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Re: [Wado Forum] Re: 2005 World Wadokai Championships -Rob

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  • ROBERT CAMPBELL
    Bob, I really appreciate the answer, although I was being a bit rhetorical by asking the question, pointing to the problem in general. I guess we ve already
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 31, 2005
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      Bob,
      I really appreciate the answer, although I was being a
      bit rhetorical by asking the question, pointing to the
      problem in general. I guess we've already taken one of
      the paths you suggest since around five years ago
      but.........I missed all your work in Berlin due to
      being thrown around by toby lots, but the work you did
      with Jaron for a few minutes in the courtyard of the
      guesthouse showed me enough. I did say to Shirley that
      we should get you and her together somehow, she'd
      enjoy the experience. Also I've heard lots about
      Norma, apparently she says the s*** word just like me,
      with an "E" on the end..
      This ain't no invitation, Bob, but if you ever plan to
      come to Britain, I've got a few people who will
      certainly be there!( The last bit is serious)
      Rob.
      --- bnashrei <bnashrei@...> wrote:


      ---------------------------------
      how do I get to learn, retain and keep the
      > knowledge true?
      > Rob.

      Simple.
      First decide which organization to join.
      Then go seek out that instructor.
      If you are with Mr Suzuki then go to him or bring him
      over and do it
      until he is satisfied.

      If you join Wadoryu then bring over Mr Ohtsuka,
      Shiomitsu or Pardue.

      If you are with Wadokai then it will be Arakawa,
      Takagi or Okumachi.
      Norma Foster can also do it if Shirley prefers a
      female role model.
      Or next time we are together make sure Shirley is
      present and I'll
      sort her out. Simple enough...

      I haven't seen all of the Japanese in Europe doing
      kata so I can't
      comment on them (Iwasaki, Sakagami, etc)

      Bob




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    • Gordon Fong
      ... Bob I would be interested in what those flaws were so I can keep an eye out for me doing them. Regards, Gordon.
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 1, 2005
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        on 31/8/05 18:33, bnashrei (bnashrei@...) wrote:

        > Having said that, I was just making the observation that many of the
        > katas were fundamentally flawed. This was a JKF Wadokai World
        > Championships. I'm sure if this were a Wadoryu tournament people would
        > have the same reaction. There were a lot of technical errors in the
        > performance.

        Bob

        I would be interested in what those flaws were so I can keep an eye out for
        me doing them.

        Regards,

        Gordon.
      • ROBERT CAMPBELL
        Gordon, come up to Blackpool and we ll show you them, it s the only bit we retain!!! Rob. ... that many of the ... Wadokai World ... tournament people would
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 1, 2005
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          Gordon,
          come up to Blackpool and we'll show you them, it's the
          only bit we retain!!!
          Rob.
          --- Gordon Fong <gordon@...> wrote:


          ---------------------------------
          on 31/8/05 18:33, bnashrei (bnashrei@...) wrote:

          > Having said that, I was just making the observation
          that many of the
          > katas were fundamentally flawed. This was a JKF
          Wadokai World
          > Championships. I'm sure if this were a Wadoryu
          tournament people would
          > have the same reaction. There were a lot of
          technical errors in the
          > performance.

          Bob

          I would be interested in what those flaws were so I
          can keep an eye out for
          me doing them.

          Regards,

          Gordon.




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        • bnashrei
          I can do this for each of the katas but I just don t have the time so right now I ll just stick to seishan. (and I am jet lagged for I wrote kick your mom
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 1, 2005
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            I can do this for each of the katas but I just don't have the time so
            right now I'll just stick to seishan. (and I am jet lagged for I
            wrote 'kick your mom' and wrote 'lover' instead of 'lower' several
            times...)
            I will cover the major errors and focus on things I can explain via
            the written word. Some things have to be shown in person – like the
            foot work which is critical but not possible to explain here.
            This is how we teach seishan in JKF Wadokai. If you learned it
            differently then more power to you. But if you want to take a dan
            examination from JKF Wadokai or compete in kata then it has to be
            done this way.

