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Re: [RE][walesdna] Re: Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA

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  • Susan Rosine
    All good points! My father is also R-L21*. Does everyone in this group know that currently FTDNA has lowered the price of testing for the L21 SNP to only $29??
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 2, 2009
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      All good points! My father is also R-L21*. Does everyone in this group know that currently FTDNA has lowered the price of testing for the L21 SNP to only $29?? If you are someone who needs to test for this SNP (i.e., you're R-P312+), now is the time!!
      It would be very helpful if everyone who can afford it in these difficult financial times would get a Deep Clade test done, and also make sure you've tested out to 67 markers.
      Susan

      --- On Fri, 2/27/09, mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@...> wrote:


      From: mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@...>
      Subject: [RE][walesdna] Re: Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA
      To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 12:54 PM


      Susan, I think I understand what you are saying here, "DNA may not
      help us solve this. Here's why. If a group of R1b1 men came to
      England, while another group of R1b1 came to Wales, we might not be
      able to tell them apart by DNA--although certainly we can through
      language and culture."

      I agree that we can not generally and conclusively tell where a group
      can from by their DNA. However, I disagree in that DNA may be one of
      the best objective tools we have that can get us closer and closer the
      more people that are tested and the deeper they test.

      Per your example, how would we know know if a group of R1b1 men came
      from England to Wales or if this group came from Wales? Actually, it
      is more complicated as they could very well come from Normandy or
      Ireland and probably a few other places as well.

      However, with deeper testing, we see that R1b1 men are not just R1b1
      men. I now know that I'm L21+ but M222-, aka as R-L21*. I'm not just
      an "R1b1" man anymore since I know my deeper clade SNP's. There are a
      lot of Irish that are M222+ so I don't fit into that group, which may
      well be Gaelic. I'm also U106- so my odds of being an Anglo-Saxon or
      Norman R1b1 type man are lower.

      My genetic Y signature is clearly in a cluster of people that are from
      Wales (at least so far) in the modern historical era. If we ever
      find men from some other location that would be huge. For example, if
      we found several folks from Hampshire, which is in South Central
      England, I'd say that increases the odds that I was some kind of
      Briton that got pushed West from Hampshire to Wales. If found some
      people in Normandy that matched us, although I don't think we will,
      chances are good we are Norman related. If we never find any one like
      us from anywhere else, I'd say we probably were in Wales at the time
      of the Roman invasion and could very well be one of those tribes I cited.

      The net is that the more people test to greater granularity, the more
      we will all learn. That's the bad news about R1b1 type men is there
      is a lot of us so we need more detailed testing to break us into
      smaller groups. The good news is that our ancestors were successful
      in some manner or we wouldn't be here.

      --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, Susan Rosine <basenji_luvr@ ...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > I think part of our problem will always be "Who are/were the Welsh?".
      > If one looks at the Welsh today, they are a blend of many invaders.
      I think culture-wise and language-wise, it's much easier to identify
      the Welsh than DNA-wise!! I think the best we can do DNA-wise is to
      test people who have traced their lineage back as far as those famous
      old Welsh genealogies go! We will probably find several Welsh
      signatures; I agree with the others on that.
      > I've heard different arguments about where the Welsh came from. My
      understanding is that many believe that they once inhabited most/all
      of the island, and then were pushed back to present Wales. Others have
      claimed that probably these people came and settled where Wales is
      today, and never really made much headway into the eastern part of the
      island. DNA may not help us solve this. Here's why. If a group of R1b1
      men came to England, while another group of R1b1 came to Wales, we
      might not be able to tell them apart by DNA--although certainly we can
      through language and culture. So many questions and thoughts I
      have!!! And I'm certainly no expert, so it's interesting to read every
      else's postings.
      > Susan
    • Susan Rosine
      Brian, thank you SO MUCH for the update. It all looks very promising!! Susan ... From: brian swann Subject: RE: [RE][walesdna] Re:
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 2, 2009
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        Brian, thank you SO MUCH for the update. It all looks very promising!!
        Susan

        --- On Sun, 3/1/09, brian swann <bps@...> wrote:


        From: brian swann <bps@...>
        Subject: RE: [RE][walesdna] Re: Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA
        To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: kvjjmmborges@...
        Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 12:00 AM


        Dear All
         
        Let me try and inject some ideas as to what will become available, and some creative speculation - following two days at Who Do You Think You Are, Live at London Olympia.
         
