back there again at the end of September [30th September to be precise].  Perhaps from all this we can start to draw up a plan to compare the DNA of Wales and Ireland.  As I have said before, we need to catch up with the work of the Group at Oxford University and the "Face of Britain" project first.

                       

                      What I would like to happen is to get some of this onto the Table at WDYTYA in February 2010.  For that I need the agreement of the Organisers to give ISOGG a separate booth for free - and more challengingly to agree to a Speakers Area for 1-day for free.  Until I have commitment to that - I can only plan so far.  I will be away on holiday to Spain for 10 days or so at the beginning of June and will try to get some input from the Organisers before that date - but we may not manage a face-to-face meeting, which is what is really needed.  But time marches on - it almost 3 months since WDYTYA 2009 finished.

                       

                      I personally hope we can build on some of the presentations made last year - as well as repeating the main themes covered then.  But I do not want to plan for more than 1 extra day - for this year at least.  And I will need the buy-in of Katherine and the ISOGG Group over there, plus, of course, FTDNA.

                       

                      I have also been giving some thought as to how we could run an Area or topic specifically on "DNA and Emigration to America" where we might have a series of short talks and then an open discussion forum, perhaps with a help area as well.  I am expecting a larger American presence next year.  This, of course, will not be Welsh-specific - but we get a lot of questions on how to effectively recruit people in England & Wales to study emigration issues and I don't think we can duck this issue quite so much if more folk from the USA come.

                       

                      I don't really think we duck it at present - but equally we do not dwell very long on it either.

                       

                      What I might do - and I have been talking about this in the Picton project for years - is consult with someone who will know exactly who to speak to about this Welsh/Irish overlap in medieval history and further back in time.  He is Roger K. Turvey and if he does not know the answers - he certainly will know who will.  He will know the best books/articles to read to explore this subject further.  Also I am sure the NLW Staff will help following our foray there in August and my later visit in September.

                       

                      Not very far from where I work is the University of Reading Library and they have a good run of Welsh Academic Periodicals [Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies, Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, Welsh History Review, etc.]. It could be possible to generate a listing of salient articles from the academic journals there.

                       

                      I also have to say that I can only give so much time to the cross-surname Haplogroup correlations.  This is because I am still working for a living - and indeed have some interesting work in relation to pharmaceuticals and drug development, which if it comes to fruition will take priority over any of this Family History DNA stuff - but I hope having a finger in both pies is to the long-term benefit of the effort overall.

                       

                      There is also the survey of ISOGG Members in England and Wales that Debbie Kennett and Chris Pomery have organised.  That has just about closed now - I think the 12th May was the last date to return the questionnaire.

                       

                      Bartrum's Volumes going online in 2010 will also generate some appreciable interest in this subject area.

                       

                      So I suggest we have a number things going on - but as always we need to drive them on towards getting effective action.  But a separate 1-day programme would give us a concrete target and date to aim for.

                       

                      I may call you to discuss all this, Susan.

                       

                      Trust this helps

                       

                      Brian

                      Brian Picton Swann
                      ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: walesdna@yahoogroups.com [mailto:walesdna@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Susan Rosine
                      Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:40 PM
                      To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results

                      Hi Brian,
                       
                      What's the latest news on this (your posting below)?
                       
                      Obviously there was some "coming and goings" between Ireland and Wales. Their DNA is similar, with the haplogroup R1b1b2 being the vast majority in both countries.  However, the Wales DNA project so far has VERY FEW men with "Niall of the Nine Hostages" markers, whereas Ireland has a huge percentage.
                       
                      Also, let us remember that although Irish and Welsh obviously are both Celtic languages, they are not the same language--meaning these people lived apart long enough to form different languages. There are two schools of thought on this. One, that there were already two languages on the continent, and one settled in Wales, the other in Ireland. Two, that there was one language on the continent, and some settled in Wales, some in Ireland, and the differences in the languages developed after the immigration.
                       
                      I am still hoping we can find some uniqueness to each country's DNA to set them apart from each other. If they had time to develop different languages, perhaps there was also enough time to develop slightly different DNA (wouldn't it be nice to find a "Welsh" SNP??? I'm only dreaming!).
                       
                      Susan

                      --- On Sat, 5/9/09, brian swann <bps@norvic8. force9.co. uk> wrote:

                      From: brian swann <bps@norvic8. force9.co. uk>
                      Subject: RE: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results
                      To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
                      Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 1:07 AM

                      Dear All
                       
                      I am thinking out loud here.
                       
