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RE: [vt100] Vermont

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  • thewashman@aol.com
    Deb, All right!!! Sounds like a challenge. My goal this year is to push as far as I can. I intend to make my tenth finish under 24 hours or to crawl to the
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 31, 1969
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      Deb,

      All right!!! Sounds like a challenge. My goal this year is to push as far as I can. I intend to make my tenth finish under 24 hours or to crawl to the finish from pushing too hard. You've already had plenty of heat training so we don't care how hot it gets at VT.

      Later,
      Jeff Washburn
    • thewashman@aol.com
      Steve, As you could probably tell, I was trying to tease Ed into going out slowly because the first part is mostly downhill and he will have to consciously
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 31, 1969
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        Steve,

        As you could probably tell, I was trying to tease Ed into going out slowly because the first part is mostly downhill and he will have to consciously think about slowing down. I will, however, still run the first 12 miles fairly hard but not to get miles in the bank but, rather, because it is the coolest part of the day and it is downhill. Two of the only reasons that I can finish these things. OD is more difficult than Vermont becasue there is so much flat terrain that you tend to run a whole lot more and pay the price later with tired legs. You tend to forget to take walking breaks. Vermont dictates when to walk by giving you a long uphill. As much as I love to run downhill, I sometimes can't wait for an uphill so that I can walk again, which is what I do after the 12 mile aid station. The race begins from there.

        Talk later,
        Jeff Washburn
      • thewashman@aol.com
        Ed, I never use weights; however, there is undoubtly some weight exercise that would help you strengthen your quads. I ride a mountain bike for this and run
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 31, 1969
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          Ed,

          I never use weights; however, there is undoubtly some weight exercise that would help you strengthen your quads. I ride a mountain bike for this and run downhill hard whenever I get the opportunity. No matter what, there are so many downhills on the VT100 course that everyone will have sore quads. The course is fast if you can handle the downhills. There are people who have better times here than Western States and others who have worse times. It all depends upon how well you can run downhill. One thing that can make this course fast is that a lot of night running is done on dirt roads rather than single-track trail. You won't have to concetrate too much on your flashlight beam. Running on the dirt roads also allows you to relax which can only help you run better, longer.

          Talk later,
          Jeff Washburn
        • thewashman@aol.com
          Ed, I dare you to try and start slowly at VT. Most of the first 12.5 miles are downhill and it comes while it is cooler than it will be all day. I look
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 31, 1969
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            Ed,

            I dare you to try and start slowly at VT. Most of the first 12.5 miles are downhill and it comes while it is cooler than it will be all day. I look forward to this section every year so that I can get my exuberance out of the way and still put a few miles in the bank. I think a fast pace is only the problem when it is hot or when is causes you to tense up instead of running relaxed. Pushing the pace too long: however, is definitely counterproductive. See you in VT.

            Going for finish ten in twelve tries,
            Jeff Washburn
          • Pero, Stephen M
            Hi Ed... You really should contact Karl King (kking@execpc.com) about this...I use Karl s advice for lots of stuff and also keep Him advised on my continual
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 14, 2000
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              Hi Ed...

              You really should contact Karl King (kking@...) about this...I use
              Karl's advice for lots of stuff and also keep Him advised on my continual
              nausea problems. He does not always suggest his products, btw...He will just
              tell You things like, if You want to take a gel, then make sure You have
              been drinking, otherwise You'll throw it up due to too much concentrated
              carbs on an empty stomach. He suggests drinking lots just before you eat a
              gel.

              I also believe that You cannot overhydrate...but that is just my opinion due
              to my own experience. Yes, I could blame my stomach problems (which I
              'always' have) on overhydration...but it seems that no matter how much I
              drink, I still become dehydrated eventually. It's the nature of running
              ultras, especially running ultras at a quick pace.

              What I'm learning is to keep the fuel intake at a minimum that I can get
              away with without bonking.
              At Massannutten, I tried to use Clip in my sportsvest and up on that first
              ridge, it kept clogging up and I had to continually stop and clear it out
              and in the meantime, I'm not drinking and getting further and further behind
              in hydration. I eventually overheated, got severely dehydrated, which makes
              eating impossible and got into lots of trouble going over Waterfall Mt and
              dropped at the Visitor's Center...