        A very interesting project underway is described at:
         
        http://www.peopleof thebritishisles. org/press/
         
         
        There are samples of Welsh DNA in here - Pembrokeshire is specifically mentioned.  This will be a project which significantly redraws the genetic map of the UK.  Download and read Newsletter No. 2 and then look at other pages which describes the aims of the project in detail.
         
        Mike Hammer's presentation at WDYTYA was very impressive as to what will evolve in SNP testing for Haplogroups like R1b and I.
         
        I have spoken to a number of relevant people at the WDYTYAL event discussing the possibility of getting more than one volume of the Golden Grove MSS online.  In particular I had a very useful dialog with two representatives of the NLW - and they are going to come back to me next week about meeting further with them over the coming weeks/months.  This will probably mean a trip to Aberystwyth and a presentation on DNA and Welsh Family History, etc.
         
        Peter Bartrum's material will go online from the University of Aberystwyth -so this is the next logical step.
         
        When we have both of those resources online - we can start to give some serious consideration about approaching the College of Arms.  I did get agreement at the Conference to go back into the Library of the College for a full day to examine the Welsh MSS there from the Herald in attendance at WDYTYA.
         
        It will take time to achieve all this -- but there has never been a greater emphasis in the UK about putting material useful to Family Historians online, world-wide.  All I can say is that I hope the NLW will continue to thrust forward in this area, and I will build bridges to the folk who take the decisions in that area.
         
        Best regards
         
        Brian
         
        Brian Picton Swann
        ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales


        -----Original Message-----
        From: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:walesdna@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Susan Rosine
        Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 5:22 PM
        To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
        Subject: Re: [RE][walesdna] Re: Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA


        I think part of our problem will always be "Who are/were the Welsh?".
        If one looks at the Welsh today, they are a blend of many invaders. I think culture-wise and language-wise, it's much easier to identify the Welsh than DNA-wise!! I think the best we can do DNA-wise is to test people who have traced their lineage back as far as those famous old Welsh genealogies go! We will probably find several Welsh signatures; I agree with the others on that.

        I've heard different arguments about where the Welsh came from. My understanding is that many believe that they once inhabited most/all of the island, and then were pushed back to present Wales. Others have claimed that probably these people came and settled where Wales is today, and never really made much headway into the eastern part of the island. DNA may not help us solve this. Here's why. If a group of R1b1 men came to England, while another group of R1b1 came to Wales, we might not be able to tell them apart by DNA--although certainly we can through language and culture. So many questions and thoughts I have!!! And I'm certainly no expert, so it's interesting to read every else's postings.
        Susan

        --- On Mon, 2/23/09, mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@gmail. com> wrote:

        From: mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@gmail. com>
        Subject: [RE][walesdna] Re: Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA
        To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
        Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 8:54 AM

        Lee,

        My thoughts are that there is not a single "Welsh signature," but
        probably there are many, even of the pre-Classical (pre-Roman) timeframe.

        From what I know, the Ordavices, Deceangli, Cornovii, Demetae and
        Silures were the pre-Roman Celtic tribes of Wales. We know that the
        Silures were described as "swarthy" and darker by the Romans so I
        think it is apparent these different tribes had some genetic
        differences, perhaps significant.
        http://www.britaine xpress.com/ wales/history/ celtic-tribes. htm
        http://www.britaine xpress.com/ wales/history/ iron-age. htm

        Also, it is reported that Britons from eastern and central parts of
        Great Britain moved west into Wales during the times of the Romans and
        Anglo-Saxon invasions. They may be other Celtic tribes, the Belgae or
        who knows what that are mixed in as well.

