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Great news for R-L21 Wales Modal I (aka 17-14-10)

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  • mikewww7
    One of the newly discovered SNP s is L371. There is post I noticed on this at rootsweb:
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 10, 2011
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      One of the newly discovered SNP's is L371. There is post I noticed on this at rootsweb:
      http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-01/1294273652

      This is exciting in that it may definitively mark a subclade of people that are Welsh.

      The recommendation was to look at Ysearch ID TFAAX as a good candidate for L371. I loaded that haplotype into the R-L21* haplotypes spreadsheet that keep track of.

      This looks like a good fit with the deep ancestral variety that I've labeled "R-L21* 1830-W1-A". This is roughly equivalent of what is also known (and previously identified by Robert Hughes) as "17-14-10" or "Wales Modal I".

      The full off-modal signature is 448=17 456=14 450=10 (hence the
      17-14-10) 449=30 617=13 413a=22 385=12,14.

      From what I can see in the L21 spreadsheet, if you are L21+ and 385=12,14 and 448=17 all the rest typically fall into place, or nearly do.

      We don't know how wide a group L371 might fall into so my initial thought is that if you are L21+ and have any two of the above
      7 (full) STR off-modal alleles you should probably investigate more
      deeply.

      It appears that this group is common across Wales but also shows up in
      Ireland, Scotland and England.

      These two categories in the Wales DNA project look like a clear fit:
      R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10 surname PUGH)
      R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10)
      http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

      In my spreadsheet, if I was one of the following, I'd have already ordered L371 on the Advanced Orders menu (with SNP checked.)
      yTFAAX Gilbert zzzunk TFAAX
      f36039 Gough Ireland, Ulster, Co. Down 1830-W1-A 2B579
      f143379 McKee Scotland 1830-W1-A 9MD22
      f111398 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A X64ZY
      f117952 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A XZSJY
      f16717 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A X3RXH 1830-W1-A
      f95004 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A
      f93906 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A
      f75901 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A DW8KR
      f42106 Roberts zzzunk 1830-W1-A 8MSQC
      f62242 zzzunk Wales 1830-W1-A UYZCQ
      fN2351 Lewis Reese abt 1801 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales d189 R1b1b2a1b5
      f85661 Dicks,b-UK,appears in Nfld.1791;b1774 R1b1b2a1b5
      f156335 Morgan Evans, 1845, Cardiganshire, Wales R1b1b2

      Anyone else who has looked at this? Please comment to make sure I am looking at this correctly.

      Regards, Mike
    • wes prichard
      One grandfather was a Texan. With Welsh, Socts, English and Irish roots and includes the royal familes of Wales, Ireland,Scotland, England, Denmark,France..Gen
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 10, 2011
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        One grandfather was a Texan. With Welsh, Socts, English and Irish roots and includes the royal familes of Wales, Ireland,Scotland, England, Denmark,France..Gen Daniel Morgan a of Welsh descent is a first cousin. I am also 3rd cousin to Thomas Jefferson also of Welsh descent and I am of the Prichard and Lewis line of Welsh descent. Lewis Prichard started the Lewis line according to the Legend of Lewis. My 18th Great Grandfather is Robert the Bruce and my 19th Great grandfather is Edward 1 "Longshanks" the Hammer of the Scots and Owen Tudor who a Welshman who married Henry V widow Catherine of Valoise, the Princess of France is his wife.   When you add in the mix of Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror and all the the rest.... How can we pin down a gnome and subset to say anybody is Welsh.  Acording to some records my granfather came over from Wales on the Brig constance in 1630... ...........We have the records that do go back to real people
        so for those of us.... who are American... Mom father was born a Prussian in Berlin and her mothers people were from Saxony.... How can we really tell.  I checked and I am related to at least half of all American Presidents including every single President from John F Kennedy onward.. I'm releated to him thru his Mom's Fitzgerald side.   Thats the big questions.......
        On Thu, 2/10/11, mikewww7 <mwwdna@...> wrote:

        From: mikewww7 <mwwdna@...>
        Subject: [walesdna] Great news for R-L21 Wales Modal I (aka 17-14-10)
        To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 2:51 PM

         
        One of the newly discovered SNP's is L371. There is post I noticed on this at rootsweb:
        http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-01/1294273652

        This is exciting in that it may definitively mark a subclade of people that are Welsh.

