Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Bram, if you got hit by a bus tomorrow..

Expand Messages
  • captain stubing
    What should we do? What happens to your sources? -- -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 25, 2014
    • 0 Attachment
      What should we do?  What happens to your sources?

      --
      --
      You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
      Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
      For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
       
      ---
      You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
      To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
      For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
    • guns
      ... Do you not have a clone of the Mercurial repository? What kind of question is this? guns
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 25, 2014
      • 0 Attachment
        On Tue 25 Feb 2014 at 10:14:31PM -0500, captain stubing wrote:

        > What should we do? What happens to your sources?

        Do you not have a clone of the Mercurial repository? What kind of
        question is this?

        guns
      • Marc Weber
        ... What should we do if you got hit by a bus? :) (If Bram gets hit by a bus I hope the bus was driving at walking speed only) Multiple people have access to
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 26, 2014
        • 0 Attachment
          Excerpts from captain stubing's message of Wed Feb 26 03:14:31 +0000 2014:
          > What should we do? What happens to your sources?
          What should we do if you got hit by a bus? :)
          (If Bram gets hit by a bus I hope the bus was driving at walking
          speed only)

          Multiple people have access to the sourceforge website. Thus there are
          ways to continue this project easily. I think the same applies to
          mailinglists (but I'm not sure)

          hg sources: http://vim.sourceforge.net/download.php

          At least two clones are at github:
          http://vim-wiki.mawercer.de/wiki/vim-development/development.html

          And the source of vim is distributed dozen of times on many computers
          (because a lot of people do compile vim from source).

          most scripts of vim.sf.net are mirrored at vim-scripts (minus those
          having duplicate names - but they could be the exception).
          Often used plugins are installed many times by users - so there should
          be enough duplication.

          Currently neovim could make progress soon - so there might be more
          important questions if neovim succeeds and gains users - and how to
          cope/merge continue then. But we can wait 1-2 months before thinking
          about decisions - right now vim is the only stable solution for work
          IMHO.

          So there is not too much risk (not much more than has been in the past -
          I mean Yzis was a serious fork, neovim is another one happening right
          now)

          (As always its just my limited view)

          Marc Weber

          --
          --
          You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
          Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
          For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

          ---
          You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
          To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
          For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
        • Matteo Cavalleri
          ... I think he s talking about Bram sources, not vim s. I m not sure we can clone a human right now... science needs to advance further. -- -- You received
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 26, 2014
          • 0 Attachment
            > > What should we do? What happens to your sources?
            >
            > Do you not have a clone of the Mercurial repository? What kind of
            > question is this?

            I think he's talking about Bram sources, not vim's. I'm not sure we can clone a human right now... science needs to advance further.

            --
            --
            You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
            Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
            For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

            ---
            You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
            To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
            For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
          • Andre Sihera
            ... It s the stinging question about who gets control, obviously. -- -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 26, 2014
            • 0 Attachment
              On 26/02/14 12:15, guns wrote:
              > On Tue 25 Feb 2014 at 10:14:31PM -0500, captain stubing wrote:
              >
              >> What should we do? What happens to your sources?
              > Do you not have a clone of the Mercurial repository? What kind of
              > question is this?
              >
              > guns

              It's the stinging question about who gets control, obviously.

              --
              --
              You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
              Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
              For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

              ---
              You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
              To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
              For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
            • Christian Brabandt
              ... What do you mean? Everybody can publish its own repository. It s the user that will eventually decide which repository will be used as the master one. I
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 26, 2014
              • 0 Attachment
                Am 2014-02-26 12:58, schrieb Andre Sihera:
                > On 26/02/14 12:15, guns wrote:
                >> On Tue 25 Feb 2014 at 10:14:31PM -0500, captain stubing wrote:
                >>
                >>> What should we do? What happens to your sources?
                >> Do you not have a clone of the Mercurial repository? What kind of
                >> question is this?
                >
                > It's the stinging question about who gets control, obviously.

                What do you mean? Everybody can publish its own repository. It's the
                user
                that will eventually decide which repository will be used as the master
                one.

                I really don't see any point in this discussion.

                Best,
                Christian

                --
                --
                You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
                Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                ---
                You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
                To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
                For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
              • Andre Sihera
                ... On the contrary, the OP asks a very a reasonable question. Bram is the one major bottleneck in this project for getting patches and new features
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 26, 2014
                • 0 Attachment
                  On 26/02/14 21:06, Christian Brabandt wrote:
                  > Am 2014-02-26 12:58, schrieb Andre Sihera:
                  >> On 26/02/14 12:15, guns wrote:
                  >>> On Tue 25 Feb 2014 at 10:14:31PM -0500, captain stubing wrote:
                  >>>
                  >>>> What should we do? What happens to your sources?
                  >>> Do you not have a clone of the Mercurial repository? What kind of
                  >>> question is this?
                  >>
                  >> It's the stinging question about who gets control, obviously.
                  >
                  > What do you mean? Everybody can publish its own repository. It's the user
                  > that will eventually decide which repository will be used as the master
                  > one.
                  >
                  On the contrary, the OP asks a very a reasonable question.

