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vim.org website redesign/update

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  • Leonard Ehrenfried
    Dear list, I really hope I don t hurt anyones s feeling by saying that the current vim.org website looks a little bit dated. I also happen to think that it
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 6, 2013
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      Dear list,

      I really hope I don't hurt anyones's feeling by saying that the current vim.org website looks a little bit dated. I also happen to think that it doesn't do a very good job of explaining what vim is and how to install it. Lastly, it doesn't give you any hints on how to effectively manage your plugins with tools like pathogen and/or vundle.

      I would like to change this and I was wondering if there is any sort of appetite for updating the website? I would volunteer to implement/lead this effort.

      In terms of inspiration I would look at the Linux kernel's website[0]. In my opinion it scores nicely in the areas of simplicity and usability.

      How can you know if I'm competent and trustworthy?

      I have been a web developer for the last 5 years and I have quite an active Github profile[1] I blog at http://leonard.io I'm also maintaining a vim syntax file[2]. Maybe this will give you an indication of the quality of my work.

      Before I get ahead of myself in terms of planning I would like to gauge the community's feelings towards an undertaking like this.

      Thanks a lot for listening,
      Leonard

      [0] https://kernel.org
      [1] https://github.com/lenniboy
      [2] https://code.google.com/p/vim/source/browse/runtime/syntax/sshdconfig.vim

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    • tux.
      ... Sorry, but that s wrong IMO. :) -- -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 6, 2013
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        Leonard Ehrenfried schrob am Mittwoch, 6. November 2013 um 22:54 Zeit:

        > I also happen to
        > think that it doesn't do a very good job of explaining what vim is
        > and how to install it.

        Sorry, but that's wrong IMO. :)

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      • Josh
        ... Sounds good. Note that thereÆs a lot of info on vim in other places, like the vim wiki: http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Vim_Tips_Wiki , or vimÆs documentation
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 6, 2013
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          On Nov 6, 2013, at 3:54 PM, Leonard Ehrenfried <leonard.ehrenfried@...> wrote:

          Dear list,

          I really hope I don't hurt anyones's feeling by saying that the current vim.org website looks a little bit dated. I also happen to think that it doesn't do a very good job of explaining what vim is and how to install it. Lastly, it doesn't give you any hints on how to effectively manage your plugins with tools like pathogen and/or bundle.

          Sounds good. Note that there’s a lot of info on vim in other places, like the vim wiki: http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Vim_Tips_Wiki , or vim’s documentation on source forge: http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/ , or questions on stackoverflow: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/vim .

          Also, it’d be cool to integrate with github and bitbucket for plugins, instead of hosting them ourselves. We could still track releases (even in the same way github does: https://github.com/blog/1547-release-your-software ).  Also we could track votes/github stars/whatever bitbucket does on the site.  Most if not all of this (plugin) stuff could be done through APIs.


          I would like to change this and I was wondering if there is any sort of appetite for updating the website? I would volunteer to implement/lead this effort.

          In terms of inspiration I would look at the Linux kernel's website[0]. In my opinion it scores nicely in the areas of simplicity and usability.

          How can you know if I'm competent and trustworthy?

          I have been a web developer for the last 5 years and I have quite an active Github profile[1] I blog at http://leonard.io. I'm also maintaining a vim syntax file[2]. Maybe this will give you an indication of the quality of my work.

          Before I get ahead of myself in terms of planning I would like to gauge the community's feelings towards an undertaking like this.

          I’m 100% with you on this. I’d say we need to:
          - Get buy in, are the original developers on board/ok with this? How about Bram?
          - Decide on tech. I don’t care too much what we use, but I’d suggest persona (https://login.persona.org/) for accounts/login.  http://asciinema.org/ Already does this to great effect, here’s the pull request where that was done (for reference): https://github.com/sickill/asciinema.org/pull/141 .
          - Design it: the GNOME developers kept their Gnome Shell design in a GitHub repo (https://github.com/GNOME/gnome-shell-design), but anything that allows us to discuss/iterate on designs would probably work.
          - Implement it. Again discussion out in the open would be best for this, GitHub and I think Bitbucket have pull requests that we can use to comment on code inline.

          So who’s in!?


          Thanks a lot for listening,
          Leonard

          [0] https://kernel.org
          [1] https://github.com/lenniboy
          [2] https://code.google.com/p/vim/source/browse/runtime/syntax/sshdconfig.vim

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        • Justin M. Keyes
          On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Leonard Ehrenfried ... For what it s worth, I am very much in favor of this. I am really glad to see this and the logo[1]
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 6, 2013
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            On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Leonard Ehrenfried
            <leonard.ehrenfried@...> wrote:
            > Before I get ahead of myself in terms of planning I would like to gauge the community's feelings towards an undertaking like this.