        The recommendation was to look at Ysearch ID TFAAX as a good candidate for L371. I loaded that haplotype into the R-L21* haplotypes spreadsheet that keep track of.

        This looks like a good fit with the deep ancestral variety that I've labeled "R-L21* 1830-W1-A". This is roughly equivalent of what is also known (and previously identified by Robert Hughes) as "17-14-10" or "Wales Modal I".

        The full off-modal signature is 448=17 456=14 450=10 (hence the
        17-14-10) 449=30 617=13 413a=22 385=12,14.

        From what I can see in the L21 spreadsheet, if you are L21+ and 385=12,14 and 448=17 all the rest typically fall into place, or nearly do.

        We don't know how wide a group L371 might fall into so my initial thought is that if you are L21+ and have any two of the above
        7 (full) STR off-modal alleles you should probably investigate more
        deeply.

        It appears that this group is common across Wales but also shows up in
        Ireland, Scotland and England.

        These two categories in the Wales DNA project look like a clear fit:
        R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10 surname PUGH)
        R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10)
        http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

        In my spreadsheet, if I was one of the following, I'd have already ordered L371 on the Advanced Orders menu (with SNP checked.)
        yTFAAX Gilbert zzzunk TFAAX
        f36039 Gough Ireland, Ulster, Co. Down 1830-W1-A 2B579
        f143379 McKee Scotland 1830-W1-A 9MD22
        f111398 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A X64ZY
        f117952 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A XZSJY
        f16717 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A X3RXH 1830-W1-A
        f95004 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A
        f93906 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A
        f75901 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A DW8KR
        f42106 Roberts zzzunk 1830-W1-A 8MSQC
        f62242 zzzunk Wales 1830-W1-A UYZCQ
        fN2351 Lewis Reese abt 1801 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales d189 R1b1b2a1b5
        f85661 Dicks,b-UK,appears in Nfld.1791;b1774 R1b1b2a1b5
        f156335 Morgan Evans, 1845, Cardiganshire, Wales R1b1b2

        Anyone else who has looked at this? Please comment to make sure I am looking at this correctly.

        Regards, Mike



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      • sandyfoster morrison
          So wish I could trace my T1a matrichondria to all of you! With our ancestry.com/Miller Flewellen Foster family tree I m stuck in the 1700 s with Susannah
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 11, 2011
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          So wish I could trace my T1a matrichondria to all of you! With our ancestry.com/Miller Flewellen Foster family tree I'm stuck in the 1700's with Susannah Patrick. I suspect courthouse records were burned and destroyed in NC and across a wide swath of the south with Revolutionary and Civil Wars. But I still plan to do some onsite digging.
           
          Through our Flewellen/Flewellin/Fluellen surname and all phonetic derivatives of the Welsh "Llewellyn" family members who emigrated to VA in 1630--as well as Lewis, Williams, Kidd, Hudson, Johnson surnames--my family follows similar ancestral roots across the pond. I understand from my research that there are about 100 emigrating families in the early 1600's who are interrelated and lay claim to George Washington, Robert E Lee, Roger Williams, Alfred the Great, Plantagenants, and on and on. My ancestral search began with patriarchial/matriarchial 1800's gggrandparents in Longview, Texas. The familiar feel of everyone and everything shared on this site makes me long for dna proof of homelands.
           
          I'm looking forward to watching NBC's Who Do You Think You Are? tonight and Tim McGraw's ancestral story which leads to George Washington...as ours does. Maybe one day archeology will catch up to science and I'll have the proof I seek. Thanks for sharing!
           
          sandy foster morrison

          --- On Thu, 2/10/11, wes prichard <wesprichard@...> wrote:

          From: wes prichard <wesprichard@...>
          Subject: Re: [walesdna] Great news for R-L21 Wales Modal I (aka 17-14-10)
          To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 5:08 PM

