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Re: FW: use of vim signs

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  • Christian Brabandt
    Bram, ... displaying the absolute line number instead of the zero for relative line numbering seems to have caused many controversial opinions here and at
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 2, 2013
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      Bram,

      On Do, 30 Mai 2013, Christian Brabandt wrote:

      > Forwarding to vim-dev
      >
      > On Mi, 29 Mai 2013, Ben Fritz wrote:
      >
      > > I like the proposal by "glts" myself:
      > >
      > > > - ":set nonu nornu" means: I don't want any line numbers;
      > > > - ":set nu nornu" means: I want to see only absolute numbers;
      > > > - ":set nonu rnu" means: I want to see only relative numbers;
      > > > - ":set nu rnu" means: I want to have the best of both worlds.
      > >
      > > Christian, what is the problem you have with this approach?
      >
      > I think, this is confusing. But as I said, I don't have a strong opinion
      > on that, so here is a patch to try out:

      displaying the absolute line number instead of the zero for relative
      line numbering seems to have caused many controversial opinions here and
      at vim-use (but I have not seen it in the latest todo.txt file).

      Would you consider any of the patches that make this behaviour
      customizable for the vim 7.4 release?

      regards,
      Christian
      --
      Willst du den Wert des Geldes kennenlernen, geh und versuche dir
      welches zu borgen.
      -- Benjamin Franklin

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    • Bram Moolenaar
      ... There is too much discussion about this. I think the current behavior is OK and does not have enough disadvantage to justify adding yet another option. --
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 2, 2013
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        Christian Brabandt wrote:

        > On Do, 30 Mai 2013, Christian Brabandt wrote:
        >
        > > Forwarding to vim-dev
        > >
        > > On Mi, 29 Mai 2013, Ben Fritz wrote:
        > >
        > > > I like the proposal by "glts" myself:
        > > >
        > > > > - ":set nonu nornu" means: I don't want any line numbers;
        > > > > - ":set nu nornu" means: I want to see only absolute numbers;
        > > > > - ":set nonu rnu" means: I want to see only relative numbers;
        > > > > - ":set nu rnu" means: I want to have the best of both worlds.
        > > >
        > > > Christian, what is the problem you have with this approach?
        > >
        > > I think, this is confusing. But as I said, I don't have a strong opinion
        > > on that, so here is a patch to try out:
        >
        > displaying the absolute line number instead of the zero for relative
        > line numbering seems to have caused many controversial opinions here and
        > at vim-use (but I have not seen it in the latest todo.txt file).
        >
        > Would you consider any of the patches that make this behaviour
        > customizable for the vim 7.4 release?

        There is too much discussion about this. I think the current behavior
        is OK and does not have enough disadvantage to justify adding yet
        another option.

        --
        hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
        42. Your virtual girlfriend finds a new net sweetheart with a larger bandwidth.

        /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
        /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
        \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
        \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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      • Grant Farnsworth
        ... There s a reason there s a lot of discussion about it, though. For those who use relative line numbering this is an important issue. Leaving it in a
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 2, 2013
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          On Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:57:33 AM UTC-4, Bram Moolenaar wrote:

          > There is too much discussion about this. I think the current behavior
          > is OK and does not have enough disadvantage to justify adding yet
          > another option.

          There's a reason there's a lot of discussion about it, though. For those who use relative line numbering this is an important issue. Leaving it in a state that seriously (and negatively) affects a sizeable proportion of those who use it, particularly when the prior behavior did not do this, indicates to me that you may not care much about relative line numbering in general, not that those who use it are indifferent about how it works or that the change is insignificant.

          I opened screen.c to patch my local copy so it would work the way I want and noticed that the line numbering was consuming a full 6 columns of my 80 column terminal because of this new feature. That is far more than it should. Multiplied across all the users who do or will use relative line numbering, this is by no means an insignificant loss in visible screen area and productivity.

          I can understand not caring all that much to change (or rather, unchange) a feature that isn't integrated into your personal workflow. However, in all humility I believe it hasn't been discussed enough. It was added without much discussion because when you just hear about it, it sounds like it adds something without really costing anything. In practice, though, it costs quite a bit. This was by no means a small change to the workings of vim, and it removed valuable functionality without offering users a chance to preserve the way it worked before, which was better.