              ...at OD 3 weeks later, I tried to not drink such a concentrated carb
              formula. I started with Clip and just was gagging on the taste of it, so
              switched to the Succeed Ultra that they had at the tables, but I had them
              mix it 50/50 with water so as to be taking little amounts of carbs in
              without the concentration that is the usual. I also had them put ice in my
              bottles. This seemed to work somewhat, but even with this, I was just ahead
              of getting sick just about all day, but it allowed Me to run, although with
              a somewhat nauseous stomach. I just sipped this mixture all day and ate
              fruit cups at the aid stations.

              To give you an example of how a certain wrong thing can turn Your race
              upside down, at mile 56, I was inadvertently given All Sport full
              concentration instead of my usual 50/50 Succeed. (I couldn't complain
              because it was a sweet little 12 year old girl who filled my bottles and in
              her excitement of allowing me to crew me there, She just put the wrong drink
              in)...anyway about a mile down the road, after successfully getting down
              some much needed fuel in some beans I ate, I took a sip of my drink and as
              soon as I tasted the sweetness, my stomach churned and up came everything.
              Luckily, I had the sense to not panic and I just sat down beside a beautiful
              pond and relaxed for about 10 minutes before I moved on...this did Me a
              world of good and I eventually repassed all but 2 guys that passed me while
              I was sitting.

              Now my theory of why We get nauseous... I really believe it's pace related
              and then it's fuel intake related. You must go out at a pace that feels
              slower than Your training pace. This allows Your body to get into the race
              and use Your glycogen stores properly.

              I will end this with a statement that was passed on to me in the early days
              of the Ultra list when I was contemplating running 100 mile trail runs for
              the first time. I do not remember Who it was that said this to me, but it
              was one of the very experience veterans on the list...

              ...One way to think of pace is to think that for every second that You go
              out too fast, You lose a minute at the end...

              Just think about that for awhile and next time water down Your drinks a bit
              and if You get into any trouble, sit down and think about what a wonderful
              world this is and how lucky You are to be involved in this sport that has
              some of the nicest people on the face of the earth in it.

              seeya at Vermont,
              Steve Pero
              peros@...
              ultrastevep@... (June 30th-July 17th, while in Colorado)
            • ed516p@aol.com
              Steve Thanks so much not only for the advice but also for the sentiment. For me running ultras really is both: a great physical activity and then a wonderful
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 14, 2000
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                Steve
                Thanks so much not only for the advice but also for the sentiment. For me
                running ultras really is both: a great physical activity and then a wonderful
                place to be.

                I may have bumbed into you at either Laurel or MMT anyway I will make a point
                of saying hi at Vermont.

                Now to technical issues: I agree with everything you posted. I am still
                learning. I cannot remember the difference between Karl King's Amino drink
                and his Clip drink. Last week I tried alternating between the two and doubled
                my intake of succeed capsules. At the same time I probably doubled my fluid
                intake and felt nauseous more so than mmt at which I was successful. To me
                MMT was more difficult than Laurel, just as hot and of course more miles. So
                I am struggling with what the difference might be. I drank more fluids and
                felt bloated. I know you can feel bloated also because the fluids are not
                getting to the right places or are not allowed to do their job. But I started
                researching and came acros a cite on Kevin Sayers' page about heat
                acclimation that gets into overhydration and it seemed to fit. But I am far
                from sure because there are a variety of factors. It was hot. I may or may
                not have recovered enough from MMT and I did start out a little strong
                perhaps at my training pace. Yet I am almost always good for at least 20-30
                miles at 10-11 minute pace. This time it only lasted about 6 or 7 miles.
                Another factor to which I think you alluded is rest. I trained never to stop,
                never never sit. Yet at mmt arond mile 80 or so I was feeling nauseous and
                sat for the first time ever for ten to twenty minutes and did feel better, In
                fact I ran maybe 90% of the last 20 miles passing many runners. It could have
                been the rest, the fact that my body cooled down, I was psyched- I knew I was
                finishing and nothing was going to stop me.