           
          One grandfather was a Texan. With Welsh, Socts, English and Irish roots and includes the royal familes of Wales, Ireland,Scotland, England, Denmark,France..Gen Daniel Morgan a of Welsh descent is a first cousin. I am also 3rd cousin to Thomas Jefferson also of Welsh descent and I am of the Prichard and Lewis line of Welsh descent. Lewis Prichard started the Lewis line according to the Legend of Lewis. My 18th Great Grandfather is Robert the Bruce and my 19th Great grandfather is Edward 1 "Longshanks" the Hammer of the Scots and Owen Tudor who a Welshman who married Henry V widow Catherine of Valoise, the Princess of France is his wife.   When you add in the mix of Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror and all the the rest.... How can we pin down a gnome and subset to say anybody is Welsh.  Acording to some records my granfather came over from Wales on the Brig constance in 1630... ...........We have the records that do go back to real people
          so for those of us.... who are American... Mom father was born a Prussian in Berlin and her mothers people were from Saxony.... How can we really tell.  I checked and I am related to at least half of all American Presidents including every single President from John F Kennedy onward.. I'm releated to him thru his Mom's Fitzgerald side.   Thats the big questions.......
          On Thu, 2/10/11, mikewww7 <mwwdna@...> wrote:

          From: mikewww7 <mwwdna@...>
          Subject: [walesdna] Great news for R-L21 Wales Modal I (aka 17-14-10)
          To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 2:51 PM

           
          One of the newly discovered SNP's is L371. There is post I noticed on this at rootsweb:
          http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-01/1294273652

          This is exciting in that it may definitively mark a subclade of people that are Welsh.

          The recommendation was to look at Ysearch ID TFAAX as a good candidate for L371. I loaded that haplotype into the R-L21* haplotypes spreadsheet that keep track of.

          This looks like a good fit with the deep ancestral variety that I've labeled "R-L21* 1830-W1-A". This is roughly equivalent of what is also known (and previously identified by Robert Hughes) as "17-14-10" or "Wales Modal I".

          The full off-modal signature is 448=17 456=14 450=10 (hence the
          17-14-10) 449=30 617=13 413a=22 385=12,14.

          From what I can see in the L21 spreadsheet, if you are L21+ and 385=12,14 and 448=17 all the rest typically fall into place, or nearly do.

          We don't know how wide a group L371 might fall into so my initial thought is that if you are L21+ and have any two of the above
          7 (full) STR off-modal alleles you should probably investigate more
          deeply.

          It appears that this group is common across Wales but also shows up in
          Ireland, Scotland and England.

          These two categories in the Wales DNA project look like a clear fit:
          R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10 surname PUGH)
          R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10)
          http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

          In my spreadsheet, if I was one of the following, I'd have already ordered L371 on the Advanced Orders menu (with SNP checked.)
          yTFAAX Gilbert zzzunk TFAAX
          f36039 Gough Ireland, Ulster, Co. Down 1830-W1-A 2B579
          f143379 McKee Scotland 1830-W1-A 9MD22
          f111398 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A X64ZY
          f117952 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A XZSJY
          f16717 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A X3RXH 1830-W1-A
          f95004 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A
          f93906 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A
          f75901 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A DW8KR
          f42106 Roberts zzzunk 1830-W1-A 8MSQC
          f62242 zzzunk Wales 1830-W1-A UYZCQ
          fN2351 Lewis Reese abt 1801 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales d189 R1b1b2a1b5
          f85661 Dicks,b-UK,appears in Nfld.1791;b1774 R1b1b2a1b5
          f156335 Morgan Evans, 1845, Cardiganshire, Wales R1b1b2

          Anyone else who has looked at this? Please comment to make sure I am looking at this correctly.

          Regards, Mike



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        • sandyfoster morrison
          I reversed the order of my ancestry.com tree name. Correction: Foster Miller Flewellen Tree ... From: sandyfoster morrison
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 11, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            I reversed the order of my ancestry.com tree name. Correction: Foster Miller Flewellen Tree

            --- On Fri, 2/11/11, sandyfoster morrison <sandyfostermorrison@...> wrote:

            From: sandyfoster morrison <sandyfostermorrison@...>
            Subject: Re: [walesdna] Great news for R-L21 Wales Modal I (aka 17-14-10)
            To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 9:10 AM

             
             
            So wish I could trace my T1a matrichondria to all of you! With our ancestry.com/Miller Flewellen Foster family tree I'm stuck in the 1700's with Susannah Patrick. I suspect courthouse records were burned and destroyed in NC and across a wide swath of the south with Revolutionary and Civil Wars. But I still plan to do some onsite digging.
             
