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RE: [wc] Joel making sense of anthro-antisemitism

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  • Peter Staudenmaier
    ... I m not sure that would help much, but it is indeed a Joel Wendt kind of question. Or maybe Frank can tell us what a True Joel Wendt is. In any case,
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 20, 2011
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      Tom wrote:


      > It would help me a lot if you could explain just what a "Joel Wendt" is.


      I'm not sure that would help much, but it is indeed a Joel Wendt kind of question. Or maybe Frank can tell us what a True Joel Wendt is. In any case, antisemites hold many different views on what a 'Jew' is. Some of them think Jews are a racial group, others a religious group, others a cultural group, others an ethnic group, and so forth. Steiner's view was a mixture of these various beliefs. He considered Jews racially distinctive, but nonetheless called for the absorption of Jews into the German people. For some anthroposophists, this process was supposed to be primarily cultural -- Jews were to abandon their purportedly Jewish cultural traits and adopt ostensibly German cultural traits -- while for other anthroposophists a principal criterion was religious -- Jews needed to convert to Christianity. A variety of anthroposophists promote similar views today. The underlying notion was and is that Jews as Jews are somehow less than fully German (indeed less than fully human), just as a number of white Americans believe that Puerto Ricans, for example, are less than fully American, precisely by virtue of their distinctiveness from other Americans. That is why Jewishness is such a central problem for anthroposophy's narrative of racial and ethnic evolution and its dim view of racial and ethnic difference and particularity. The continued existence of Jews as Jews, for Steiner and his followers, is an obstacle on the path toward the Universal Human. Greetings to all,


      Peter S.
    • Joel Wendt
      ... given by my mother and father. They did not name me, however, by any of the general categories of nouns which I might have acquired over my life time:
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 21, 2011
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        On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Tom Mellett <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > And now, Joel, if I may ask you the one question you neglected to ask
        > Peter:
        >
        > It would help me a lot if you could explain just what a "Joel Wendt" is.
        >
        > For those not entirely confused about language Joel Wendt is my birth name,
        given by my mother and father. They did not name me, however, by any of the
        general categories of nouns which I might have acquired over my life time:
        son, brother, etc. father, insurance adjuster, lawyer, supreme court clerk
        (Montana), Christian, Wizard, Anthroposophist, dishwasher, cook, mental
        health worker, guy who died twice in one day in the ER, Congregationalist,
        Lutheran, Buddhist, Shaman, idiot, divorced, confused, hopeless romantic,
        phlegmatic, writer of many books no one reads ... I did give myself a few
        "names" over the years: Lazy Bear was one (during my imitate native
        american's phase), "enlightened" was another when I was being very Buddhist.
        When I retired from active work life in 2002, I thought about the "naming"
        thing for a while and had a business card printed: "social philosopher ...
        and occasional fool".

        Peter S. confesses to you the obvious fact that different people think
        different things about those they call Jews, and if Peter was a little bit
        more the scholar he likes to pretend to be, then he would know from Owen
        Barfield's Speaker's Meaning that language has this peculiar quality in
        spades: i.e. meaning is not the dictionary or lexical meaning (which changes
        over time), but only what the speaker means, something not always easy to
        grasp for the reader or the listener.

        Asking What a Joel Wendt is, while seemingly "cute", is besides the point,
        since our birth names are never meant to be descriptive nouns in the same
        way Jew or Catholic is. Peter ducks the point, which suggests the quite
        distinct possibility that his own biases have never lead him to actually
        understanding what Steiner meant, and like all of us (including you, me,
        Peter, Dan et. al.), how we use language varies and miscommunication is
        frequently the norm - ask any one in an intimate relationship.

        Steiner is (obviously) not perfect, nor is anyone we can label (with a
        descriptive noun) Critics or Waldorfian, or anthroposophist. Labels are a
        lazy way of making a point without actually thinking about what words mean.
        I recently wrote a friend who sent me a piece on Nazis, Jews and atheists,
        that there were no Nazis, Jews and atheists - no there there when we use
        generalized categories. All the same everyone needs their individual point
        of view in order to orient themselves within their biography and at this
        stage of the evolution of consciousness the use by our I of general mental
        categories is common. Getting over that tendency is one of the reasons
        Steiner wrote The Philosophy of Spiritual Activity, which contains as the
        last sentence in the original preface this warning: "One must be able to
        confront an idea and experience it, otherwise one will fall into its
        bondage."