            For what it's worth, I am very much in favor of this. I am really glad
            to see this and the logo[1] getting some discussion. Branding and
            image are important, even for open source projects, because humans
            have limited time to evaluate every possibility in the world, so they
            often take shortcuts by making inferences from limited superficial
            information. And that's just a fact made necessary by the finiteness
            of time. And the value of paying some attention to "marketing" can
            have a disproportionately positive impact on the health of the
            project. New users benefit existing Vim users indirectly.

            Git did this about a year ago. Vim could do it and hopefully get a ton
            of mileage out of it. I certainly don't suggest having these
            discussions more than once per decade :)

            From my armchair position, I would also like to suggest that whatever
            technology or resources are used to update the website should be very
            low-maintenance and perhaps unsexy. Throw up some bootstrap template
            and it's going to be out of style in 6 months. I agree kernel.org is
            the right direction, although perhaps a tad austere. CGI for the
            backend is probably not a good idea, but I would also be wary of
            kitchen sinks like rails and django.

            If the website renders ok in w3m you will likely earn some extra good will :)

            I think it's good to outsource things like source hosting to services
            like github. Maybe vim.org shouldn't be concerned with that hosting
            burden. I would even suggest punting on the idea of user logins.

            vim.org should primarily provide:

            - the user manual (why does vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/ dominate
            search results for vim docs?)

            - an aggregator for plugins from all kinds of sources (github,
            bitbucket, sourceforge, vim_use threads, stackoverflow

            That's my three pennies.

            [1] I don't favor the new logo proposed in the other thread, but at
            least the notion has been raised.

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          • Justin M. Keyes
            ... That reminds of one more rather important function of vim.org: provide updated builds. Currently for Windows users, this is provided by random blogs, for
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 6, 2013
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              > doesn't do a very good job of explaining what vim is and how to install it

              That reminds of one more rather important function of vim.org: provide
              updated builds. Currently for Windows users, this is provided by
              random blogs, for which I am thankful, but didn't find for a very long
              time.
              Justin M. Keyes


              On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Justin M. Keyes <justinkz@...> wrote:
              > On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Leonard Ehrenfried
              > <leonard.ehrenfried@...> wrote:
              >> Before I get ahead of myself in terms of planning I would like to gauge the community's feelings towards an undertaking like this.
              >
              > For what it's worth, I am very much in favor of this. I am really glad
              > to see this and the logo[1] getting some discussion. Branding and
              > image are important, even for open source projects, because humans
              > have limited time to evaluate every possibility in the world, so they
              > often take shortcuts by making inferences from limited superficial
              > information. And that's just a fact made necessary by the finiteness
              > of time. And the value of paying some attention to "marketing" can
              > have a disproportionately positive impact on the health of the
              > project. New users benefit existing Vim users indirectly.
              >
              > Git did this about a year ago. Vim could do it and hopefully get a ton
              > of mileage out of it. I certainly don't suggest having these
              > discussions more than once per decade :)
              >
              > From my armchair position, I would also like to suggest that whatever
              > technology or resources are used to update the website should be very
              > low-maintenance and perhaps unsexy. Throw up some bootstrap template
              > and it's going to be out of style in 6 months. I agree kernel.org is
              > the right direction, although perhaps a tad austere. CGI for the
              > backend is probably not a good idea, but I would also be wary of
              > kitchen sinks like rails and django.
              >
              > If the website renders ok in w3m you will likely earn some extra good will :)
              >
              > I think it's good to outsource things like source hosting to services
              > like github. Maybe vim.org shouldn't be concerned with that hosting
              > burden. I would even suggest punting on the idea of user logins.
              >
              > vim.org should primarily provide:
              >
              > - the user manual (why does vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/ dominate
              > search results for vim docs?)
              >
              > - an aggregator for plugins from all kinds of sources (github,
              > bitbucket, sourceforge, vim_use threads, stackoverflow
              >
              > That's my three pennies.
              >
              > [1] I don't favor the new logo proposed in the other thread, but at
              > least the notion has been raised.

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            • Christian Brabandt
              ... Personally, I d really prefer an update to the design of that website. And others have expressed a similar wish [1], [2] and it could possibly include a
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 6, 2013
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                On Wed, November 6, 2013 22:54, Leonard Ehrenfried wrote:
                > I really hope I don't hurt anyones's feeling by saying that the current
                > vim.org website looks a little bit dated. I also happen to think that it
                > doesn't do a very good job of explaining what vim is and how to install
                > it. Lastly, it doesn't give you any hints on how to effectively manage
                > your plugins with tools like pathogen and/or vundle.
                >
                > I would like to change this and I was wondering if there is any sort of
                > appetite for updating the website? I would volunteer to implement/lead
                > this effort.

