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Re: Anyone

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  • steveh
    ... Well, yes, it could be said that Christ was antisemitic in his various talks in the gospel accounts, but this was due to circumstances pertaining at the
    Message 1 of 69 , Aug 23, 2011
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      --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "petekaraiskos" <pkcompany@...> wrote:
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      > --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "steveh" <sardisian01@> wrote:
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      > >
      > > Well yes, Pete, you read words like in the lecture course, The Fifth Gospel. But I will make a bold statement, here and now. You don't know what you are reading, and the proof is that all you could do is find one lowly little comment that you (and Diana) can twist to your liking. Does that make sense?
      >
      > Not really... How is the comment being twisted. It's one of our favorites, of course... by all means not the only one Steiner made in that book... and he made many others elsewhere. So how is it "twisting" what he said when we simply supply what he said? The context is given below the quote... anyone can look up the "full" context - depending on what the "full" context means to them... a few paragraphs before and after might be fine for them... the entire book might be better for the "full" context... but wait... you want them to take the entirety of Steiner's work as the "full" context of that statement... and only then... when read in earnest - trying to become an Anthroposophist. That would be the "full" context you seek, right?
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      > > I'm still waiting for your honest assessement of Christ's anti-semitism without referring me back to Diana's remarks.
      > >
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      > Christ wasn't anti-Semitic Steve. Christ was a Jew. Steiner was the anti-Semite. I don't know what more I can add to Diana's remarks...
      >
      > Here's something I wrote on MDC regarding the two translations I supplied earlier however:
      >
      > "This sentiment [anti-Semitism] is reflected in many of Steiner's works. Some of the stuff on the PLANS site is subject to translation from the German versions. For example in "The Fifth Gospel" - a book you can sometimes find at Borders or B&N we find perhaps a difference between translations or versions:
      >
      > From PLANS
      > "[Jesus felt]: All the forces of soul which I believed had been bestowed upon me lead only to the realisation that in the evolution of the Jewish people there is no longer the capacity to reach the heights of Divine revelations." (Steiner, 1913, Fifth Gospel p. 67)
      >
      > From my own copy of the English translation:
      > "As if to sum up everything he [Jesus] had to say on the subject, Jesus told his mother: 'The revelation of ancient Judaism is no longer suitable for the Earth, for the old Jews have passed away; the ancient revelation must be considered worthless on Earth today.'"
      > (Steiner, 1913, Fifth Gospel p. 65)
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      > It is commonly known and agreed that English translations of these works often receive editing - whole sections are missing from the often watered-down English versions that are still available in the original German versions (ever wonder why Waldorf schools ALWAYS teach German?).
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      > So, sometimes we see something that appears particularly strange and we hear accusations that there are errors in translation and so forth. Taking a single quote might be a little careless. Having said this, as one reads Steiner, a pattern emerges that makes it clear what he held as his belief on the above subjects."
      >
      > > It's still early for us, while Diana has bed in her sites. Tomorrow is Wednesday for all of us, and I think she has a job to go to. I think you said you were independent, so maybe dinner can be more than a youtube movie with us. If not, I understand. It can always wait.
      > >
      >
      > Yeah right... like I'm going to plan my evenings around conversations with you...
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      > PK

      Well, yes, it could be said that Christ was antisemitic in his various talks in the gospel accounts, but this was due to circumstances pertaining at the time He was living. Does that make sense?

      Now, Steiner stuck his neck out, just like JB, and also told the truth about how the Jews rejected the Messiah at the turning-point of time. Does that also make sense, Pete, or should Rudolf Steiner grovel in his grave to suit you? The Jews today live in an old-world mentality which rejects the Christ as ever having appeared on earth.

      So, guess what gets to be their destiny? They get to fight the Arabs who have the same affliction as they do. And what is that?

      You tell me. Goodnight :)

      Steve
    • steveh
      ... Peter, I am curious about this reference to Steve s loonier version of it. Do you mean that in comparing the original German to the English translation
      Message 69 of 69 , Aug 26, 2011
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        --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, Peter Staudenmaier <pstaud@...> wrote:
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        > Diana wrote:
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        > > In short Steve: you have been making a case FOR antisemitism. You don't
        > > seem to be quite aware of that, or you don't like how it sounds. But
        > > that is what you are doing. You apparently think you are arguing that
        > > Steiner wasn't antisemitic, but what you have actually done is argue
        > > that Steiner was CORRECT in his antisemitism, because the Jews really
        > > do possess certain negative characteristics, or played a negative role
        > > in the spiritual progress of humanity.
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        >
        > That is indeed the standard anthroposophist line, and it's worth reminding ourselves that Steve's loonier version of it isn't substantively all that different from Steiner's version. Obviously antisemites believe that the beliefs they hold are true; that's why they hold them. As Diana has patiently pointed out, this has nothing whatsoever to do with whether those beliefs are antisemitic.
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        > Let's all pretend, for purposes of wizardly discussion, that every last thing Steiner ever said was absolutely and unequivocally True with a capital occult T. Many of his statements about Jews would still be antisemitic, just as many of his statements about race would still be racist, regardless of their truth.
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        >
        >
        > While they're meditating on that profound mystery, perhaps our suddenly bashful mage-like esoteric listmates could take a moment to read Steve's statements and decide whether they consider these statements antisemitic. It might even provide a clue about some of the ideological common ground that anthroposophy shares with other worldviews. Greetings to all,

        > Peter S.

        Peter, I am curious about this reference to Steve's loonier version of it. Do you mean that in comparing the original German to the English translation that they are close, or are you implying something else, such as Steiner's so-called "unequivocal truth" being subject to critical analysis. Well, if the latter, I agree that it would require a higher faculty of insight in order to go back that far and read the events as they actually occurred, which was what I wrote out from the course, lecture IV.

        Here it is again for review, and thank God for creating these threads for copying text.

        Steve

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/message/20667?threaded=1&l=1
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