        A person who thinks of themselves (or others) as Jews, or French or Critics
        or anthroposophists is simple not inwardly free of the habit of judging
        others so aptly pointed out by the Creator in the Sermon on the Mount via
        the lesson of the mote and the beam. Another person is just like us - an
        immortal spirit learning in the most outrageous school (life) ever invented
        - "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are altogether" sang the
        Beatles (thus my latest incredible book: The Art of God: an actual theory of
        Everything http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/artofgod.html

        therein endeth the preaching of the HLFMB* :-)

        joel

        *now there's a name!


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tom Mellett
        ... A person who thinks of themselves (or others) as Jews, or French or Critics or anthroposophists is simple not inwardly free of the habit of judging
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 21, 2011
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          --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt <joel232001@... wrote:

          A person who thinks of themselves (or others) as Jews, or French or Critics or anthroposophists is simple not inwardly free of the habit of judging others so aptly pointed out by the Creator in the Sermon on the Mount via the lesson of the mote and the beam. Another person is just like us - an immortal spirit learning in the most outrageous school (life) ever invented - "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are altogether" sang the Beatles (thus my latest incredible book: The Art of God: an actual theory of Everything http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/artofgod.html

          therein endeth the preaching of the HLFMB* :-)

          joel

          *now there's a name!
          ====================

          Joel, I love you, man! Still spamming after all these years! Even in the Age of Twitter! You're like an used occult car salesman!

          (On that note, Joel, I wonder if you have thought of disciplining your writing self by means of Twitter. For example, could you compress this entire pontification post into ONE Twitter message? Sorry to scare you, Joel, but it might be a great discipline for you. Could even lead to peer review enough to have you published by someone other than your own self. I'll bet you eat off vanity plates, too!)

          But back to your post, Joel, wait a minute! Look at your own argument here, that people who think of themselves with labels as Jews, etc. --- your normal latter-day Nominalists --- are thereby judging others by such labels.

          But aren't YOU as alleged Realist judging Peter and other Critics here? So what gives you the right to exempt your own portly self from judging them, all the while you (some say hypocritically) point out how judgmental they are? Why, viewed from this perspective, you seem to be cancelling your own argument out. Making it null and void, just like any good Nominalist would. So j'accuse, my brother, you are as much a fucking Nominalist as Peter. Q.E.D. Ergo STFU and SMVD!

          Now as a corollary, Joel, I would like to pose this follow-up question to you:

          Joel Wendt, are you not yourself a Jew?

          If yes, then how would you characterize yourself as a Jew?
          If no, then how would you characterize yourself as not a Jew?

          (also, if yes, are you then ultimately a self-hating Jew?)

          This is a trick question, of course, but not for you my brother Joel, it's really for Peter and the Critics to fall into the trap. Bwah-ha-ha-ha! Soitenly! Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk!

          Father Tom, Judas Priest

          . . . posting on Holy Thursday which celebrates the Last Supper at which Judas did betray Christ. Ah what a wonderful myth! (The Christ story, not the Judas Story. Heyoka! Heyoka! Heyoka!)


          PS Joel, I like your title: _The Art of God: an actual theory of Everything_. Did you know that Alicia, or interpid Swedish correspondent is preparing a book of her own on Canineosophy? Her working title I believe is:
          _The Art of Dog: a Potential Theory of Nothing_
        • Peter Staudenmaier
          ... Though his wares keep changing. Last time we were graced with his presence, Joel opined that Steiner s work is simply incomprehensible today, because
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 21, 2011
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            Tom wrote to Joel:


            > You're like an used occult car salesman!


            Though his wares keep changing. Last time we were graced with his presence, Joel opined that Steiner's work is simply "incomprehensible" today, because Steiner lived a century ago. This is a common claim for esoteric epistemologies, and one reason for the widespread esoteric aversion to history.