          In light of that, I think it would be best not to be premature in making judgments about its importance or how acceptable the current state is, even if there are many other things on developers' minds now. Don't you?

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        • Christian Brabandt
          Hi Bram! ... Note, that latest patch I sent, does not require an extra option, is rather small, makes the code much more readable (imho) and we can even get
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 2, 2013
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            Hi Bram!

            On So, 02 Jun 2013, Bram Moolenaar wrote:

            > There is too much discussion about this. I think the current behavior
            > is OK and does not have enough disadvantage to justify adding yet
            > another option.

            Note, that latest patch I sent, does not require an extra option, is
            rather small, makes the code much more readable (imho) and we can even
            get rid of test89.

            regards,
            Christian
            --
            Ich leider nicht, meine Freunde; aber ich fühle eine gewisse
            Schwierigkeit zu existieren.
            -- Bernard Le Bovier de Fontenelle

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          • Bram Moolenaar
            ... You mean the patch you sent on May 30? I don t see anybody responding that they like that solution. -- hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 2, 2013
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              Christian Brabandt wrote:

              > On So, 02 Jun 2013, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
              >
              > > There is too much discussion about this. I think the current behavior
              > > is OK and does not have enough disadvantage to justify adding yet
              > > another option.
              >
              > Note, that latest patch I sent, does not require an extra option, is
              > rather small, makes the code much more readable (imho) and we can even
              > get rid of test89.

              You mean the patch you sent on May 30?
              I don't see anybody responding that they like that solution.

              --
              hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
              52. You ask a plumber how much it would cost to replace the chair in front of
              your computer with a toilet.

              /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
              /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
              \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
              \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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            • glts
              ... This is exactly one of the reasons people are calling for a proper issue tracker on BitBucket or similar. I remember reading one dismissive and three
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 2, 2013
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                On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:30:20 PM UTC+2, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                > Christian Brabandt wrote:
                >
                > > Note, that latest patch I sent, does not require an extra option, is
                > > rather small, makes the code much more readable (imho) and we can even
                > > get rid of test89.
                >
                > You mean the patch you sent on May 30?
                > I don't see anybody responding that they like that solution.

                This is exactly one of the reasons people are calling for a proper issue
                tracker on BitBucket or similar. I remember reading one dismissive and
                three favourable reactions to this idea either on vim_dev or on vim_use.
                On an issue tracker these would have been impossible to overlook.

                I proposed this originally but I'm still undecided. I think it would be
                good to hear a few more voices.

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              • Grant Farnsworth
                ... In my opinion this is the best solution I have heard. It preserves the functionality of what people on both sides of the issue want without adding
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 2, 2013
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                  > - ":set nonu nornu" means: I don't want any line numbers;
                  > - ":set nu nornu" means: I want to see only absolute numbers;
                  > - ":set nonu rnu" means: I want to see only relative numbers;
                  > - ":set nu rnu" means: I want to have the best of both worlds.

                  In my opinion this is the best solution I have heard. It preserves the functionality of what people on both sides of the issue want without adding additional options.

                  I think it actually makes the numbering options in question a little *more* intuitive: I recall that I was confused when I started using vim because I was not expecting setting nu to also unset rnu and vice versa. I guess I was expecting to see both relative numbers and absolute numbers if both were set to true, even though it is unlikely I would ever want it that way. So to me having both options set to true result in a hybrid numbering scheme that includes the current absolute number and the other numbers as relative makes sense.

                  I believe this is what Christian's patch does, so count me as a fan. Sorry I didn't speak up in support earlier.

