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[wadokarate] Re: Basic Katas

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  • Jesper Gunnarson
    Hello! Back in message 354 I wrote about Taikyoku katas, perhaps that will interest you!? Rei Jesper Gunnarson Swedish Karatedo Wadokai dlile-@edge.net (dwight
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 1, 2000
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      Hello!

      Back in message 354 I wrote about Taikyoku katas, perhaps that will
      interest you!?

      Rei

      Jesper Gunnarson
      Swedish Karatedo Wadokai

      dlile-@... (dwight dliles denise liles) wrote:
      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/wadokarate/?start=570
      > Hi, I was wondering if any of you folks perform the Basic katas much
      > anymore. When I first started taking Wado-Ryu karate almost 10 years
      > ago, we ran the Basic katas in class as much as we did the Pinan
      Katas.
      > Now beginners are taught 1st and 2nd Basic (what we call Kihon No-Kata
      > Ichi and Kihon No-Kata Ni) and we go over those two quite often. But
      we
      > don't run 3rd-8th Basic as much. They are still taught and we run
      them
      > in class occasionally. 6th and 7th Basic has a lot of kicks, and 8th
      > Basic is one of my favorites. 8th is as far as I've been taught but
      > it's my understanding there are more than 8, maybe 10 or even 12. I
      > have always thought that 3rd was sort of a continuation of 1st and 2nd
      > Basic even though 2nd and 3rd are not connected like 3rd-8th, but I
      may
      > be wrong on that. I think the reasoning on not running them as much
      was
      > because higher ranking Senseis didn't tend to place as much emphasis
      on
      > them. Any comments on this you'd like to share? Thanks.
      >
      > --Denise Liles
      >
    • Dwight Dliles Denise Liles
      To Jesper Gunnarson: I looked up #354 as you suggested, and yes, I did find it interesting. I had never heard 3rd through 8th called by any name besides
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 1, 2000
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        To Jesper Gunnarson: I looked up #354 as you suggested, and yes, I did
        find it interesting. I had never heard 3rd through 8th called by any
        name besides 3rd-8th Basic. What you're calling Taikyoku Shodan sounds
        like the same as our 1st Basic.

        However, from Ryan's description:

        >Simply called and wisely named
        >"Basic Kata." It has not in order but 3 low block punch combos to the
        >left 3 to the right a low block and 3 jodan ukes to the front and a low

        >block 3 gedan barai's to the back.

        Understanding he meant to say junzuki rather than gedan barai, our 1st
        basic has just one block/punch combo to the left and then to the right.
        The first move is turn left with a left gedanuke, then step forward with
        the right with right junzuki. Then turn 180 degrees to the left and
        make the same 2 moves as the first move, right gedanuke and left
        junzuki. Then turn to the front with left gedanuke. The other moves, 3
        jodan ukes to the front, then moves like the first two to the left and
        right, then gedanuke and 3 junzukis to the back, finishing up with 2
        more moves to the left and right as in the beginning.

        The only difference with our 2nd Basic, is that a maegeri chudan is
        added before the junzukis. We call the kick/punch combo ketta-junzuki.
        Otherwise, 2nd Basic is the same as 1st.

        I think I also had to know these Basic katas for most of my gradings,
        especially early on in my years of karate. I wouldn't be surprised if
        1st and 2nd Basic are still required for white and yellow belt gradings
        at our dojo.

        Jesper, you referred to a Shotokan book for more information on these
        katas. I found that interesting, too. Thanks for referring me back to
        your message. I probably saw it at the time but skipped over it, not
        being familiar with the word Taikyoku and figuring I wouldn't know
        anything about it!

        --Denise Liles
      • Dave Taylor
        ... right. ... with ... moves, 3 ... Denise, I think that Ryan s First Basic Kata is the same as you describe above. He is from the same lineage as I here in
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 1, 2000
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          dlile-@... (dwight dliles denise liles) wrote:

          > Understanding he meant to say junzuki rather than gedan barai, our 1st
          > basic has just one block/punch combo to the left and then to the
          right.
          > The first move is turn left with a left gedanuke, then step forward
          with
          > the right with right junzuki. Then turn 180 degrees to the left and
          > make the same 2 moves as the first move, right gedanuke and left
          > junzuki. Then turn to the front with left gedanuke. The other
          moves, 3
          > jodan ukes to the front, then moves like the first two to the left and
          > right, then gedanuke and 3 junzukis to the back, finishing up with 2
          > more moves to the left and right as in the beginning.

          Denise,
          I think that Ryan's First Basic Kata is the same as you describe
          above. He is from the same lineage as I here in Nashville, (Mr. Cecil
          Patterson, hachidan USEWKF), and I think we all pretty much do first
          basic kata as you describe above.

