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Re: [TRANSLATION BUG] (ru) Bug in E742 error message

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  • Sergey Alyoshin
    ... VIM version? In src/po/ru.po from hg this message is: msgid E742: Cannot change value of %s msgstr E742: Невозможно изменить
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 31, 2013
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      On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 11:18 PM, ZyX <zyx.vim@...> wrote:
      > If you do `call extend(v:, {})` you will see E742 message that spells like this:
      >
      > E742: Невозможно изменить значение параметр extend()
      >
      > , while it should spell like this:
      >
      > E742: Невозможно изменить значение параметра extend()

      VIM version? In src/po/ru.po from hg this message is:
      msgid "E742: Cannot change value of %s"
      msgstr "E742: Невозможно изменить значение %s"

      > (note the last-but-one word). The "extend() argument" string that is
      > translated here seems to be used only in one place: as an argument to
      > tv_check_lock, but tv_check_lock itself uses this in two places: in messages
      > "E741: Value is locked: %s" and "E742: Cannot change value of %s". It is
      > logical to change translation of "E741: Value is locked: %s" to "E741:
      > Значение %s заблокировано" (previously: "E741: Значение заблокировано: %s")
      > and translation of all ".*() argument" messages to "параметра .*()".

      "Argument" already translated as "параметр" in all messages in src/po/ru.po


      > It is also strange that the original uses two different forms for the
      > semantically similar messages: "E741: Value is locked: %s" (for user-locked
      > values) and "E742: Cannot change value of %s" (for vim-locked values).

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    • Nikolay Pavlov
      ... It is exactly the same as I am saying. Vim version is 7.4.10. ... messages ... %s ) ... src/po/ru.po Здесь неправильный падеж.
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 31, 2013
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        On Aug 31, 2013 4:51 PM, "Sergey Alyoshin" <alyoshin.s@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 11:18 PM, ZyX <zyx.vim@...> wrote:
        > > If you do `call extend(v:, {})` you will see E742 message that spells like this:
        > >
        > >     E742: Невозможно изменить значение параметр extend()
        > >
        > > , while it should spell like this:
        > >
        > >     E742: Невозможно изменить значение параметра extend()
        >
        > VIM version? In src/po/ru.po from hg this message is:
        > msgid "E742: Cannot change value of %s"
        > msgstr "E742: Невозможно изменить значение %s"

        It is exactly the same as I am saying. Vim version is 7.4.10.

        > > (note the last-but-one word). The "extend() argument" string that is
        > > translated here seems to be used only in one place: as an argument to
        > > tv_check_lock, but tv_check_lock itself uses this in two places: in messages
        > > "E741: Value is locked: %s" and "E742: Cannot change value of %s". It is
        > > logical to change translation of "E741: Value is locked: %s" to "E741:
        > > Значение %s заблокировано" (previously: "E741: Значение заблокировано: %s")
        > > and translation of all ".*() argument" messages to "параметра .*()".
        >
        > "Argument" already translated as "параметр" in all messages in src/po/ru.po

        Здесь неправильный падеж. Нужно переводить "параметра", не "параметр". Или изменить сообщения, чтобы он был правильным.

        It uses invalid case. You should translate this text as "параметра", not "параметр". Or change messages so that the case is no longer invalid.

        >
        > > It is also strange that the original uses two different forms for the
        > > semantically similar messages: "E741: Value is locked: %s" (for user-locked
        > > values) and "E742: Cannot change value of %s" (for vim-locked values).
        >
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      • Sergey Alyoshin
        ... Ok, now I get it. Here is the patch. -- -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 31, 2013
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          On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 7:33 PM, Nikolay Pavlov <zyx.vim@...> wrote:
          > It uses invalid case. You should translate this text as "параметра", not
          > "параметр". Or change messages so that the case is no longer invalid.

          Ok, now I get it. Here is the patch.

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        • Tony Mechelynck
          On 30/08/13 21:18, ZyX wrote: [...] ... I suppose this is to allow different translations for the case where the value is locked (заблокировано)
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 31, 2013
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            On 30/08/13 21:18, ZyX wrote:
            [...]