                Personally, I'd really prefer an update to the design of that
                website. And others have expressed a similar wish [1], [2] and
                it could possibly include a new logo, if we settle on a new one [3]

                But the problem seems to be on the infrastructure side, e.g.
                who get's access to the page source and can make changes. IIRC,
                Bram wasn't willing to have the webpage source available to the public.


                [1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/vim_use/lLp9EUVfbus
                [2] http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Vim.org_relaunch
                [3] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/vim_use/61DSyLWFeak

                regards,
                Christian

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              • Benjamin Klein
                ... Even if the siteÆs source were not to be made open source, a mere redesign of the existing site could (I think) help matters tremendously. -- b -- -- You
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 7, 2013
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                  On Nov 7, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Christian Brabandt <cblists@...> wrote:

                  > But the problem seems to be on the infrastructure side, e.g.
                  > who get's access to the page source and can make changes. IIRC,
                  > Bram wasn't willing to have the webpage source available to the public.

                  Even if the site’s source were not to be made open source, a mere redesign of the existing site could (I think) help matters tremendously.

                  --
                  b

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                • Marc Weber
                  A new vim webseite should support: - password reset (requires email sending, sourceforge did not allow this in the past) - integrates a wiki. I d personally
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 7, 2013
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                    A new vim webseite should support:

                    - password reset (requires email sending, sourceforge did not allow this
                    in the past)

                    - integrates a wiki. I'd personally like to see a git based one.
                    A very simple draft can be found at http://vim-wiki.mawercer.de/wiki/index.html

                    - fixes the "author of plugins must care about 3 files" issue:
                    github's README(.md/txt/..), install/info section on www.vim.org and
                    doc/* documentation.

                    Thus it should be able to display REDAME.txt / README.md like files

                    - allows browsing plugin files online

                    - allows searching in vim files (also plugin files), eg using github api

                    - integrates vim-addon-manager-known-repository like fatures

                    - allows registering plugins by "git(hub)/hg/..." like urls and be done,
                    then generates zip/.. whatsoever from that info
                    master branches are very stabel more often than not.

                    - should still care about everything which was important on the old
                    site, such as wishes about extensions, who spent how much, Uganda,
                    ....

                    - be very explicit about which operating systems are supported
                    officially, and who is testing features on those. Eg I think that
                    some features can only be "fixed" by introducing threading or similar
                    and I don't have OS2 for testing.

                    - should consider talking about the future of Vim (if known), roadmap
                    - even if its vague and uncertain.

                    - do whatever is necessary to improve collaboration. There are multiple
                    projects such as snipmate, vim-snippets, vim-addon-manager which are
                    maintained by multiple commnunity members. By updating from a github
                    url this "membership" work could be outsourced to external partise
                    such as github or similar.

                    I'm pretty sure that Bram remebers quite a lot of "discussions". The
                    last unanswered very important question by him is whether he would allow
                    a differenting hosting if its guaranteed to be payed for a couple of
                    years so that cloning repositories, caching source files, sending
                    emails and similar features can be implemented.

                    Of course - as always - this is only my limited view about what I think
                    would be good for the Vim project and community.

                    IMHO the first step is to find out what Vim and its community should be
                    tomorrow, then documend and move forward. People will join and help
                    probably.

                    Marc Weber

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                  • Leonard Ehrenfried
                    Hi Mark, sorry it has taken me a few days to reply. I wholeheartedly agree with most points you ve made and think a better integration with Github is quite
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 9, 2013
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                      Hi Mark,

                      sorry it has taken me a few days to reply.

                      I wholeheartedly agree with most points you've made and think a better integration with Github is quite important as most plugin development (or at least the sort of development we want to encourage) happens there. Most of the time I skip vim.org completely when searching for plugins and go directly to Github.

                      I wonder though if Bram can be convinced to let this happen though. 

                      I like your idea about the future direction of vim - that's exactly the sort of thinking we need.

                      Regarding the hosting situation, where is currently hosted and who pays for it? I don't think it should be too hard to find a company who would be willing to sponsor the hosting of vim.org. I think lots of companies who want to attract developers would jump at this opportunity considering that the cost would be below 100 € per month.

                      I'm not sure if convincing Bram outright is the way forward. Maybe it would be easier to "fork" the website and have something like vim-plugins.org first which simply pulls in information from github and vim.org. It this already works Bram would maybe see the benefits.

                      Thanks for listening,
                      Leonard

                      PS: Ich glaube wir können auch deutsch sprechen, oder?