                  Bram is the one major bottleneck in this project for getting patches and
                  new features implemented. But, ironically, he is also the anchor that has
                  kept the project together on the straight and very narrow path.

                  Anchor disappears, ship floats away.

                  Everybody can publish their own repository and, judging by the amount of
                  arguing and bickering about rewrites, new features, this and that language
                  and the many patches that don't get integrated etc., everybody probably
                  will. End of VIM as we know it.

                  > I really don't see any point in this discussion.
                  >

                  So I suppose if Bram died tomorrow and you were offered controlling duties
                  as he currently performs them, you would not be interested in the role?

                  > Best,
                  > Christian
                  >


                  --
                  --
                  You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
                  Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                  For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                  ---
                  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
                  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
                  For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
                • Christian Brabandt
                  ... And the user will decide, which fork to use instead. As happened 20 years ago with the many vi clones, when vim became the de facto standard. So what? ...
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 26, 2014
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > Bram is the one major bottleneck in this project for getting patches
                    > and
                    > new features implemented. But, ironically, he is also the anchor that
                    > has
                    > kept the project together on the straight and very narrow path.
                    >
                    > Anchor disappears, ship floats away.
                    >
                    > Everybody can publish their own repository and, judging by the amount
                    > of
                    > arguing and bickering about rewrites, new features, this and that
                    > language
                    > and the many patches that don't get integrated etc., everybody probably
                    > will. End of VIM as we know it.

                    And the user will decide, which fork to use instead. As happened 20
                    years ago
                    with the many vi clones, when vim became the de facto standard. So what?

                    >> I really don't see any point in this discussion.
                    >
                    > So I suppose if Bram died tomorrow and you were offered controlling
                    > duties
                    > as he currently performs them, you would not be interested in the role?

                    Perhaps I get hit by a bus, before I have ever the chance to take on any
                    other
                    role? Perhaps in the distant future I have no interest in developing
                    anymore?

                    Can we please focus on actual problems instead of discussing some
                    hypothetical
                    questions? Thanks.

                    Best,
                    Christian

                    --
                    --
                    You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
                    Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                    For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                    ---
                    You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
                    To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
                    For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
                  • Andre Sihera
                    ... I m a user and I, like the OP, would like to know how the stability and future of my editor of choice is going to be assured in the event that anybody
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 26, 2014
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 26/02/14 21:36, Christian Brabandt wrote:
                      > And the user will decide, which fork to use instead. As happened 20
                      > years ago
                      > with the many vi clones, when vim became the de facto standard. So what?

                      I'm a user and I, like the OP, would like to know how the stability and
                      future of
                      my editor of choice is going to be assured in the event that anybody
                      (including
                      possibly yourself if you took that opportunity) could/would not to do it
                      any more.
                      Especially those individuals *who have paid money* to contribute to and
                      further
                      ViM's development, they have a right to know.

                      > Can we please focus on actual problems instead of discussing some
                      > hypothetical
                      > questions? Thanks.

                      For any open source project that takes users money and believes it is
                      "valued" by
                      a large "user base", this is far from "hypothetical"; it is a very real
                      and non-trivial
                      discussion.

                      You want to see how it really should be done? Then read this:

                      http://p2pfoundation.net/Linux_-_Governance
                      (section called "Governance").

                      At least I know that Linux, its stability, and all it stands for, is
                      assured with or
                      without Mr. Torvalds. I'm sure that the world's biggest corporations
                      feel equally
                      as confident as I do which is why they stake their reputations on it
                      24/7, 365.

                      I agree, there are patches and features that need implementing. And for
                      you, as
                      a person who regularly contributes patches, that's a position I'm sure
                      you find
                      easy to take. However the *majority* of users who don't get involved in
                      physical
                      patch writing, will care more about whether their editor of choice has a
                      stable
                      future or not, not necessarily what goes into it. They are especially
                      not interested
                      in seeing maintenance for their favourite editor splinter into multiple
                      factions and
                      watching a big free-for-all to see who "wins", as if it was some kind of
                      horse race.
                      That kind of upheaval is something we don't need and shouldn't have to
                      inflict on
                      our users.

                      For all of us, but especially for our loyal "user base", this is an
                      issue that should
                      be addressed to some degree sooner rather than later.

                      --
                      --
                      You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
                      Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                      For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                      ---
                      You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
                      To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
                      For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
                    • Yuri Vic
                      ... Don t be so sure. Every successful project is driven by strong individual(s) leading it. Once individual(s) are gone, with no strong successors, the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 26, 2014
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > At least I know that Linux, its stability, and all it stands for, is
                        > assured with or
                        > without Mr. Torvalds. I'm sure that the world's biggest corporations
                        > feel equally
                        > as confident as I do which is why they stake their reputations on it
                        > 24/7, 365.