        I've ready a couple of history books, but know almost nothing about
        the archeological findings of Wales. Anybody out there who can help
        educate or direct us on archeology? Do we have any Celtic experts out
        there with opinions or background information?

        --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "Lee Jones" <leegjones@. ..> wrote:
        >
        > I have some questions for the DNA mavins on the project. How far
        back would we need to look to detect a distinct "Welsh" signature? At
        what point does that Welsh signature differentiate into tribes, clans,
        families, etc.? Knowing that, could we determine that our DNA points
        to North Wales, South Wales, etc.?
        >
        > In my case, a Thomas Jones shows up in Goochland Co. Virginia in
        1741 when he acquires land grants for himself his two eldest sons. An
        exchange of letters between two of his great-grand children suggests
        that Thomas and wife (name unknown) came from Wales. But that's where
        the trail runs cold. Obviously, tracing a Thomas Jones back to Wales
        some time before 1741 (which could be anywhere between 1690 and 1740)
        with nothing more to go on is a lost cause. It would be helpful if at
        some point my DNA could point me to a particular area of Wales.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Lee Gordon Jones
        > Falls Church, Virginia
      • mwwalsh
        It looks like the project has been running for a while. When do they expect to release results? ... and some creative speculation -�following two days at
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 2, 2009
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          It looks like the project has been running for a while. When do they
          expect to release results?

