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Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA

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  • rjh450872
    Brian, Could you expand on your comment: There is no genetic marker for Welsh/Wales as there is for the Normans or any other tribal race you care to name ?
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 23, 2009
      Brian,

      Could you expand on your comment: "There is no genetic marker for
      Welsh/Wales as there is for the Normans or any other tribal race you
      care to name"? Are you saying there is no genetic marker for
      Welsh/Wales and no genetic markers for NormansÂ…. Or are you saying:
      there is no genetic marker for Welsh/Wales unlike with Normans where
      there is a genetic marker?

      If you believe there is a genetic marker for Normans, could you
      explain and identify this marker.

      Thanks

      Bob Haskins
      www.hoskinsdna.org
      rjhaskins@...
    • mwwalsh
      Great question, Bob. I noticed the same issue but forgot to bring it up. Brian, Could you expand on your comment: There is no genetic marker for
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 23, 2009
        Great question, Bob. I noticed the same issue but forgot to bring it up.

        "Brian, Could you expand on your comment: "There is no genetic marker
        for Welsh/Wales as there is for the Normans or any other tribal race
        you care to name"?

        The implication made, I think, is that there IS a genetic marker for
        the Normans. It may be, as I was told a year or two ago, that Brian
        is referring to DYS492 for an R-M269 individual. Some people (I think
        it is John M. - who is highly respected) feel like a value of 13 is
        typical of Normans.

        Since these STR measured markers go up and down (it is not a single
        unique event measurement) it dubious to use a single value like this
        as "the" indicator. All of this is a good reason to make sure you do
        your deep clade SNP testing as well.

        Perhaps more importantly, the Norman invaders were a mixed group of
        true Norse-men (which I'd expect to have a lot of Hg I), Bretons
        (which could be very similar to Britons and Welsh), and Flemish. A lot
        of things could be Norman.

        --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "rjh450872" <rjhaskins@...> wrote:
        >
        > Brian,
        >
        > Could you expand on your comment: "There is no genetic marker for
        > Welsh/Wales as there is for the Normans or any other tribal race you
        > care to name"? Are you saying there is no genetic marker for
        > Welsh/Wales and no genetic markers for NormansÂ…. Or are you saying:
        > there is no genetic marker for Welsh/Wales unlike with Normans where
        > there is a genetic marker?
        >
        > If you believe there is a genetic marker for Normans, could you
        > explain and identify this marker.
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Bob Haskins
        > www.hoskinsdna.org
        > rjhaskins@...
        >
      • mwwalsh
        Great work, Brian! We appreciate your research.
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 23, 2009
          Great work, Brian! We appreciate your research.

          --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "brian swann" <bps@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Susan
          >
          > Well - you will at least be pleased to know that the title of my
          > presentation is:
          >
          > "Reverse Genealogy - Tracing People Forwards in England and Wales and
          > Recruiting Them for DNA Testing"
          >
          > After the meeting at Carmarthen of the Dyfed FHS -- I am going to have a
          > serious attempt, hopefully with the support of the Committee - to see if
          > the other volumes of the Golden Grove MSS cannot be put online. This
          > would then be a very good start on these "ancient pedigrees" - along
          > with Peter Bartrum's compilations which will go online in the next 18
          > months or so. That would then give us a lever to make some further
          > progress.
          >
          > My pipe dream would be to get the Welsh MSS at the College of Arms
          > online. They have a fantastic, under-appreciated resource - but they
          > are essentially a private organisation. I will at least ask them at
          > WDYTYA what their attitude might be.
          >
          > We are saying the same thing - I am just indicating what it involves on
          > this side of the pond. I also believe Americans could do a lot more to
          > recruit UK participants in all DNA projects - but they need to tailor
          > their approaches accordingly. Most British folk would not be very
          > interested in American FH problems and source materials -- but DNA
          > recruitment can change all of that. I have more Picton folk recruited
          > outside of the UK than in it. They are, in general, more responsive.
          >
          > Best regards
          >
          > Brian
          >
          > Brian Picton Swann
          > ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: walesdna@yahoogroups.com [mailto:walesdna@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Susan Rosine
          > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:20 AM
          > To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [walesdna] Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Brian (and All)
          >
          > Well, I am still going to remain enthusiastic! I think if we can get
          > more people to test 37-67 markers, and more people to do the Deep Clade
          > testing, we may find that there ARE genetic markers for the Welsh. Of
          > course, I am talking about those of us who can trace our line(s) back
          > before the Norman Conquest. It would be great to find more people who
          > can actually trace their lines back to those famous old pedigrees that
          > you mentioned.
          > It's all about getting more of the Welsh (or people of Welsh descent,
          > such as some Americans), to test, test, test!!! Brian, I thank you very
          > much for the work you're already doing in the UK!!
          >
          > Susan
          >
          > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, brian swann <bps@norvic8.
          > <mailto:bps%40norvic8.force9.co.uk> force9.co.uk> wrote:
          >
          > From: brian swann <bps@norvic8. <mailto:bps%40norvic8.force9.co.uk>
          > force9.co.uk>
          > Subject: RE: [walesdna] Let's make this the year of Welsh DNA
          > To: walesdna@yahoogroup <mailto:walesdna%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
          > Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 3:40 PM
          >
          > Dear Susan, Linda
          >
          > Let me restrain or reorientate your enthusiasm a little bit.
          >
          > I am just repeating what I have said on other occasions. I believe the
          > Welsh have a lot to contribute to DNA in Family History research. I
          > think the long Welsh pedigrees which survive recorded in 15-17th century
          > MSS are probably unique to Wales and reflect the Welsh bardic tradition.
          >
          > The "Advenae" who came to Wales represent a different population mix --
          > but some interesting surnames that can be linked to Normano/English
          > origins and invaders.
          >
          > As the ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator for England and Wales - I am very
          > circumspect never to lump the Welsh in with the English (My wife, who is
          > Welsh would never forgive me) -- but as above, that is not to say that
          > the English have not invaded and settled in Wales since the Norman
          > conquest.
          >
          > I was at least down in Carmarthen this past Saturday spreading the word
          > about DNA Testing at the AGM of the Dyfed FHS - and will be doing the
          > same next weekend at WDYTYA at London, Olympia.
          >
          > This is just to begin to get DNA onto the radar screen of the folk you
          > need -- otherwise your pleas will remain pipe dreams. And ideas of Deep
          > Clade testing or 38-67 markers are unknown territory to almost all Welsh
          > Family Historians at present who actually live in Wales - they would not
          > have a clue what you are talking about. There is no genetic marker for
          > Welsh/Wales as there is for the Normans or any other tribal race you
          > care to name.
          >
          > Best regards
          >
          > Brian
          >
          > Brian Picton Swann
          > ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales
          >
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