                At the same time, I just don't feel good about all the chemistry issues. I
                was taking cafeine (coffee and mountain dew), acids (coke) antacids
                (Rolaides), sugar (mountain dew) Succeed pills, Advil, Vitomin b-12 (a
                suggested running aid), Amino sports drink, GU, I don't have a strong handle
                on all of this chenistry and decided to throw it all away and do the last 20
                on bland food, really crackers and white bread and pure water. So I remain
                puzzled. I will write Karl King and hopefully he will be able to offer some
                generous advice. You confirm for me that I can take a little rest, maybe my
                body cools down and this helps.
                Another question I have is: Can I get away with a totlally liquid fuel source
                such as clip or Amino? I think one has some 'good' fat in it and the other
                has more electrolytes but I am not sure. Will this be enough? I hate solid
                foods while runing for the most part although I can eat a turkey sandwhich at
                times. I don't do any sweets and I am beginning to get a grudge aainst Gu
                even though I can swallow it down. Another ultra runner suggested glucose
                tablets. I am a little woried about getting into them as well. As I said all
                this chemistry is starting to go way over my head and I imagine it must get
                complicated when you get up to 5 to 10 different chemicals. What do you think
                about glucose pills? This fellow says you get them over the counter and pop
                them ito your mouth all the time when running. Doesn't sound too well thought
                out to me.

                You also confirm my pacing problem. It is such an age old problem for me,
                akin to impulsiveness. I know better and I am trying not to run a race just a
                run but when I feel good and its early in the morning and beautiful trail and
                an adventure is dead ahead,,well......., Its hard to hold back even though I
                am paying for it. Maybe my experience at Laurel will teach me this lesson
                sufficiently.

                Anyway, sorry for going on so much. You do help confirm some of my mistakes
                which I appreciate. I also think that solving all of these problems, fine
                tuning the machine so to speak, is part of the game. I will know better by
                the time I get to Vermont and can attempt another good run with a few
                changes. Either way, I am ahead.

                looking forward to seeing you and Vermont.

                thanks again


                ed
              • Pero, Stephen M
                Hi again, Ed... First of all, don t apologize for rambling...that is how We all learn. I learn from You and You learn from Me...I feel like Ultrarunning is a
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 14, 2000
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                  Hi again, Ed...

                  First of all, don't apologize for rambling...that is how We all learn. I
                  learn from You and You learn from Me...I feel like Ultrarunning is a
                  learning experience that we learn more what We cannot do than what We can
                  do. We end up throwing away things that don't work and We usually end up
                  settling on the things that don't bother us.

                  At Old Dominion, I was lucky to be able to share a hotel room with Jim
                  Garcia for 2 days and it was He who told me to stay away from simple sugars,
                  they'll just make You sick eventually. Simple sugars would be the Cokes and
                  mountain dews, etc. I know, I know...many swear by these, but We weak
                  stomached ones cannot. Believe Me, I absolutely love Coke...am drinking one
                  right now as a matter of fact, but I just cannot stomach it or any other
                  soft drink, during an ultra, particularly a hot ultra.

                  I have run 4 100's (finished 2), 6 50's, about 6 50k's and about 30
                  marathons over the years and I am just now finding out that real food is
                  where it's at. I do the watered down Succeed Ultra to maintain a constant
                  carbo and calorie intake and eat stuff at the aid stations. Jim turned Me on
                  to Fruit Cups, which I can handle and has about 80 calories per cup. Jim
                  Geesler turned Me on to V8 juice, about 200 calories and lots of sodium and
                  potassium. These things and real fruit are what I can do...and then as soon
                  as it's available, chicken soup, which has salt, fat and calories...wash
                  this down with a cup of coffee and it's like taking a shot of adrenaline.

                  What I'm saying here is that You've just got to find what works for
                  You...it's different for everyone.

                  Now about doing no solids and just drinking. I really don't think that's a
                  possibility for us slugs...the faster guys (like Mike Morton) does this, but
                  I do know for a fact that Jim eats a lot (beans, burritos, fruit cups, gels
                  and anything that will keep up his energy to stay in front) and Sue
                  Johnston, another good friend, does Clip throughout the run, but also drinks
                  soup, eats baby food (sweet potatoes). Deb Reno does all sorts of food like
                  the baby food, Quesadillas, fruit cups and Ensure. So just experiment and
                  find what it is that works for You...there is something out there that is
                  'your' magic formula.