            In any case, it is certainly interesting to learn that Joel believes there are no Nazis, Jews, or atheists. Steiner did not share this belief, however. Steiner believed that there is such a thing as Jews. That is why he said and wrote the things he said and wrote about Jews. One of the things Steiner said and wrote about Jews is that Jews as a people should cease to exist. This claim is central to Steiner's teachings about Jews and Jewishness, and represents a core aspect of his overall scheme of racial and ethnic evolution.

            Some anthroposophists embrace Steiner's teachings about Jews. Some anthroposophists deny Steiner's teachings about Jews. Some anthroposophists are unaware of Steiner's teachings about Jews. All of these responses contribute to the persistence of anthroposophist antisemitism today. Anthroposophists who oppose antisemitism would do well to familiarize themselves with Steiner's teachings about Jews and repudiate the antisemitic aspects of those teachings.

            Greetings to all,


            Peter S.
          • Tom Mellett
            ... ============================ Ah, but Peter, you fail to realize and then marvel at Joel s incredibly subtle way of exposing your own anti-semitisn and
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 21, 2011
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              --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, Peter Staudenmaier <pstaud@...> wrote:
              >
              > In any case, it is certainly interesting to learn that Joel believes there are no Nazis, Jews, or atheists. Steiner did not share this belief, however. Steiner believed that there is such a thing as Jews. That is why he said and wrote the things he said and wrote about Jews. One of the things Steiner said and wrote about Jews is that Jews as a people should cease to exist. This claim is central to Steiner's teachings about Jews and Jewishness, and represents a core aspect of his overall scheme of racial and ethnic evolution.
              ============================

              Ah, but Peter, you fail to realize and then marvel at Joel's incredibly subtle way of exposing your own anti-semitisn and racism.

              Joel is just cleverer than you by half, Peter. And he did it in such an "aw shucks" Step'in'Fetchit way (hold on, that's a Negro reference and Joel is Caucasian) --- hmmm, better to say: in a Columbo way! Yes Columbo!

              [NOTE: Columbo is an American pop reference to the bumbling but very successful TV detective Columbo played by Peter Falk.]

              You see, Peter, Joel came on here making his characteristically pompous and megalomaniacal sweeping generalizations about the non-existence of categories like race, gender, Jewry, Gentilism, etc. In short, he was playing the role of a full-bore Nominalist.

              And he played this role or gambit to the hilt, in order to force you to assert the reality existence of categories like Jewry, race, gender, etc., which you did exactly as he had planned.

              So now you, Peter, are in the position of realism which is exactly that of Rudolf Steiner, and therefore, the categories of Jew and non-Jew, and of course, by extension, the categories of race and even gender, are categories which are real, palpable, objective and anything but some pro-semitic and anti-racist scheme of abstract intellectual Nominalistic labeling. You, Peter, have just validated the reality of Semitic and racial categories, just as Rudolf Steiner did a hundred or so years ago!

              He gotcha, Peter!

              Joel Wendt has just hoist you upon your own petard!

              And this event therefore is an event of deepest WHS for THFEH.

              So the score now reads:

              JOEL--- 01
              PETER---00

              Are we ready for Game 2 of the First Set?

              Tom the Gatekeeper, I mean, Scorekeeper
            • Frank Thomas Smith
              Now look what you gone and done, Joel: cause 2 WC inmates to push their respective bottom buttons. Tom s at least was mildly entertaining: You re like an used
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 21, 2011
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                Now look what you gone and done, Joel: cause 2 WC inmates to push their respective bottom buttons. Tom's at least was mildly entertaining:"You're like an used occult car salesman!" - while Peter's button was a rehashing (picture him as a short-order ccok with a greasy apron in a greasy-spoon diner and a unisex WC) the same old BLTs, to wit: "...one reason for the widespread esoteric aversion to history..." and "..One of the things Steiner said and wrote about Jews is that Jews as a people should cease to exist..." and "..Some anthroposophists are unaware of Steiner's teachings about Jews..." and .."anthroposophists who oppose antisemitism would do well to familiarize themselves with Steiner's teachings about...".
                Heard all that crap before? Yeah! How often? How deep is the ocean, how high is the sky?
                Mr. Dan Dugan: I hereby request consideration of a new category for expulsion from the WC: excessive boring and repetitive posts. Peter cannot of course be nuked exp post facto, rather given another (one more) chance.
                Frank

