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Re: [virtualconvivium] Re: OFFTOPIC: people on the DhO being actually free

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  • Claudiu Saftoiu
    ... Well, for example, people prefer to read the DhO for actualism advice, instead of reading the AFT... why do people prefer to read Tarin s words vs.
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 30, 2012
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      ADAM: Claudiu, I'd like to point out that tarin frequently mentions how much he enjoys life and he met with both criticism and appreciation as did SKD, I would say tarin was actually embroiled in more controversy than SKD and as a point of fact Trent was banned from a Kenneth folk dharma for his talking about actualism.

      Well, for example, people prefer to read the DhO for actualism advice, instead of reading the AFT... why do people prefer to read Tarin's words vs. Richard's? 

      ADAM: Also tarin and Nikolai have explicitly withdrawn their claims.

      Tarin withdrew his claim, which was a skillful idea, but he did not do it very sincerely. Everyone I spoke to simply got the impression that Tarin considered it just a matter of labeling, and that actual freedom is whatever Richard says it is - as if Richard is changing the definition to exclude Tarin on purpose. That was the impression I got from his post, and that is the impression others got, too. 

      About Nikolai, he still insinuates all over the place he is actually free. On this very forum, in fact:

      NIKOLAI: When you all become 'af', you can then speak with authority and add more
      validation to such a set of instructions and even know for sure if it is worth
      it or not. (I would say it is) 
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualconvivium/message/102 

      That was 14 days ago. I haven't read anything by him lately, so if he has since withdrawn his claim again, let me know.

      FELIPE: - To me, Tarin's and Trent's buddhistic advice was mostly in the cases of 1. if you tried hard and couldn't do this AF thing straight, go hit a jhana or stream entry or whatever and then come back to see it's easier to practice actualism,

      Yea, that was Tarin's take. He says Buddhistic practice helped him understand how 'i' am 'my' feelings and 'my' feelings are 'me', so he recommends it for people to be able to figure that out. But, as I understand it, buddhistic practice is indeed 180 degrees opposite from actualism. So, if you can't get actualism straight, why would going 180 degrees in the opposite direction for a while help you understand actualism? It didn't, for me. I read all of Tarin's & Trent's posts on the DhO for a while and spoke to them in person, and took their advice, yet I didn't really understand actualism until I went to visit Richard for a few days. And apparently, it didn't for Tarin, either, assuming that he is not actually free. 
       
      or 2. simply to be generous and give advice in a topic they are knowledgeable {both being arahats before}.

      As far as I can tell, buddhistic practice leads to rather delusional things, so why would someone help people manifest their delusions? I am personally never going to recommend anyone meditate ever again... not after seeing it for what it is.
       
      FELIPE: - As for behavioral aspects, what you wrote about Richard and Vineeto being more vivacious and Tarin and Trent not being that way, this could be due to their idiosyncrasies. I don't think achieving AF changes, say, your introversion or extroversion. Or your tendency to enjoy food or sex more than others. Justine, for example, said he preferred to be celibate, while Richard advocates for the sexual pleasure.

      Indeed it could be. What I wrote was my general impression of them. I also tried intuitively feeling out Richard & Vineeto and immediately understood there were no vibes around them whatsoever, that it was literally impossible for them to harm 'me', on an affective or psychic level. I had tried feeling out Tarin & Trent earlier, with an equal bias/lack of bias (I thought they were actually free at the time), and I did not get that impression from them. It wasn't a clean read of no vibes at all. With Tarin I immediately felt some sort of dullness across my chest, and with Trent, I got something that I couldn't figure out what it was. I didn't know what to make of it at the time so I dropped them both, but it was very different from when I did it with Richard & Vineeto. Again, this is all subjective.
       
      FELIPE: Perhaps we should leave it at that because these discussions never end and don't contribute much to what's important. 

      Probably not a bad plan. I'm fine with not continuing to talk about it. 

      FELIPE: I'm curious about one thing tho... whatever happened to Peter? does he live with them? Never understood why he's not considered completely AF and he suddenly disappeared from the scene.