                  I don't know of anyone that does the glucose tabs. I don't think they have
                  many calories, so really couldn't be much help, but they surely couldn't
                  hurt. The idea here is to keep up the calories to keep on going without
                  upsetting the stomach.

                  If someone else on the list has any magic formulas, maybe they'd like to
                  share them.

                  Anyway...seeya at Vermont for sure,
                  Steve Pero
                • Martha
                  Hi, Ed, I was also at LH this past weekend. Although I called it a day at 57, my stomach felt great and I didn t feel overheated the entire day. I ll tell you
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 14, 2000
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                    Hi, Ed,
                    I was also at LH this past weekend. Although I called it a day at 57,
                    my stomach felt great and I didn't feel overheated the entire day.
                    I'll tell you what worked for me and you can abstract from it what you
                    think will work for you. In addition, this is also the eating/drinking
                    strategy used by the LH 5th place finisher, Ken Hubbard, and another
                    finisher, Bill Harrold (who seems to have beaten his old puking
                    problem).

                    1. We used CLIP, but we alternated it with plain water. We always
                    drank plain water if we were eating something.

                    2. We took a Succeed cap every 45-60 minutes.

                    3. Ken used B vitamins.

                    4. I used an occasional Clif Shot when I hit a low point. Clif Shot
                    is much easier on my stomach than Gu; it's more natural.

                    5. We tried to eat something (i.e. real food) every hour, and stayed
                    away from the sugary stuff.

                    6. Bill drank about 4 cans of Ensure during the day; I supplemented
                    with Boost. (Bill is a vegetarian, so this is one of the few ways he
                    can get protein during a long run.)

                    7. In my mile 46 drop bag, I had a pop-top can of Dinty Moore Chicken
                    & Dumplings. I can honestly say it was the best thing I've ever had in
                    my life at that point; I was craving real food terribly.

                    8. We stayed away from caffeine until late in the race (I never had
                    any). Bill filled a water bottle with Pepsi at mile 57, and then
                    sipped on it for just the last couple of hours so he didn't get a sugar
                    crash.

                    9. The food they had at the aid stations was not optimal. The only
                    protein was pb&j, and that got old pretty quickly. I've heard VT has a
                    better food selection.

                    10. We went easy on the Advil. I read recently that if you are taking
                    a lot of it, it can interfere with your body's fluid processing.

                    Hope this is helpful and best of luck to you at Vermont!

                    Martha
                    mpholden@...