                --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, Peter Staudenmaier <pstaud@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Tom wrote to Joel:
                >
                >
                > > You're like an used occult car salesman!
                >
                >
                > Though his wares keep changing. Last time we were graced with his presence, Joel opined that Steiner's work is simply "incomprehensible" today, because Steiner lived a century ago. This is a common claim for esoteric epistemologies, and one reason for the widespread esoteric aversion to history.
                >
                > In any case, it is certainly interesting to learn that Joel believes there are no Nazis, Jews, or atheists. Steiner did not share this belief, however. Steiner believed that there is such a thing as Jews. That is why he said and wrote the things he said and wrote about Jews. One of the things Steiner said and wrote about Jews is that Jews as a people should cease to exist. This claim is central to Steiner's teachings about Jews and Jewishness, and represents a core aspect of his overall scheme of racial and ethnic evolution.
                >
                > Some anthroposophists embrace Steiner's teachings about Jews. Some anthroposophists deny Steiner's teachings about Jews. Some anthroposophists are unaware of Steiner's teachings about Jews. All of these responses contribute to the persistence of anthroposophist antisemitism today. Anthroposophists who oppose antisemitism would do well to familiarize themselves with Steiner's teachings about Jews and repudiate the antisemitic aspects of those teachings.
                >
                > Greetings to all,
                >
                >
                > Peter S.
                >
              • alicia h.
                ... Wrong: The Spiritual Science of Dog: A Definitive Theory of Everything . Naturally. -a
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 21, 2011
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                  On 21 April 2011 17:49, Tom Mellett <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > PS Joel, I like your title: _The Art of God: an actual theory of Everything_. Did you know that Alicia, or interpid Swedish correspondent is preparing a book of her own on Canineosophy? Her working title I believe is:
                  > _The Art of Dog: a Potential Theory of Nothing_
                  >

                  Wrong: 'The Spiritual Science of Dog: A Definitive Theory of Everything'.

                  Naturally.

                  -a
                • Peter Staudenmaier
                  ... Sure. But I m afraid it would still be game 1 of the first set, since Joel and Frank haven t begun to play yet. The game, after all, involves examining
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 21, 2011
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                    Tom wrote:


                    > Are we ready for Game 2 of the First Set?


                    Sure. But I'm afraid it would still be game 1 of the first set, since Joel and Frank haven't begun to play yet. The game, after all, involves examining textual evidence in historical context. It involves those devilish arguments that nobody every wins. It involves looking at actually existing anthroposophy rather than the Authentic Essence Of True Anthroposophy. Worst of all, for the Joel-and-Frank team, it involves reading Steiner's work.

                    With a few refreshing exceptions, that is a game anthroposophists won't play. Once they change their minds, I am available for as many repetitive sets as they would like. Greetings to all,


                    Peter S.
                  • Joel Wendt
                    On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Peter Staudenmaier wrote: Worst of all, for the Joel-and-Frank team, it involves reading Steiner s work.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 21, 2011
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                      On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Peter Staudenmaier <pstaud@...>wrote:

                      "Worst of all, for the Joel-and-Frank team, it involves reading Steiner's
                      work."

                      Not so. The text never mattered. GA 2, 3 and 4 are about the scientific
                      study of one's own mind. Don't do that first, you'll never understand what
                      Steiner meant half the time, much less make real practical use of what he
                      pointed toward. Its always been about our own thinking, and not using
                      Steiner as an "authority". This just falls in the same lame trap the
                      Society fell into when it collapsed into disarray after Steiner died.
                      Interpreting Steiner's words can only lead to disagreement for the very act
                      of interpreting a text pretends that such a thinking activity leads to
                      knowledge.