            a) Opening 3 blocks
            1) Many of the competitors keep their elbow at their side and use it
            as a pivot point in their outside block. This is incorrect. The
            elbow must come in towards the center during the initial setup. As
            the block is executed, the elbow moves to the outside. It does not
            remain in any fixed position. It always floats. This is the only
            way to block correctly.
            2) In Wado the hikite arm is chambered so that the fist is parallel
            to the solar plexus. The hikite hand is not held at the belt level.
            It is chambered higher and the forearm is parallel to the ground.
            HOWEVER in Seishan, the chambered hand is just above the belt. Why?
            Because the target of the punch is the lower abdomen. In basics we
            always hold our hikite arm in line with the target.

            b) First hijiuke block
            The wrist must not have any excessive bend when you go to do
            hijiuke. This technique is from the second block in kihon kumite 8.
            As kk8, after the hijiuke you strike the opponent with an ipponken.
            Same principle in this kata. Therefore the wrist bend is kept to a
            minimum.
            c) The punch following the hijiuke, the elbow has to be behind the
            fist upon impact but many people just extend their hands without any
            thought of the relationship of the elbow to the fist.
            d) jodan uke with both hands.
            Power must be applied in the following order:wrist, elbow,
            shoulder - otherwise this block is incorrect.
            e) gedan uke
            Power must be applied in the reverse order of jodan
            uke..shoulder, elbow, wrist otherwise the technique will not work.

            f) Now we turn around and do outside block and downward block.
            1) on the high block it must be block, trap, hook. Most people are
            only trapping and hooking and leaving out the initial block.
            2) in the hook, the pinky, the finger next to the pinky and the
            thumb are used for grabbing – the index and middle finger are passive
            3) when you cross arms to do the upper and lower block you must bring
            both elbows to the center otherwise the block is incorrect. This is
            not a double block but two single blocks done simultaneously so it is
            critical that the elbows both come in for the same reason as the
            opening 3 blocks.

            g) three quick movements – right/left/center.
            1) most everyone is using their legs and arms to do this.
            This is incorrect. You have to block with your body, not with your
            arms. In Wado we use our body to block. The arms are only mere
            extensions of the body so they operate like a whip. Same in the
            opening movement of Pinan 3 and 5. At this point the hikite is back
            to the regular solar plex level position. This way of blocking with
            the body cannot be explained via the written word. It has to be
            shown with the body.

            h) ura uchi and left kick
            1) the ura uchi (sukui uchi) goes up his face hitting his lips,(
            mouth), nose. The left leg chambers to kick. But in this case you
            chose NOT to kick. It is a choice. This means you must have the
            potential to kick and this must be shown. The leg is not raise so it
            can then be used as a fumikomi. NO. It is a maegeri that is chosen
            not to be executed and then it brought down in shikodachi as you do
            fumikomi.
            2) the ura uchi during the fumikomi is not a backfist. It starts
            from his forehead and then you drag the knuckles down his face along
            his nose and lips.
            3) Next you cross your right foot across the left. When you do this
            the hips cannot face forwards. The hips must stay perpendicular to
            the opponent as you cross your legs to kick. When you kick you have
            to pull back your left hand into hikite position because the
            assumption is that the opponent grabbed your arm so you have to yank
            it out of his grasp and nail him with a chudan kick at the same time.
            4) The junzuki no tsukkomi gedan has to be done with the whole body
            and not the shoulders. You have to drive your whole body into your
            opponent and concentrate on opening up your lower hip. Your whole
            body weight must be behind the punch.
            5) On the gyakuzuki/tateseishan. The body does not come up from
            junzuki no tsukkomi gedan because you shift your stance from tsukkomi
            to tateseishan. The body comes up because you cut your hip as your
            reverse punch is being executed. The cutting of the hip caused the
            body to rise and the feet end up wherever they end up….and if you do
            this properly, you should end up in tateseishan.

            Last part…after the mikazuki geri/ gyakuzuki, you are on the
            embusen. The punch is done. Now as you go for the osae uke, you
            MUST take your body off the embusen.
            The osae uke blocks the seichusen but the body must be removed from
            the embusen otherwise you will get nailed by a kick. If you just
            back up along the embusen as you do osae uke, then this is incorrect
            and most people seem to be only backing up the embusen instead of
            removing their body off..