                    --- ed516p@... wrote:
                    > Steve

                    > At the same time, I just don't feel good about all the chemistry
                    > issues. I
                    > was taking cafeine (coffee and mountain dew), acids (coke) antacids
                    > (Rolaides), sugar (mountain dew) Succeed pills, Advil, Vitomin b-12
                    > (a
                    > suggested running aid), Amino sports drink, GU, I don't have a strong
                    > handle
                    > on all of this chenistry and decided to throw it all away and do the
                    > last 20
                    > on bland food, really crackers and white bread and pure water. So I
                    > remain
                    > puzzled. I will write Karl King and hopefully he will be able to
                    > offer some
                    > generous advice. You confirm for me that I can take a little rest,
                    > maybe my
                    > body cools down and this helps.
                    > Another question I have is: Can I get away with a totlally liquid
                    > fuel source
                    > such as clip or Amino? I think one has some 'good' fat in it and the
                    > other
                    > has more electrolytes but I am not sure. Will this be enough? I hate
                    > solid
                    > foods while runing for the most part although I can eat a turkey
                    > sandwhich at
                    > times. I don't do any sweets and I am beginning to get a grudge
                    > aainst Gu
                    > even though I can swallow it down. Another ultra runner suggested
                    > glucose
                    > tablets. I am a little woried about getting into them as well. As I
                    > said all
                    > this chemistry is starting to go way over my head and I imagine it
                    > must get
                    > complicated when you get up to 5 to 10 different chemicals. What do
                    > you think
                    > about glucose pills? This fellow says you get them over the counter
                    > and pop
                    > them ito your mouth all the time when running. Doesn't sound too well
                    > thought
                    > out to me.
                    >
                    > You also confirm my pacing problem. It is such an age old problem for
                    > me,
                    > akin to impulsiveness. I know better and I am trying not to run a
                    > race just a
                    > run but when I feel good and its early in the morning and beautiful
                    > trail and
                    > an adventure is dead ahead,,well......., Its hard to hold back even
                    > though I
                    > am paying for it. Maybe my experience at Laurel will teach me this
                    > lesson
                    > sufficiently.
                    >
                    > Anyway, sorry for going on so much. You do help confirm some of my
                    > mistakes
                    > which I appreciate. I also think that solving all of these problems,
                    > fine
                    > tuning the machine so to speak, is part of the game. I will know
                    > better by
                    > the time I get to Vermont and can attempt another good run with a few
                    >
                    > changes. Either way, I am ahead.
                    >
                    > looking forward to seeing you and Vermont.
                    >
                    > thanks again
                    >
                    >
                    > ed
                    >
                    >
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                  • ed516p@aol.com
                    Thanks so much Martha, steve and Jeff: I think I saw you Jeff, at Laurel. Martha: Do you eat cold chicken and dumplings??? I dont think I could do that under
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 14, 2000
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                      Thanks so much Martha, steve and Jeff: I think I saw you Jeff, at Laurel.
                      Martha: Do you eat cold chicken and dumplings??? I dont think I could do that
                      under optimal conditions. I know a few people that use ensure but I cannot
                      handle it. What is Boost? Is it a formula or milk like product??I really am
                      interested. I wish there was a food that had no taste, the perfect
                      combination of all that is good for you and was easy to digest. But all the
                      advice taken together is very helpful. It does confirm several things: there
                      is great variablility among all of us (all an experiment of one....) but also
                      some universals: water, electrolytes, some type of food/fuel, more are using
                      clip than most other mixes ( such as the amino drink I got) and now I have
                      heard quite a few advise against the advill and cafeine. Martha: I will also
                      ty clif shots I never have. Jeff I don't know yet if I should go too hard on
                      the first downhills but will see maybe easy and confortable.,I have done
                      several years worth of marathon level running and now 50s + , yet I
                      constantly start off too strong and regret it later. I probably dont have the
                      discipline you do. Also ; what type of leg workouts do you recomend for
                      downhill (quads on a press, a leg curl on your back or stomach?) besides hill
                      running? Do you think workout with weights should also be tapered before a
                      100? Thanks to everyone, Vermont sounds like a fun run. BTW: I have heard
                      that it is a relatively faster 100 than most and that instead of trails it is
                      mostly dirt roads, pretty roads but very different from a trail run. The
                      elevations seem close to many of the runs around the Virginia/Maryland area,
                      are the hills about the same as MMT or Laurel? How does it compare to these
                      two?

                      As always thanks much

                      ed
                    • reno_debra@emc.com
                      Ed, The hills at Vermont are longer than Laurel, probably not as steep at MMT, but there are some good climbs. Still it is a very runnable course. There are
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 14, 2000
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                        Ed,
                        The hills at Vermont are longer than Laurel, probably not as steep at MMT,
                        but there are some good climbs. Still it is a very runnable course. There
                        are some trail sections and they would compare to LH as far as footing is
                        concerned.
                        Bring a cheap disposable flashlight for the start - you can drop it at the
                        first aid station, but since the start is at 4:00am, you will need light for
                        just awhile, as that section is all trail at the beginning.
                        You will not need to wear a big pack, and probably a single bottle is all,
                        except possibly in the hot part of the day, as the aid stations are all very
                        close and the food supplies are more varied than at either MMT or LH. they
                        will always have fruit and a supply of ice - and coffee and soup at night.

                        Trail shoes are not really necessary - I will be wearing road shoes for that
                        one.
                        If you are especially sun-sensitive, this run is more open than at LH, so
                        take appropriate precautions.
                        Too bad this year they are not having the equestrian event along with the
                        run - it always added a special feeling to be running alongside the horses,
                        and hearing that first horse come galloping up the road early in the morning
                        was a real treat. I will miss them. I just hope they still have the hoses
                        to spray us with along the way ! (they were originally meant for the
                        horses!)