                      On 8 November 2013 02:55, Marc Weber <marco-oweber@...> wrote:
                      A new vim webseite should support:

                      - password reset (requires email sending, sourceforge did not allow this
                        in the past)

                      - integrates a wiki. I'd personally like to see a git based one.
                        A very simple draft can be found at http://vim-wiki.mawercer.de/wiki/index.html

                      - fixes the "author of plugins must care about 3 files" issue:
                         github's README(.md/txt/..), install/info section on www.vim.org and
                         doc/* documentation.

                         Thus it should be able to display REDAME.txt / README.md like files

                      - allows browsing plugin files online

                      - allows searching in vim files (also plugin files), eg using github api

                      - integrates vim-addon-manager-known-repository like fatures

                      - allows registering plugins by "git(hub)/hg/..." like urls and be done,
                        then generates zip/.. whatsoever from that info
                        master branches are very stabel more often than not.

                      - should still care about everything which was important on the old
                        site, such as wishes about extensions, who spent how much, Uganda,
                        ....

                      - be very explicit about which operating systems are supported
                        officially, and who is testing features on those. Eg I think that
                        some features can only be "fixed" by introducing threading or similar
                        and I don't have OS2 for testing.

                      - should consider talking about the future of Vim (if known), roadmap
                       - even if its vague and uncertain.

                      - do whatever is necessary to improve collaboration. There are multiple
                        projects such as snipmate, vim-snippets, vim-addon-manager which are
                        maintained by multiple commnunity members. By updating from a github
                        url this "membership" work could be outsourced to external partise
                        such as github or similar.

                      I'm pretty sure that Bram remebers quite a lot of "discussions". The
                      last unanswered very important question by him is whether he would allow
                      a differenting hosting if its guaranteed to be payed for a couple of
                      years so that cloning repositories, caching source files, sending
                      emails and similar features can be implemented.

                      Of course - as always - this is only my limited view about what I think
                      would be good for the Vim project and community.

                      IMHO the first step is to find out what Vim and its community should be
                      tomorrow, then documend and move forward. People will join and help
                      probably.

                      Marc Weber

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                    • Leonard Ehrenfried
                      Even though I don t really want to start a discussion about technologies, I agree with Justin that most of vim.org s content is static and doesn t need a
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 9, 2013
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                        Even though I don't really want to start a discussion about technologies, I agree with Justin that most of vim.org's content is static and doesn't need a server-side framework. FWIW, kernel.org is made with a static site generator.

                        The plugins section is obviously different and would need quite a bit of server-side code. It think this part is more sensitive in terms of security and spam-prevention.

                        My question is how to move this forward? Is it at all realistic to get buy-in by the core developers outright or is it more sensible to build some form of proof of concept first to show how things could work?

                        Leonard



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                      • Marc Weber
                        Hi Leonard Ehrenfried, ... I/You need. Open source is about being able to adjust software to your own selfish needs. Its not about altruism. And it looks like
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 9, 2013
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                          Hi Leonard Ehrenfried,

                          > I like your idea about the future direction of vim - that's exactly the
                          > sort of thinking we need.
                          I/You need. Open source is about being able to adjust software to your
                          own selfish needs. Its not about altruism. And it looks like its me
                          needing a wiki only, because its me contributing to mine only.
                          Vim wikia has had a similar experience.

                          > Regarding the hosting situation, where is currently hosted
                          sourceforge, sourceforge

                          > it? I don't think it should be too hard to find a company who would be
                          > willing to sponsor the hosting of vim.org. I think lots of companies who
                          > want to attract developers would jump at this opportunity considering that
                          > the cost would be below 100 € per month.
                          If there a couple of companies who want to spend 100€ per month on Vim related
                          topics let me know. That would fund some work on the core :)

                          > I'm not sure if convincing Bram outright is the way forward. Maybe it would
                          It must be him deciding whether he'd accept different (self managed)
                          hosting. There are quite many options. Currently we have:
                          - vim wikia
                          - vim-scripts
                          - vim.sf.net = vim.org
                          - vam.mawercer.de (packages and sources connected to github, view of
                          vim-addon-manager-known-repositories)
                          - my vim wiki (based on git)

                          It would be nicer if this all would be integrated in a central place.

                          > PS: Ich glaube wir können auch deutsch sprechen, oder?
                          Not when sending to vim_dev

                          Marc Weber
                          Im Tannhoernle 4/1
                          D-78052 Villingen-Schwenningen
                          Germany

                          Mobil: 017660032282

                          Steuernummer: 22483/ 29259
                          Finanzamt Villingen-Schwenningen

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