            Through our Flewellen/Flewellin/Fluellen surname and all phonetic derivatives of the Welsh "Llewellyn" family members who emigrated to VA in 1630--as well as Lewis, Williams, Kidd, Hudson, Johnson surnames--my family follows similar ancestral roots across the pond. I understand from my research that there are about 100 emigrating families in the early 1600's who are interrelated and lay claim to George Washington, Robert E Lee, Roger Williams, Alfred the Great, Plantagenants, and on and on. My ancestral search began with patriarchial/matriarchial 1800's gggrandparents in Longview, Texas. The familiar feel of everyone and everything shared on this site makes me long for dna proof of homelands.
             
            I'm looking forward to watching NBC's Who Do You Think You Are? tonight and Tim McGraw's ancestral story which leads to George Washington...as ours does. Maybe one day archeology will catch up to science and I'll have the proof I seek. Thanks for sharing!
             
            sandy foster morrison

            --- On Thu, 2/10/11, wes prichard <wesprichard@...> wrote:

            From: wes prichard <wesprichard@...>
            Subject: Re: [walesdna] Great news for R-L21 Wales Modal I (aka 17-14-10)
            To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 5:08 PM

             
            One grandfather was a Texan. With Welsh, Socts, English and Irish roots and includes the royal familes of Wales, Ireland,Scotland, England, Denmark,France..Gen Daniel Morgan a of Welsh descent is a first cousin. I am also 3rd cousin to Thomas Jefferson also of Welsh descent and I am of the Prichard and Lewis line of Welsh descent. Lewis Prichard started the Lewis line according to the Legend of Lewis. My 18th Great Grandfather is Robert the Bruce and my 19th Great grandfather is Edward 1 "Longshanks" the Hammer of the Scots and Owen Tudor who a Welshman who married Henry V widow Catherine of Valoise, the Princess of France is his wife.   When you add in the mix of Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror and all the the rest.... How can we pin down a gnome and subset to say anybody is Welsh.  Acording to some records my granfather came over from Wales on the Brig constance in 1630... ...........We have the records that do go back to real people
            so for those of us.... who are American... Mom father was born a Prussian in Berlin and her mothers people were from Saxony.... How can we really tell.  I checked and I am related to at least half of all American Presidents including every single President from John F Kennedy onward.. I'm releated to him thru his Mom's Fitzgerald side.   Thats the big questions.......
            On Thu, 2/10/11, mikewww7 <mwwdna@...> wrote:

            From: mikewww7 <mwwdna@...>
            Subject: [walesdna] Great news for R-L21 Wales Modal I (aka 17-14-10)
            To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 2:51 PM

             
            One of the newly discovered SNP's is L371. There is post I noticed on this at rootsweb:
            http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-01/1294273652

            This is exciting in that it may definitively mark a subclade of people that are Welsh.

            The recommendation was to look at Ysearch ID TFAAX as a good candidate for L371. I loaded that haplotype into the R-L21* haplotypes spreadsheet that keep track of.

            This looks like a good fit with the deep ancestral variety that I've labeled "R-L21* 1830-W1-A". This is roughly equivalent of what is also known (and previously identified by Robert Hughes) as "17-14-10" or "Wales Modal I".

            The full off-modal signature is 448=17 456=14 450=10 (hence the
            17-14-10) 449=30 617=13 413a=22 385=12,14.

            From what I can see in the L21 spreadsheet, if you are L21+ and 385=12,14 and 448=17 all the rest typically fall into place, or nearly do.

            We don't know how wide a group L371 might fall into so my initial thought is that if you are L21+ and have any two of the above
            7 (full) STR off-modal alleles you should probably investigate more
            deeply.

            It appears that this group is common across Wales but also shows up in
            Ireland, Scotland and England.