                        see you there!
                        deb r.

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: ed516p@... [SMTP:ed516p@...]
                        > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 10:49 PM
                        > To: vt100@egroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [vt100] Vermont
                        >
                        > Thanks so much Martha, steve and Jeff: I think I saw you Jeff, at Laurel.
                        > Martha: Do you eat cold chicken and dumplings??? I dont think I could do
                        > that
                        > under optimal conditions. I know a few people that use ensure but I cannot
                        >
                        > handle it. What is Boost? Is it a formula or milk like product??I really
                        > am
                        > interested. I wish there was a food that had no taste, the perfect
                        > combination of all that is good for you and was easy to digest. But all
                        > the
                        > advice taken together is very helpful. It does confirm several things:
                        > there
                        > is great variablility among all of us (all an experiment of one....) but
                        > also
                        > some universals: water, electrolytes, some type of food/fuel, more are
                        > using
                        > clip than most other mixes ( such as the amino drink I got) and now I have
                        >
                        > heard quite a few advise against the advill and cafeine. Martha: I will
                        > also
                        > ty clif shots I never have. Jeff I don't know yet if I should go too hard
                        > on
                        > the first downhills but will see maybe easy and confortable.,I have done
                        > several years worth of marathon level running and now 50s + , yet I
                        > constantly start off too strong and regret it later. I probably dont have
                        > the
                        > discipline you do. Also ; what type of leg workouts do you recomend for
                        > downhill (quads on a press, a leg curl on your back or stomach?) besides
                        > hill
                        > running? Do you think workout with weights should also be tapered before
                        > a
                        > 100? Thanks to everyone, Vermont sounds like a fun run. BTW: I have heard
                        > that it is a relatively faster 100 than most and that instead of trails it
                        > is
                        > mostly dirt roads, pretty roads but very different from a trail run. The
                        > elevations seem close to many of the runs around the Virginia/Maryland
                        > area,
                        > are the hills about the same as MMT or Laurel? How does it compare to
                        > these
                        > two?
                        >
                        > As always thanks much
                        >
                        > ed
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to: vt100@...
                        >
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: vt100-unsubscribe@...
                      • ed516p@aol.com
                        thanks Deb; I guess you worked out your sons wedding so you could do both? great! see you there ed
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 14, 2000
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                          thanks Deb; I guess you worked out your sons wedding so you could do both?
                          great! see you there
                          ed
                        • ed516p@aol.com
                          thanks Jeff See you there
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 15, 2000
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                            thanks Jeff
                            See you there
                          • Pero, Stephen M
                            Hi Ed... Don t listen to Jeff...;-) Go out easy at Vermont...if I try to put money in the bank at an ultra, then I die a vicious death later on, so I m going
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 15, 2000
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                              Hi Ed...

                              Don't listen to Jeff...;-) Go out easy at Vermont...if I try to put money in
                              the bank at an ultra, then I die a vicious death later on, so I'm going out
                              easy.

                              In 98 at the first aid station, I think I wasn't even in the first 100, then
                              at the half I was in 42nd and I finished in 23rd..and I ran the 9th best
                              paced race. So I think that even paced running is the best way to go and is
                              what I am going to do this year, unlike last year when I was too big for my
                              britches and decided to "go for it"...and crashed and burned on the side of
                              the trail at mile 35...dropping at 42.

                              The start is on a rough ATV road for a couple of miles and one is best to
                              take it easy on that as You can turn an ankle in the confusion of the crowd.
                              Your going by runners and they're going by You...take it easy until the
                              first hill, which I think comes at about 2 3/4 miles, where You can then
                              walk for the first time...then just ease into a nice pace that will feel
                              easy for the rest of the day.

                              Boost is just another form of Ensure.

                              Instead of Advil, I take Tylenol...1 every 2 hours after 50 miles to ease
                              the quad pain...Any Nsaids like Advil, aspirin, etc can mess with Your
                              kidneys...just ask Deb.