      Richard said Justine is a good example of why Peter is keeping quiet, in this intermediary period... namely the somewhat odd e-books that Justine has come out with. As to why he's not considered meaning-of-life free, I think that's because he isn't, yet. Only Vineeto & Richard are, currently. As to why that is, Richard & Vineeto didn't know, either. 

      Cheers,
      - Claudiu
    • Adam
      Oops I tried to delete my post right after sending it because I didn t really want to get into the discussion. He said on the dho that we shouldn t consider
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 30, 2012
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        Oops I tried to delete my post right after sending it because I didn't really want to get into the discussion.

        He said on the dho that we shouldn't consider him AF and he took down his entire blog about actual freedom. He probably thinks its just a matter of labeling.

        But yeah I dont want to discuss it really

        Thanks

        --- In virtualconvivium@yahoogroups.com, Claudiu Saftoiu <csaftoiu@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > ADAM: Claudiu, I'd like to point out that tarin frequently mentions how
        > > much he enjoys life and he met with both criticism and appreciation as did
        > > SKD, I would say tarin was actually embroiled in more controversy than SKD
        > > and as a point of fact Trent was banned from a Kenneth folk dharma for his
        > > talking about actualism.
        >
        >
        > Well, for example, people prefer to read the DhO for actualism advice,
        > instead of reading the AFT... why do people prefer to read Tarin's words
        > vs. Richard's?
        >
        > ADAM: Also tarin and Nikolai have explicitly withdrawn their claims.
        >
        >
        > Tarin withdrew his claim, which was a skillful idea, but he did not do it
        > very sincerely. Everyone I spoke to simply got the impression that Tarin
        > considered it just a matter of labeling, and that actual freedom is
        > whatever Richard says it is - as if Richard is changing the definition to
        > exclude Tarin on purpose. That was the impression I got from his post, and
        > that is the impression others got, too.
        >
        > About Nikolai, he still insinuates all over the place he is actually free.
        > On this very forum, in fact:
        >
        > NIKOLAI: When you all become 'af', you can then speak with authority and
        > > add more
        > > validation to such a set of instructions and even know for sure if it is
        > > worth
        > > it or not. (I would say it is)
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualconvivium/message/102
        >
        >
        > That was 14 days ago. I haven't read anything by him lately, so if he has
        > since withdrawn his claim again, let me know.
        >
        > FELIPE: - To me, Tarin's and Trent's buddhistic advice was mostly in the
        > > cases of 1. if you tried hard and couldn't do this AF thing straight, go
        > > hit a jhana or stream entry or whatever and then come back to see it's
        > > easier to practice actualism,
        > >
        >
        > Yea, that was Tarin's take. He says Buddhistic practice helped him
        > understand how 'i' am 'my' feelings and 'my' feelings are 'me', so he
        > recommends it for people to be able to figure that out. But, as I
        > understand it, buddhistic practice is indeed 180 degrees opposite from
        > actualism. So, if you can't get actualism straight, why would going 180
        > degrees in the opposite direction for a while help you understand
        > actualism? It didn't, for me. I read all of Tarin's & Trent's posts on the
        > DhO for a while and spoke to them in person, and took their advice, yet I
        > didn't really understand actualism until I went to visit Richard for a few
        > days. And apparently, it didn't for Tarin, either, assuming that he is not
        > actually free.
        >
        >
        > > or 2. simply to be generous and give advice in a topic they are
        > > knowledgeable {both being arahats before}.
        > >
        >
        > As far as I can tell, buddhistic practice leads to rather delusional
        > things, so why would someone help people manifest their delusions? I am
        > personally never going to recommend anyone meditate ever again... not after
        > seeing it for what it is.
        >
        >
        > > FELIPE: - As for behavioral aspects, what you wrote about Richard and
        > > Vineeto being more vivacious and Tarin and Trent not being that way, this
        > > could be due to their idiosyncrasies. I don't think achieving AF changes,
        > > say, your introversion or extroversion. Or your tendency to enjoy food or
        > > sex more than others. Justine, for example, said he preferred to be