          I am not familiar with from Paterson Sensei's lineage doing more that
          1 basic kata. If there are those out there who do, I'm sure they will
          speak out.

          A very popular book that is still in print and available at most
          large booksellers, Gichin Funakoshi's "Karate-do Kyohan", contains
          most of the Shotokan katas, as well as several of the Taikyoku katas.
          In comparing his Taikyoku Shodan to our First Basic Kata, the only
          difference is moves 6, 7, & 8, in which they perform genzuki's and
          we perform jodan ukes.

          I was intrigued by this for years myself about where the First Basic
          Kata came from. It bothered me firstly because it was so similar
          in design to the Pinans, but was never mentioned outside of Wado; and
          also because it didn't have a Japanese name, which to me was odd; since
          so many Wado schools do it. I tried to convince myself that it was
          simply a modified version of Shotokan's Heian Shodan, but there were
          several differing techniqes. I was glad to read the original thread
          that credited it to the Taikyoku Shodan. I have had Funakoshi book for
          years, and always skipped over those to get to 'the real' katas...and
          it was sitting there all of the time.

          I wonder if anyone knows why Otsuka Sensei chose to replace the 3
          genzukis with 3 jodan ukes?

          Dave Taylor, eGroups Wado Karate Forum Moderator
          Conrad Jones Karate Schools
          http://www.falconx.com/conradjoneskarate
          Franklin & Brentwood, TN USA
        • ryanj1@home.com
          ... The lineage of my school gives me headaches. :-). We belonged to Sensei Patterson s organization until about 6 years ago or so. I barely remember us
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 1, 2000
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            > Denise,
            > I think that Ryan's First Basic Kata is the same as you describe
            > above. He is from the same lineage as I here in Nashville, (Mr. Cecil
            > Patterson, hachidan USEWKF), and I think we all pretty much do first
            > basic kata as you describe above.

            The "lineage" of my school gives me headaches. :-). We belonged to
            Sensei Patterson's organization until about 6 years ago or so. I barely
            remember us switching to the WIKF, I was young and only like a gold
            belt. It didn't really effect me that much. And now we're not part of
            the WIKF but practice the same curriculum. Ah, I feel headaches coming
            on. :-)

            Ryan Jackson
            Danner Karate Center
            Nashville, TN
          • Michael Cimino-Hurt
            dlile-@edge.net (dwight dliles denise liles) wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/wadokarate/?start=575 ... did ... sounds ... Denise, I came
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 1, 2000
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              dlile-@... (dwight dliles denise liles) wrote:
              original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/wadokarate/?start=575
              > To Jesper Gunnarson: I looked up #354 as you suggested, and yes, I
              did
              > find it interesting. I had never heard 3rd through 8th called by any
              > name besides 3rd-8th Basic. What you're calling Taikyoku Shodan
              sounds
              > like the same as our 1st Basic.


              Denise,

              I came up through the USEWKF, and as I understand (and have mentioned
              in an earlier post), first basic is Taikyoku from Funakoshi. The other
              basics we used were created by the USEWKF and are unique to that
              federation. They involved more angular movement and a lot of kicking
              techniques. Also they were contiguous, so that they could be run
              continuously from first basic through fifth - what we could call
              "henka". Some in hindsight also appear to have some Goju-like
              techniques, i.e., the double gedan barai/soto uke/eye jab techniques
              done from shikodachi. Mr. Hayden would be a good source for info on hte
              origins of these kata.

              Regards,

              Mike Cimino-Hurt
            • Jesper Gunnarson
              ... to ... Hello Densie! I am glad you enjoyed my posting! I am not referring to any particular Shotokan book. I am convinced that Taikyoku katas are presented
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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                >dlile-@... (dwight dliles denise liles) wrote:
                > Jesper, you referred to a Shotokan book for more information on these
                > katas. I found that interesting, too. Thanks for referring me back
                to
                > your message. I probably saw it at the time but skipped over it, not
                > being familiar with the word Taikyoku and figuring I wouldn't know
                > anything about it!

                Hello Densie!

                I am glad you enjoyed my posting!

                I am not referring to any particular Shotokan book. I am convinced that
                Taikyoku katas are presented in most Shotokan books for beginners.

                For fun, I did a quick search in some common search engines for the
                word "Taikyoku"
                Here are the results:
                Altavista: 470 hits
                HotBot: <100 hits
                Yahoo: 88 hits
                FAST Search: 781 hits (http://www.alltheweb.com/)

                It seemd that information about differnt Taikyoku katas is well spread
                around the Internet.
                For any interested it is not difficult to find information about these
                katas.

                Bye from Sweden

                Jesper Gunnarson
                Swedish Karatedo Wadokai
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