                        Don't be so sure. Every successful project is driven by strong individual(s) leading it. Once individual(s) are gone, with no strong successors, the project will go down. Your opinion is exactly what corporate managers want to believe, that they would set up some rules, and as long as those rules are in place and enforced, even monkeys can execute them and make the enterprise successful. But this is just a dream, a very comforting one, but not realistic. There is no successful governance by committee, or by popular vote, or by following some preset rules. Should be right people in place, this is the key. No 24/7, 365 security, sorry -)

                        --
                        --
                        You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
                        Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                        For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                        ---
                        You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
                        To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
                        For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
                      • Jan Larres
                        ... Vim/Bram doesn t take anyone s money. Bram encourages donations to a cause that has nothing to do with Vim as such and rewards people who do that with
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 26, 2014
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Andre Sihera <andre.sihera@...>:
                          > For any open source project that takes users money and believes it is
                          > "valued" by a large "user base", this is far from "hypothetical"; it
                          > is a very real and non-trivial discussion.

                          Vim/Bram doesn't "take" anyone's money. Bram encourages donations to a
                          cause that has nothing to do with Vim as such and rewards people who do
                          that with some (non-binding) votes. That's it. It's not a contract that
                          gives you any specific rights to Vim.

                          -Jan

                          --
                          -[ OpenPGP key ID: 00A0FD5F ]-
                          I don't need to be born again. I got it right the first time.
                          -- Dennis Miller

                          --
                          --
                          You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
                          Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                          For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                          ---
                          You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
                          To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
                          For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
                        • cptstubing
                          ... Thanks, Matteo -- you picked up on my veiled humor there. The question was meant to get everyone thinking about how this project works and about what
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 2, 2014
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 4:04:26 AM UTC-5, Matteo Cavalleri wrote:
                            > > > What should we do? What happens to your sources?
                            > >
                            > > Do you not have a clone of the Mercurial repository? What kind of
                            > > question is this?
                            >
                            > I think he's talking about Bram sources, not vim's. I'm not sure we can clone a human right now... science needs to advance further.

                            Thanks, Matteo -- you picked up on my veiled humor there. The question was meant to get everyone thinking about how this project works and about what would happen if Bram were gone. In the corporate world, a company might take out a "key man" insurance policy that would provide them with the necessary resources to recover from the untimely death of an irreplaceable or highly skilled/specialized person in the company.

                            It was short and maybe a little flippant-sounding the way I asked it, but I'm serious, and I hope Bram and everyone else will ponder the question a little. I am in no way meaning to denigrate anyone here -- it's been Bram's vision, dedication, and discerning guidance that has made vim the most excellent editor that it is today.

                            When I was considering the situation, I too had a vision like what Andre mentioned -- dozens of forked projects and no clear direction for the average user or even the empowered one who simply doesn't have the time to evaluate all of the choices. Further, I can envision a scenario where someone does take the helm of the project by nature of his/her leadership skills, yet lacks Bram's vision and steers us all into the rocks.

                            As for the assertion that governance by committee does not work, I challenge you to consider the longevity and the vastness-of-reach in each and every one of our lives that has come out of organizations like ANSI, ISO, and IEEE. Consider, also, POSIX: It's a mix of certain things that were not standardized, but were essentially de facto standards of a certain epoch, and other guidelines that were decided upon by committee. Even vim itself is mostly compliant with the POSIX vi standard, and effort was clearly made to document the places where it breaks that standard (vi_diff.txt).

                            So, yes, barring the possibility of cloning Bram, we should consider how we might continue to keep vim going as strongly as it is today with him at the helm. He himself is in a position to structure the future of the project beyond his own corporeal involvement, and I merely ask him to consider the question and the possible scenarios that he could influence now if he wanted to set such wheels in motion.

                            --
                            --
                            You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
                            Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                            For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                            ---
                            You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
                            To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
                            For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
                          • Ben Fritz
                            ... A committee certainly could govern development, voting if needed when consensus cannot be reached. There are some good ideas in this online book about
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 2, 2014
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Sunday, March 2, 2014 5:27:39 PM UTC-6, cptstubing wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > When I was considering the situation, I too had a vision like what Andre mentioned -- dozens of forked projects and no clear direction for the average user or even the empowered one who simply doesn't have the time to evaluate all of the choices. Further, I can envision a scenario where someone does take the helm of the project by nature of his/her leadership skills, yet lacks Bram's vision and steers us all into the rocks.
                              >
                              > As for the assertion that governance by committee does not work, I challenge you to consider the longevity and the vastness-of-reach in each and every one of our lives that has come out of organizations like ANSI, ISO, and IEEE. Consider, also, POSIX: It's a mix of certain things that were not standardized, but were essentially de facto standards of a certain epoch, and other guidelines that were decided upon by committee. Even vim itself is mostly compliant with the POSIX vi standard, and effort was clearly made to document the places where it breaks that standard (vi_diff.txt).
                              >

                              A committee certainly could govern development, voting if needed when consensus cannot be reached. There are some good ideas in this online book about managing an open-source project:

                              http://www.producingoss.com

                              In particular:

                              http://www.producingoss.com/en/social-infrastructure.html

                              --
                              --
                              You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
                              Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                              For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                              ---
                              You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
                              To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
                              For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.