            >
            > It is also strange that the original uses two different forms for the semantically similar messages: "E741: Value is locked: %s" (for user-locked values) and "E742: Cannot change value of %s" (for vim-locked values).
            >

            I suppose this is to allow different translations for the case where the
            value is "locked" (заблокировано) by the user, who could then "unlock"
            (отблокировать? отпереть?) it, and for the case where it is
            "unchangeable" (locked by Vim: неизменимо? неизменяемо?)


            Best regards,
            Tony.
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            to the
            net: 28.8...ISDN...cable modem...T1...T3.

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          • ZyX
            ... ?! How any form of message can *allow* different translations? I know a way to *forbid* *same* translations: just use other % flag(s) and using the same
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 31, 2013
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              > I suppose this is to allow different translations for the case where the
              > value is "locked" (заблокировано) by the user, who could then "unlock"
              > (отблокировать? отпереть?) it, and for the case where it is
              > "unchangeable" (locked by Vim: неизменимо? неизменяемо?)

              ?! How any form of message can *allow* different translations? I know a way to *forbid* *same* translations: just use other % flag(s) and using the same arguments will not work. If there were some numbers different plural forms could be specified. Here both messages contain text and %s; and both %s receive the same text due to the way code is written: "extend() argument" is translated before translating error messages and passed as an argument to a function that actually emits both errors.

              By the way, "unlock" is usually translated as "разблокировать".

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            • Tony Mechelynck
              ... Translating the same way might make sense for one target language and not for another, so I didn t speak of forbidding same translations. OTOH it s quite
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 31, 2013
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                On 31/08/13 21:34, ZyX wrote:
                >> I suppose this is to allow different translations for the case where the
                >> value is "locked" (заблокировано) by the user, who could then "unlock"
                >> (отблокировать? отпереть?) it, and for the case where it is
                >> "unchangeable" (locked by Vim: неизменимо? неизменяемо?)
                >
                > ?! How any form of message can *allow* different translations? I know a way to *forbid* *same* translations: just use other % flag(s) and using the same arguments will not work. If there were some numbers different plural forms could be specified. Here both messages contain text and %s; and both %s receive the same text due to the way code is written: "extend() argument" is translated before translating error messages and passed as an argument to a function that actually emits both errors.
                >
                > By the way, "unlock" is usually translated as "разблокировать".
                >
                Translating the same way might make sense for one target language and
                not for another, so I didn't speak of forbidding same translations. OTOH
                it's quite simple, but possibly not desirable, to forbid different
                translations, it's to use the same source text. If two slightly
                different (or maybe not so slightly different) wordings are used in
                English for what you called "semantically similar" (and I add: not
                exactly synonymous) messages, then it is possible to translate them
                differently into the languages where the wording difference makes sense.

                I suppose that the fact that "parameter" is first translated "параметр"
                out of context makes it difficult to get the target text "значение
                параметра" with the appropriate genitive case, where one of the words
                comes from a printf (or similar) template and the other from a %s
                replacement string.

                Best regards,
                Tony.
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              • ZyX
                ... And this is what actually happened. I bet this error would not appear if English messages were worded similarly: because similarly worded messages are
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 31, 2013
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                  > Translating the same way might make sense for one target language and
                  > not for another, so I didn't speak of forbidding same translations. OTOH
                  > it's quite simple, but possibly not desirable, to forbid different
                  > translations, it's to use the same source text. If two slightly
                  > different (or maybe not so slightly different) wordings are used in
                  > English for what you called "semantically similar" (and I add: not
                  > exactly synonymous) messages, then it is possible to translate them
                  > differently into the languages where the wording difference makes sense.

                  And this is what actually happened.

                  I bet this error would not appear if English messages were worded similarly: because similarly worded messages are likely to be translated by similarly worded messages in another language *and* they come one after each other. I would not bet if they were not located alongside though: they could get different translations just because different translations look better (it may also be the reason for different wording in English: one looked better in one case, other looked better in the other).

                  I am looking from my point of view (i.e. what would I do if I was translating text) though: beauty matters for me, consistency matters more, but neither will make me remember translation I wrote a hundred lines ago.

                  > I suppose that the fact that "parameter" is first translated "параметр"
                  > out of context makes it difficult to get the target text "значение
                  > параметра" with the appropriate genitive case, where one of the words
                  > comes from a printf (or similar) template and the other from a %s
                  > replacement string.

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