            This is the short version with the key errors that I feel I can
            explain via text.
          • Gordon Fong
            Excellent. Thanks for that Bob. You should write a book! Regards, Gordon.
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 1, 2005
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              Excellent. Thanks for that Bob. You should write a book!

              Regards,

              Gordon.
            • nutriai1
              I agree. Thanks Bob! What about chinto? The parts where you rise your knee to stand in sagiashi(?) and perform gedan barai and soto uke at the same time? Is
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 5, 2005
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                I agree. Thanks Bob!

                What about chinto? The parts where you rise your knee to stand in
                sagiashi(?) and perform gedan barai and soto uke at the same time?
                Is the rising of the knee a chambering for a kick like you described
                earlier for seishan? Or what is its purpose? Evasion?

                I understand that a kick eventually follows the combination, but
                since the kick doesn't follow right after the rising of the knee, it
                makes me curious.

                Niko



                --- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Fong <gordon@f...> wrote:
                > Excellent. Thanks for that Bob. You should write a book!
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Gordon.
              • jaron ben yochanan
                Hi all, I reread every now and then my Wado books and in perticular Ohtsuka sensei s book. The other day in the prelog about the kata i came across what i
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 5, 2005
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                  Hi all,

                  I reread every now and then my Wado books and in
                  perticular Ohtsuka sensei's book.

                  The other day in the prelog "about the kata" i came
                  across what i found striking.
                  on page 72 sensei says "Therefore , if Chinto can be
                  grasped fully, that should be the end.
                  All other kata become the stepping stones to obtaining
                  Chinti."
                  Is this a missprint?
                  And if not, why don't we do kata Chinti?
                  Was Ohtsuka planning to do chinti and didn't come to
                  it, or found it in the end not sufficient enough, like
                  superenpei.
                  This I mean he thought the 9 kata are enough to
                  understand Wado so why make it more difficult with
                  kata chinti (or superenpei for that matter)

                  Anyone?

                  Jaron
                  Wado ryu karate Israel

                  --- nutriai1 <nutriai1@...> wrote:

                  > I agree. Thanks Bob!
                  >
                  > What about chinto? The parts where you rise your
                  > knee to stand in
                  > sagiashi(?) and perform gedan barai and soto uke at
                  > the same time?
                  > Is the rising of the knee a chambering for a kick
                  > like you described
                  > earlier for seishan? Or what is its purpose?
                  > Evasion?
                  >
                  > I understand that a kick eventually follows the
                  > combination, but
                  > since the kick doesn't follow right after the rising
                  > of the knee, it
                  > makes me curious.
                  >
                  > Niko
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Fong
                  > <gordon@f...> wrote:
                  > > Excellent. Thanks for that Bob. You should write a
                  > book!
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > >
                  > > Gordon.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • Gordon Fong
                  ... I don t know but I did a quick Google and found this page http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=212 It mentions Motobu having passed on a set
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 5, 2005
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                    on 5/9/05 14:43, jaron ben yochanan (jaronby@...) wrote:

                    > "Therefore , if Chinto can be
                    > grasped fully, that should be the end.
                    > All other kata become the stepping stones to obtaining
                    > Chinti."
                    > Is this a missprint?
                    > And if not, why don't we do kata Chinti?

                    I don't know but I did a quick Google and found this page

                    http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=212

                    It mentions Motobu having passed on a set of kata, including Chinti, to his
                    son. Don't know much much truth there is to it.

                    Regards,

                    Gordon.
                  • jaron ben yochanan
                    Hi Gordon, I also took a peep at google and it seems chinti to be a real shorinryu kata I am not to sure if Goju and Shotokan also train this kata. Anyway the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 5, 2005
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                      Hi Gordon,
                      I also took a peep at google and it seems chinti to be
                      a real shorinryu kata
                      I am not to sure if Goju and Shotokan also train this
                      kata. Anyway the article has some nice pictures of
                      Choki Motobu. Especially the two in the middle of the
                      article. Thanks Gordon

                      Jaron

                      --- Gordon Fong <gordon@...> wrote:

                      > on 5/9/05 14:43, jaron ben yochanan
                      > (jaronby@...) wrote:
                      >
                      > > "Therefore , if Chinto can be
                      > > grasped fully, that should be the end.
                      > > All other kata become the stepping stones to
                      > obtaining
                      > > Chinti."
                      > > Is this a missprint?
                      > > And if not, why don't we do kata Chinti?
                      >
                      > I don't know but I did a quick Google and found this
                      > page
                      >
                      >
                      http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=212
                      >
                      > It mentions Motobu having passed on a set of kata,
                      > including Chinti, to his
                      > son. Don't know much much truth there is to it.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Gordon.
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • Gordon Fong
                      ... I don t know if chinti is also known as Chinte as practised in Shotokan and Shito Ryu. I have read some web pages that say ti is the Okinawan
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 5, 2005
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                        on 5/9/05 15:29, jaron ben yochanan (jaronby@...) wrote:

                        > Hi Gordon,
                        > I also took a peep at google and it seems chinti to be
                        > a real shorinryu kata
                        > I am not to sure if Goju and Shotokan also train this
                        > kata. Anyway the article has some nice pictures of
                        > Choki Motobu. Especially the two in the middle of the
                        > article. Thanks Gordon

                        I don't know if chinti is also known as "Chinte" as practised in Shotokan
                        and Shito Ryu.

                        I have read some web pages that say "ti" is the Okinawan equivalent of "te"
                        meaning hand.

                        I have seen Chinte kata and I don't think it falls neatly into Wado. I would
                        tend to say that it was a mis-print in the book and that it means Chinto.

                        I think this diagram is familiar to most people:

                        http://wadoryu.cz/img/katy_strom.gif

                        i.e. all the kata lead to Chinto.

                        Regards,

                        Gordon.

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                      • jk291973
                        The Otsuka book unfortunately has quite a few typos throughout with both bad spelling and bad choice of words for techniques. This is down to the translator of
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 7, 2005
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                          The Otsuka book unfortunately has quite a few typos
                          throughout with both bad spelling and bad choice of
                          words for techniques. This is down to the translator
                          of the book obviously and doesn't reflect at all on
                          Master Otsuka. The book could have been translated
                          better. It even translates China as Shina which is
                          a very offensive slur to Chinese people !
                          The word Chinti definitely seems to be a mistake.
                          Otsuka Sensei by the 1970's had narrowed the katas down
                          to 9 only. Chinto was the last one. This is why Ohgami's
                          book also covers only the 9.
                          Hopefully someone will retranslate this book and get it
                          out as a mass market version like Funakoshi's Karate-do
                          Kyohan.


                          --- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, jaron ben yochanan <jaronby@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > Hi all,
                          >
                          > I reread every now and then my Wado books and in
                          > perticular Ohtsuka sensei's book.
                          >
                          > The other day in the prelog "about the kata" i came
                          > across what i found striking.
                          > on page 72 sensei says "Therefore , if Chinto can be
                          > grasped fully, that should be the end.
                          > All other kata become the stepping stones to obtaining
                          > Chinti."
                          > Is this a missprint?
                          > And if not, why don't we do kata Chinti?
                          > Was Ohtsuka planning to do chinti and didn't come to
                          > it, or found it in the end not sufficient enough, like
                          > superenpei.
                          > This I mean he thought the 9 kata are enough to
                          > understand Wado so why make it more difficult with
                          > kata chinti (or superenpei for that matter)
                          >
                          > Anyone?
                          >
                          > Jaron
                          > Wado ryu karate Israel
                          >
                          > --- nutriai1 <nutriai1@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I agree. Thanks Bob!
                          > >
                          > > What about chinto? The parts where you rise your
                          > > knee to stand in
                          > > sagiashi(?) and perform gedan barai and soto uke at
                          > > the same time?
                          > > Is the rising of the knee a chambering for a kick
                          > > like you described
                          > > earlier for seishan? Or what is its purpose?
                          > > Evasion?
                          > >
                          > > I understand that a kick eventually follows the
                          > > combination, but
                          > > since the kick doesn't follow right after the rising
                          > > of the knee, it
                          > > makes me curious.
                          > >
                          > > Niko
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Fong
                          > > <gordon@f...> wrote:
                          > > > Excellent. Thanks for that Bob. You should write a
                          > > book!
                          > > >
                          > > > Regards,
                          > > >
                          > > > Gordon.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
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