        > > celibate, while Richard advocates for the sexual pleasure.
        > >
        >
        > Indeed it could be. What I wrote was my general impression of them. I also
        > tried intuitively feeling out Richard & Vineeto and immediately understood
        > there were no vibes around them whatsoever, that it was literally
        > impossible for them to harm 'me', on an affective or psychic level. I had
        > tried feeling out Tarin & Trent earlier, with an equal bias/lack of bias (I
        > thought they were actually free at the time), and I did not get that
        > impression from them. It wasn't a clean read of no vibes at all. With Tarin
        > I immediately felt some sort of dullness across my chest, and with Trent, I
        > got something that I couldn't figure out what it was. I didn't know what to
        > make of it at the time so I dropped them both, but it was very different
        > from when I did it with Richard & Vineeto. Again, this is all subjective.
        >
        >
        > > FELIPE: Perhaps we should leave it at that because these discussions never
        > > end and don't contribute much to what's important.
        > >
        >
        > Probably not a bad plan. I'm fine with not continuing to talk about it.
        >
        > FELIPE: I'm curious about one thing tho... whatever happened to Peter? does
        > > he live with them? Never understood why he's not considered completely AF
        > > and he suddenly disappeared from the scene.
        > >
        >
        > Richard said Justine is a good example of why Peter is keeping quiet, in
        > this intermediary period... namely the somewhat odd e-books that Justine
        > has come out with. As to why he's not considered meaning-of-life free, I
        > think that's because he isn't, yet. Only Vineeto & Richard are, currently.
        > As to why that is, Richard & Vineeto didn't know, either.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > - Claudiu
        >
      • sridr84
        ... yes, i got a similar impression when i met tarin for 4 hours in newyork. as richard said, he seemed aloof. we didn t talk much (which was odd considering
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 30, 2012
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          On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Claudiu Saftoiu wrote:
          >> FELIPE: - As for behavioral aspects, what you wrote about Richard and
          >> Vineeto being more vivacious and Tarin and Trent not being that way, this
          >> could be due to their idiosyncrasies. I don't think achieving AF changes,
          >> say, your introversion or extroversion. Or your tendency to enjoy food or
          >> sex more than others. Justine, for example, said he preferred to be
          >> celibate, while Richard advocates for the sexual pleasure.
          >
          > Indeed it could be. What I wrote was my general impression of them. I also
          > tried intuitively feeling out Richard & Vineeto and immediately understood
          > there were no vibes around them whatsoever, that it was literally impossible
          > for them to harm 'me', on an affective or psychic level. I had tried feeling
          > out Tarin & Trent earlier, with an equal bias/lack of bias (I thought they
          > were actually free at the time), and I did not get that impression from
          > them. It wasn't a clean read of no vibes at all. With Tarin I immediately
          > felt some sort of dullness across my chest, and with Trent, I got something
          > that I couldn't figure out what it was. I didn't know what to make of it at
          > the time so I dropped them both, but it was very different from when I did
          > it with Richard & Vineeto. Again, this is all subjective.

          yes, i got a similar impression when i met tarin for 4 hours in newyork. as richard said, he seemed aloof. we didn't talk much (which was odd considering the fact that there is a lot to discuss about AF in person) i was wondering if he was still hanging out in some sort of jhanic states. at that time, i rationalized it thinking that maybe it was his introverted personality (but then, maybe it is).

          > [...] Richard & Vineeto were much more vivacious and
          > full of life - more animated, more interested in enjoying life's pleasures
          > (such as trying out all the croissant places in town to find which places
          > made the best ones on which days). They would also talk about the meaning of
          > life, and they would get these very pleasant smiles on their faces once in a
          > while when the topic of purity came up. These things I didn't experience
          > with Tarin or Trent. 

          this is very refreshing to hear. obviously that's more fun than a consciousness without objects. :-)

          -srid
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