          --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, Susan Rosine <basenji_luvr@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Brian, thank you SO MUCH for the update. It all looks very promising!!
          > Susan
          >
          > --- On Sun, 3/1/09, brian swann <bps@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: brian swann <bps@...>
          > Subject: RE: [RE][walesdna] Re: Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA
          > To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
          > Cc: kvjjmmborges@...
          > Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 12:00 AM
          >
          >
          > Dear All
          > �
          > Let me try and inject some ideas as to what will become available,
          and some creative speculation -�following two days at Who Do You Think
          You Are, Live at London Olympia.
          > �
          > A very interesting project underway is described at:
          > �
          > http://www.peopleof thebritishisles. org/press/
          > �
          > �
          > There are samples of Welsh DNA in here - Pembrokeshire is
          specifically mentioned.� This will be a project which significantly
          redraws the genetic map of the UK.� Download and read Newsletter No. 2
          and then look at other pages which describes the aims of the project
          in detail.
          > �
          > Mike Hammer's presentation at WDYTYA was very impressive as to what
          will evolve in SNP testing for Haplogroups like R1b and I.
          > �
          > I have spoken to a number of relevant people at the WDYTYAL event
          discussing the possibility of getting more than one volume of the
          Golden Grove MSS online.� In particular I had a very useful dialog
          with two representatives of the NLW - and they are going to come back
          to me next week about meeting further with them over the coming
          weeks/months.� This will probably mean a trip to Aberystwyth and a
          presentation on DNA and Welsh Family History, etc.
          > �
          > Peter Bartrum's material will go online from the University of
          Aberystwyth -so this is the next logical step.
          > �
          > When we have both of those resources online - we can start to give
          some serious consideration about approaching the College of Arms.� I
          did get agreement at the Conference to go back into the Library of the
          College for a full day to examine the Welsh MSS there from the Herald
          in attendance at WDYTYA.
          > �
          > It will take time to achieve all this -- but there has never been a
          greater emphasis in the UK about putting material useful to Family
          Historians online, world-wide.� All I can say is that I hope the NLW
          will continue to thrust forward in this area, and I will build bridges
          to the folk who take the decisions in that area.
          > �
          > Best regards
          > �
          > Brian
          > �
          > Brian Picton Swann
          > ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:walesdna@ yahoogroups. com]
          On Behalf Of Susan Rosine
          > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 5:22 PM
          > To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
          > Subject: Re: [RE][walesdna] Re: Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA
          >
          >
          > I think part of our problem will always be "Who are/were the Welsh?".
          > If one looks at the Welsh today, they are a blend of many invaders.
          I think culture-wise and language-wise, it's much easier to identify
          the Welsh than DNA-wise!! I think the best we can do DNA-wise is to
          test people who have traced their lineage back as far as those famous
          old Welsh genealogies go! We will probably find several Welsh
          signatures; I agree with the others on that.
          >
          > I've heard different arguments about where the Welsh came from. My
          understanding is that many believe that they once inhabited most/all
          of the island, and then were pushed back to present Wales. Others have
          claimed that probably these people came and settled where Wales is
          today, and never really made much headway into the eastern part of the
          island. DNA may not help us solve this. Here's why. If a group of R1b1
          men came to England, while another group of R1b1 came to Wales, we
          might not be able to tell them apart by DNA--although certainly we can
          through language and culture. So many questions and thoughts I have!!!
          And I'm certainly no expert, so it's interesting to read every else's
          postings.
          > Susan
          >
          > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@gmail. com> wrote:
          >
          > From: mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@gmail. com>
          > Subject: [RE][walesdna] Re: Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA
          > To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
          > Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 8:54 AM
          >
          > Lee,
          >
          > My thoughts are that there is not a single "Welsh signature," but
          > probably there are many, even of the pre-Classical (pre-Roman)
          timeframe.
          >
          > From what I know, the Ordavices, Deceangli, Cornovii, Demetae and
          > Silures were the pre-Roman Celtic tribes of Wales. We know that the
          > Silures were described as "swarthy" and darker by the Romans so I
          > think it is apparent these different tribes had some genetic
          > differences, perhaps significant.
          > http://www.britaine xpress.com/ wales/history/ celtic-tribes. htm
          > http://www.britaine xpress.com/ wales/history/ iron-age. htm
          >
          > Also, it is reported that Britons from eastern and central parts of
          > Great Britain moved west into Wales during the times of the Romans and
          > Anglo-Saxon invasions. They may be other Celtic tribes, the Belgae or
          > who knows what that are mixed in as well.
          >
          > I've ready a couple of history books, but know almost nothing about
          > the archeological findings of Wales. Anybody out there who can help
          > educate or direct us on archeology? Do we have any Celtic experts out
          > there with opinions or background information?
          >
          > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "Lee Jones" <leegjones@ ..> wrote:
          > >
          > > I have some questions for the DNA mavins on the project. How far
          > back would we need to look to detect a distinct "Welsh" signature? At
          > what point does that Welsh signature differentiate into tribes, clans,
          > families, etc.? Knowing that, could we determine that our DNA points
          > to North Wales, South Wales, etc.?
          > >
          > > In my case, a Thomas Jones shows up in Goochland Co. Virginia in
          > 1741 when he acquires land grants for himself his two eldest sons. An
          > exchange of letters between two of his great-grand children suggests
          > that Thomas and wife (name unknown) came from Wales. But that's where
          > the trail runs cold. Obviously, tracing a Thomas Jones back to Wales
          > some time before 1741 (which could be anywhere between 1690 and 1740)
          > with nothing more to go on is a lost cause. It would be helpful if at
          > some point my DNA could point me to a particular area of Wales.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > >
          > > Lee Gordon Jones
          > > Falls Church, Virginia
          >
        • Joseph C. Lewis
          I would like to say that while I do not understand everything discussed in this chain I find the whole of it to be very interesting.  You certainly have
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 2, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            I would like to say that while I do not understand everything discussed in this chain I find the whole of it to be very interesting.  You certainly have sparked a renewed interest in me from your conversations.  I intend on advancing my DNA test to the full 67 markers and continuing the Deep Clade test which states I am of group R1b1b2 and encourages me to order the Y-DNA SNP extension test. 
             
            I find the topic super fascinating and thank you all for it.  You are making an impact just from talking about it!
             
            J.Lewis
            Kit # 44100
             


             

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