                      A text never gives knowledge - only direct personal experience. But Steiner
                      was stuck with a civilization still bound to the intellectual (as if text
                      matters), so he did the best he could under the circumstances, which was
                      considerable. The French post-modernists with their de-constructionism took
                      a courageous step forward, although they missed certain self observational
                      possibilities (such as the inspirational aspects of us telling each other
                      our stories).

                      The textual arguments here are pissing into the wind - nothing is gained,
                      the descent into argument is itself a vanity (me believing I can persuade
                      you toward something you are not inclined to persuade yourself). We need to
                      show each other more respect (although respect sometimes means being
                      confrontational, instead of just nice and wimpy - there there Peter, Joel
                      doesn't want to play the game - so sorry. See War Games, the movie, when
                      even the inhuman AI computer (Joshua) realizes that the only winning move is
                      not to play the game at all.

                      joel


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • petekaraiskos
                      ... Actually, he s exposing STEINER S... ... I was a Step n Fetchit fan as a child... Colombo too... But I think we re dealing with more of a Gomer Pyle
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 21, 2011
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                        --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mellett" <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, Peter Staudenmaier <pstaud@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > In any case, it is certainly interesting to learn that Joel believes there are no Nazis, Jews, or atheists. Steiner did not share this belief, however. Steiner believed that there is such a thing as Jews. That is why he said and wrote the things he said and wrote about Jews. One of the things Steiner said and wrote about Jews is that Jews as a people should cease to exist. This claim is central to Steiner's teachings about Jews and Jewishness, and represents a core aspect of his overall scheme of racial and ethnic evolution.
                        > ============================
                        >
                        > Ah, but Peter, you fail to realize and then marvel at Joel's incredibly subtle way of exposing your own anti-semitisn and racism.
                        >

                        Actually, he's exposing STEINER'S...

                        > Joel is just cleverer than you by half, Peter. And he did it in such an "aw shucks" Step'in'Fetchit way (hold on, that's a Negro reference and Joel is Caucasian) --- hmmm, better to say: in a Columbo way! Yes Columbo!
                        >

                        I was a Step 'n' Fetchit fan as a child... Colombo too... But I think we're dealing with more of a Gomer Pyle here...

                        > [NOTE: Columbo is an American pop reference to the bumbling but very successful TV detective Columbo played by Peter Falk.]
                        >
                        > You see, Peter, Joel came on here making his characteristically pompous and megalomaniacal sweeping generalizations about the non-existence of categories like race, gender, Jewry, Gentilism, etc. In short, he was playing the role of a full-bore Nominalist.
                        >
                        > And he played this role or gambit to the hilt, in order to force you to assert the reality existence of categories like Jewry, race, gender, etc., which you did exactly as he had planned.
                        >

                        If you will read the above that you yourself quoted, you will see, Tom, that Peter asserted no such thing. He talked about Joel's beliefs and then said "STEINER believed that there is such a thing as Jews". Peter, as he always does, left his own beliefs out of the discussion.

                        > So now you, Peter, are in the position of realism which is exactly that of Rudolf Steiner,

                        Um... because you mistook Steiner's position for Peter's?

                        > and therefore, the categories of Jew and non-Jew, and of course, by extension, the categories of race and even gender, are categories which are real, palpable, objective and anything but some pro-semitic and anti-racist scheme of abstract intellectual Nominalistic labeling. You, Peter, have just validated the reality of Semitic and racial categories, just as Rudolf Steiner did a hundred or so years ago!
                        >
                        > He gotcha, Peter!

                        No... I'm pretty sure he got YOU Tom!

                        >
                        > Joel Wendt has just hoist you upon your own petard!
                        >
                        > And this event therefore is an event of deepest WHS for THFEH.
                        >
                        > So the score now reads:
                        >
                        > JOEL--- 01
                        > PETER---00

                        JOEL---01
                        TOM---00


                        > Are we ready for Game 2 of the First Set?
                        >
                        > Tom the Gatekeeper, I mean, Scorekeeper
                        >

                        You'll have to do better than that if you're the one who's going to keep score Tom...


                        BTW... Welcome back Joel!

                        PK
                        Sharks feed in muddy waters!!!
                        http://petekaraiskos.blogspot.com/2010/12/steiner-quotes-jews-racial-progression.html
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