                              For quad strength, I do first of all hill repeats. The downhills get the
                              quads and is the best specificity training You can do. A couple of times a
                              week I do single leg squats, maybe 3 sets of 20...then straight leg raises
                              (3x20)...then lunges (3x20) and then after a bit of rest 100 double legged
                              squats, all without weights. Along with this I do a bit of upper body stuff,
                              pushups, situps, bicep curls and tricep dips. I do more weights in the
                              weight room off season and just settle with the easier stuff now until maybe
                              January, where I'll return to the gym.

                              My guess about Vermont comparisons is that it is nothing like MMT, some
                              parts are close to Laurel but it is more closer to Old Dominion, but OD
                              seems to be harder for some reason...it's probably due to Sherman's Gap,
                              Veach Gap and Woodstock Tower all coming in the last 20 miles...

                              seeya soon,
                              Steve

                              PS: Tomorrow night I may be doing a night (9pm to approx 2am), full moon
                              training run up and back down Mount Washington in NH with Sue Johnston ...
                              Fun, Fun, Fun!

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: ed516p@... [mailto:ed516p@...]
                              > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 10:49 PM
                              > To: vt100@egroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [vt100] Vermont
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks so much Martha, steve and Jeff: I think I saw you
                              > Jeff, at Laurel.
                              > Martha: Do you eat cold chicken and dumplings??? I dont think
                              > I could do that
                              > under optimal conditions. I know a few people that use ensure
                              > but I cannot
                              > handle it. What is Boost? Is it a formula or milk like
                              > product??I really am
                              > interested. I wish there was a food that had no taste, the perfect
                              > combination of all that is good for you and was easy to
                              > digest. But all the
                              > advice taken together is very helpful. It does confirm
                              > several things: there
                              > is great variablility among all of us (all an experiment of
                              > one....) but also
                              > some universals: water, electrolytes, some type of food/fuel,
                              > more are using
                              > clip than most other mixes ( such as the amino drink I got)
                              > and now I have
                              > heard quite a few advise against the advill and cafeine.
                              > Martha: I will also
                              > ty clif shots I never have. Jeff I don't know yet if I should
                              > go too hard on
                              > the first downhills but will see maybe easy and
                              > confortable.,I have done
                              > several years worth of marathon level running and now 50s + , yet I
                              > constantly start off too strong and regret it later. I
                              > probably dont have the
                              > discipline you do. Also ; what type of leg workouts do you
                              > recomend for
                              > downhill (quads on a press, a leg curl on your back or
                              > stomach?) besides hill
                              > running? Do you think workout with weights should also be
                              > tapered before a
                              > 100? Thanks to everyone, Vermont sounds like a fun run. BTW:
                              > I have heard
                              > that it is a relatively faster 100 than most and that instead
                              > of trails it is
                              > mostly dirt roads, pretty roads but very different from a
                              > trail run. The
                              > elevations seem close to many of the runs around the
                              > Virginia/Maryland area,
                              > are the hills about the same as MMT or Laurel? How does it
                              > compare to these
                              > two?
                              >
                              > As always thanks much
                              >
                              > ed
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: vt100@...
                              >
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                              >
                            • ed516p@aol.com
                              Thanks so much Steve; I really feel lucky to be able to get all of this valuable good advice from folks I hardly even know, I know that that is part of the fun
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 15, 2000
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                                Thanks so much Steve;
                                I really feel lucky to be able to get all of this valuable good advice from
                                folks I hardly even know, I know that that is part of the fun of running
                                sharing the trail with a great group of people. wish I was out there with you
                                for the night time run.

                                See you in Vermont

                                ed
                              • Pero, Stephen M
                                Hi Jeff... Oh I knew what You were doing and is why I included the wink ;-)... You ll probably be ahead of Me for awhile there as I m going out real easy on
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 16, 2000
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                                  Hi Jeff...

                                  Oh I knew what You were doing and is why I included the wink ;-)...

                                  You'll probably be ahead of Me for awhile there as I'm going out real easy
                                  on that ATV road, walking that first hill and then as the course flattens
                                  out try to stay at an easy pace until CTB#1. If I am still feeling ok, I'll
                                  try to start catching runners from there on in. That's what worked for Me in
                                  '98 and also pretty much at OD, although I was a bit disappointed in my time
                                  at OD...really thought I could come in around 21 hours, but that sick
                                  session in the middle really slowed Me down until dark. Then with Greg
                                  Loomis by my side I was able to run a little better (with the help of the
                                  soup and coffee, of course).