            These two categories in the Wales DNA project look like a clear fit:
            R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10 surname PUGH)
            R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10)
            http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

            In my spreadsheet, if I was one of the following, I'd have already ordered L371 on the Advanced Orders menu (with SNP checked.)
            yTFAAX Gilbert zzzunk TFAAX
            f36039 Gough Ireland, Ulster, Co. Down 1830-W1-A 2B579
            f143379 McKee Scotland 1830-W1-A 9MD22
            f111398 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A X64ZY
            f117952 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A XZSJY
            f16717 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A X3RXH 1830-W1-A
            f95004 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A
            f93906 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A
            f75901 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A DW8KR
            f42106 Roberts zzzunk 1830-W1-A 8MSQC
            f62242 zzzunk Wales 1830-W1-A UYZCQ
            fN2351 Lewis Reese abt 1801 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales d189 R1b1b2a1b5
            f85661 Dicks,b-UK,appears in Nfld.1791;b1774 R1b1b2a1b5
            f156335 Morgan Evans, 1845, Cardiganshire, Wales R1b1b2

            Anyone else who has looked at this? Please comment to make sure I am looking at this correctly.

            Regards, Mike



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          • Susan Rosine
            Mike, I will send an email out to those folks in our project, and request that they order that SNP.  Susan ... From: mikewww7 Subject:
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 16, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Mike,
              I will send an email out to those folks in our project, and request that they order that SNP. 
              Susan

              --- On Thu, 2/10/11, mikewww7 <mwwdna@...> wrote:

              From: mikewww7 <mwwdna@...>
              Subject: [walesdna] Great news for R-L21 Wales Modal I (aka 17-14-10)
              To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 3:51 PM

               
              One of the newly discovered SNP's is L371. There is post I noticed on this at rootsweb:
              http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-01/1294273652

              This is exciting in that it may definitively mark a subclade of people that are Welsh.

              The recommendation was to look at Ysearch ID TFAAX as a good candidate for L371. I loaded that haplotype into the R-L21* haplotypes spreadsheet that keep track of.

              This looks like a good fit with the deep ancestral variety that I've labeled "R-L21* 1830-W1-A". This is roughly equivalent of what is also known (and previously identified by Robert Hughes) as "17-14-10" or "Wales Modal I".

              The full off-modal signature is 448=17 456=14 450=10 (hence the
              17-14-10) 449=30 617=13 413a=22 385=12,14.

              From what I can see in the L21 spreadsheet, if you are L21+ and 385=12,14 and 448=17 all the rest typically fall into place, or nearly do.

              We don't know how wide a group L371 might fall into so my initial thought is that if you are L21+ and have any two of the above
              7 (full) STR off-modal alleles you should probably investigate more
              deeply.

              It appears that this group is common across Wales but also shows up in
              Ireland, Scotland and England.

              These two categories in the Wales DNA project look like a clear fit:
              R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10 surname PUGH)
              R-L21* WALES GROUP 1 (17-14-10)
              http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

              In my spreadsheet, if I was one of the following, I'd have already ordered L371 on the Advanced Orders menu (with SNP checked.)
              yTFAAX Gilbert zzzunk TFAAX
              f36039 Gough Ireland, Ulster, Co. Down 1830-W1-A 2B579
              f143379 McKee Scotland 1830-W1-A 9MD22
              f111398 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A X64ZY
              f117952 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A XZSJY
              f16717 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A X3RXH 1830-W1-A
              f95004 Pugh Wales 1830-W1-A
              f93906 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A
              f75901 Pugh Wales, Mid, Gwynedd, Merionethshire 1830-W1-A DW8KR
              f42106 Roberts zzzunk 1830-W1-A 8MSQC
              f62242 zzzunk Wales 1830-W1-A UYZCQ
              fN2351 Lewis Reese abt 1801 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales d189 R1b1b2a1b5
              f85661 Dicks,b-UK,appears in Nfld.1791;b1774 R1b1b2a1b5
              f156335 Morgan Evans, 1845, Cardiganshire, Wales R1b1b2

              Anyone else who has looked at this? Please comment to make sure I am looking at this correctly.

              Regards, Mike


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