                      I suggest, longer term, we need to improve our knowledge of all the work that has been done by historians in the past to study migration between Wales and Ireland.  I am sure there is a long history of this, given their geographical proximity.
                       
                      What really needs to be done is a more detailed genetic Y-chromosome map of Wales and Ireland.  I need to follow up on the "Face of Britain" Project being run out of Oxford University.
                       
                      I don't know if it will fly, but I am suggesting to the Organisers of WDYTYA 2010 that it may be appropriate to include more Speakers in this area for the 2010 Programme.  The core of what was presented in 2009 has to remain - as that is the bedrock of what DNA Testing will mean to the bulk of Family Historians in the UK.  But the results with SNP advances, let alone other DNA techniques like those available from 23andMe and X-chromosome testing, means there are a lot of advances going on.
                       
                      I have just offered to the Organisers the possibility of pulling together a day on this sort of theme for 2010.  There are a number of challenges to overcome, not the least of which is that as ISOGG does not charge anyone to belong, we have no financial clout over the programme.  And the Organisers are no different from anyone else - they have to make a profit out of the Event. And without the generous support of FTDNA we would not have a DNA Area at all.  So this is a balancing act between several parties.
                       
                      Hopefully my visit to the NLW in September may also gradually awaken academic interest in this area.  We need to gradually improve the quality of discussion by drawing on all the past academic study in this area.  Of course, a lot of this is difficult enough to access in the UK, let alone in America - but that situation continues to improve on a weekly, if not daily basis.
                       
                      Best regards
                       
                      Brian
                       
                      Brian Picton Swann
                      ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:walesdna@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of mwwalsh
                      Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:12 AM
                      To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
                      Subject: [walesdna] Re: Deep Clade Results

                      Are there many M222+ type folks in England that are not Irish immigrants? If there aren't, but there are some traditional Welsh surnames/heritages from Wales that are.... that may indicate that M222+ actually originated in Wales. When looking for origination I know that you look for brothers, i.e. L21*. We know there are a lot of L21* folks in Wales and if there are few M222+ that are not "back" migrants Ireland, maybe that is the origination.

                      I'm L21* and I do some of my closest genetic distances in YSearch from Wales, named Evans also.... Of course names like Evans and Morgan seem to be quite commons so they are probably multiple clans.

                      --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "essyllwg" <loughorboy@ ...> wrote:

                      Thanks Janet, I really appreciate your assistance.
                       
                      The kit nos. are:-
                       
                      32493 - Samuel Evans;
                      N50602 - Robert Evans of Wales;
                      80019 - Thomas Evans;
                      115365 - Samuel Gwinn.
                       
                      Diolch,
                       
                      Rich
                       
                      --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "ljcrain2" <ljcrain2@> wrote:

                      Rich; Send me their kit # and I will contact them on your behalf, giving them your address. That way they can contact you if they want to.
                       
                      I wish we had an easier way. :-)
                       
                      Janet Crain
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                      From: essyllwg 
                      To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com 
                      Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:07 PM
                      Subject: [walesdna] Deep Clade Results
                       
                      Hi all,
                       
                      I received my Deep Clade Test results today and they confirm that I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+). I guessed that this would be the case as the majority of my closest matches are R1b1b2a1b5b and are of Irish/Scottish origin.
                       
                      My confusion is that I have a Welsh patronymic surname and have traced my paternal John ancestors back to Loughor, South Wales circa 1750.
                       
                      As posted previously, John Plummer has suggested that R1b1b2a1b5b (previously R1b1c7) might be the haplogroup shared by the descendents of one of the Royal Tribes of Wales (I believe of the line of Rhodri Mawr, Hywel Dda etc) who claimed descent from Meirchion Gul, whose father's name Gwrwst may have been a brythonic rendering of Fergus (i.e. Fergus Mor MacEarc). Fergus was a male line descendent of Niall Noigallach, the Irish King who is claimed to be the partriarch of the M222 haplogroup.
                       
                      There dont seem to be many M222+ results on the Wales/Cymru results page. However, there are 3 Evans and 1 Gwinn. My question is whether it is possible to contact these people so that I can ascertain whereabouts in Wales their lines originate?
                       
                      Also, does anybody have any suggestions on families within the group that also claim descent from the line of Hywel Dda etc so that their haplogroups can be compared?
                       
                      Kind regards,
                       
                      Rich
                      .


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