                                  I'm really looking forward to Vt this year...I feel like I am starting to
                                  get a handle on how to run 100's.

                                  If You aren't doing anything tonight, and Paula will let You, come up and
                                  join Sue and I on Mt Washington. We're going to be starting around 9pm and
                                  finishing around 2 am (my guess). We're running up and back down the auto
                                  road the day before the race.

                                  seeya all soon,
                                  Steve

                                  PS: I look forward to those hills, too. Especially after CTB.

                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: thewashman@... [mailto:thewashman@...]
                                  > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 4:20 AM
                                  > To: vt100@egroups.com
                                  > Subject: RE: [vt100] Vermont
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Steve,
                                  >
                                  > As you could probably tell, I was trying to tease Ed into
                                  > going out slowly because the first part is mostly downhill
                                  > and he will have to consciously think about slowing down. I
                                  > will, however, still run the first 12 miles fairly hard but
                                  > not to get miles in the bank but, rather, because it is the
                                  > coolest part of the day and it is downhill. Two of the only
                                  > reasons that I can finish these things. OD is more difficult
                                  > than Vermont becasue there is so much flat terrain that you
                                  > tend to run a whole lot more and pay the price later with
                                  > tired legs. You tend to forget to take walking breaks.
                                  > Vermont dictates when to walk by giving you a long uphill.
                                  > As much as I love to run downhill, I sometimes can't wait for
                                  > an uphill so that I can walk again, which is what I do after
                                  > the 12 mile aid station. The race begins from there.
                                  >
                                  > Talk later,
                                  > Jeff Washburn
                                • reno_debra@emc.com
                                  Jeff, I m paying close attention to all these strategies of yours, since YOU ARE THE MAN! and I figure you ve finished more of these things already than I
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 16, 2000
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                                    Jeff,

                                    I'm paying close attention to all these strategies of yours, since YOU ARE
                                    THE MAN! and I figure you've finished more of these things already than I
                                    probably ever will..
                                    (race ya to the 12 mile aid station!)
                                    deb
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: thewashman@... [SMTP:thewashman@...]
                                    > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 4:20 AM
                                    > To: vt100@egroups.com
                                    > Subject: RE: [vt100] Vermont
                                    >
                                    > Steve,
                                    >
                                    > As you could probably tell, I was trying to tease Ed into going out slowly
                                    > because the first part is mostly downhill and he will have to consciously
                                    > think about slowing down. I will, however, still run the first 12 miles
                                    > fairly hard but not to get miles in the bank but, rather, because it is
                                    > the coolest part of the day and it is downhill. Two of the only reasons
                                    > that I can finish these things. OD is more difficult than Vermont becasue
                                    > there is so much flat terrain that you tend to run a whole lot more and
                                    > pay the price later with tired legs. You tend to forget to take walking
                                    > breaks. Vermont dictates when to walk by giving you a long uphill. As
                                    > much as I love to run downhill, I sometimes can't wait for an uphill so
                                    > that I can walk again, which is what I do after the 12 mile aid station.
                                    > The race begins from there.
                                    >
                                    > Talk later,
                                    > Jeff Washburn
                                    >
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                                  • reno_debra@emc.com
                                    aha! you took my bait! My REAL plan is to force you out too fast, then watch you die a slow death on the CTB loop! :-) heh, heh... deb
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 16, 2000
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                                      aha! you took my bait! My REAL plan is to force you out too fast, then
                                      watch you die a slow death on the CTB loop! :-)
                                      heh, heh...
                                      deb

                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: thewashman@... [SMTP:thewashman@...]
                                      > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 12:19 PM
                                      > To: vt100@egroups.com
                                      > Subject: RE: [vt100] Vermont
                                      >
                                      > Deb,
                                      >
                                      > All right!!! Sounds like a challenge. My goal this year is to push as
                                      > far as I can. I intend to make my tenth finish under 24 hours or to crawl
                                      > to the finish from pushing too hard. You've already had plenty of heat
                                      > training so we don't care how hot it gets at VT.
                                      >
                                      > Later,
                                      > Jeff Washburn
                                      >
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