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                • Bram Moolenaar
                  ... There already is an issue tracker. -- hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict: 54. You start tilting your head sideways to smile. :-) /// Bram
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 2, 2013
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                    Glts wrote:

                    > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:30:20 PM UTC+2, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                    > > Christian Brabandt wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Note, that latest patch I sent, does not require an extra option, is
                    > > > rather small, makes the code much more readable (imho) and we can even
                    > > > get rid of test89.
                    > >
                    > > You mean the patch you sent on May 30?
                    > > I don't see anybody responding that they like that solution.
                    >
                    > This is exactly one of the reasons people are calling for a proper issue
                    > tracker on BitBucket or similar. I remember reading one dismissive and
                    > three favourable reactions to this idea either on vim_dev or on vim_use.
                    > On an issue tracker these would have been impossible to overlook.
                    >
                    > I proposed this originally but I'm still undecided. I think it would be
                    > good to hear a few more voices.

                    There already is an issue tracker.

                    --
                    hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                    54. You start tilting your head sideways to smile. :-)

                    /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                    /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                    \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
                    \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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                  • ZyX ZyX
                    ... even ... I can hardly call what Google code has an issue tracker. It lacks basic functionality. It does not even support formatting and attachments, not to
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 2, 2013
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                      On Jun 3, 2013 1:09 AM, "Bram Moolenaar" <Bram@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Glts wrote:
                      >
                      > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:30:20 PM UTC+2, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                      > > > Christian Brabandt wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > Note, that latest patch I sent, does not require an extra option, is
                      > > > > rather small, makes the code much more readable (imho) and we can even
                      > > > > get rid of test89.
                      > > >
                      > > > You mean the patch you sent on May 30?
                      > > > I don't see anybody responding that they like that solution.
                      > >
                      > > This is exactly one of the reasons people are calling for a proper issue
                      > > tracker on BitBucket or similar. I remember reading one dismissive and
                      > > three favourable reactions to this idea either on vim_dev or on vim_use.
                      > > On an issue tracker these would have been impossible to overlook.
                      > >
                      > > I proposed this originally but I'm still undecided. I think it would be
                      > > good to hear a few more voices.
                      >
                      > There already is an issue tracker.

                      I can hardly call what Google code has an issue tracker. It lacks basic functionality. It does not even support formatting and attachments, not to mention more advanced things like components. Or such a thing like finely looking UI. It is not surprising most people do not want to use it.

                      And there are no PR's here. Other issue tracker problems are tolerable,  absence of PR's and attachments makes it impossible to hold patches there making it useless when it comes to resolving the mentioned problem.

                      > --
                      > hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                      > 54. You start tilting your head sideways to smile. :-)
                      >
                      >  /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net   \\\
                      > ///        sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                      > \\\  an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org        ///
                      >  \\\            help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org    ///
                      >
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                    • Bram Moolenaar
                      ... It does support attachments. ... What s a PR? Problem Report? I don t think that the functionality of the Issue Tracker is relevant. What matters is that
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 3, 2013
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                        ZyX wrote:

                        > On Jun 3, 2013 1:09 AM, "Bram Moolenaar" <Bram@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Glts wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:30:20 PM UTC+2, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                        > > > > Christian Brabandt wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > Note, that latest patch I sent, does not require an extra option, is
                        > > > > > rather small, makes the code much more readable (imho) and we
                        > > > > > can even get rid of test89.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > You mean the patch you sent on May 30?
                        > > > > I don't see anybody responding that they like that solution.
                        > > >
                        > > > This is exactly one of the reasons people are calling for a proper issue
                        > > > tracker on BitBucket or similar. I remember reading one dismissive and
                        > > > three favourable reactions to this idea either on vim_dev or on vim_use.
                        > > > On an issue tracker these would have been impossible to overlook.
                        > > >
                        > > > I proposed this originally but I'm still undecided. I think it would be
                        > > > good to hear a few more voices.
                        > >
                        > > There already is an issue tracker.
                        >
                        > I can hardly call what Google code has an issue tracker. It lacks basic
                        > functionality. It does not even support formatting and attachments, not to
                        > mention more advanced things like components. Or such a thing like finely
                        > looking UI. It is not surprising most people do not want to use it.

                        It does support attachments.

                        > And there are no PR's here. Other issue tracker problems are tolerable,
                        > absence of PR's and attachments makes it impossible to hold patches there
                        > making it useless when it comes to resolving the mentioned problem.

                        What's a PR? Problem Report?

                        I don't think that the functionality of the Issue Tracker is relevant.
                        What matters is that the discussions happen on the vim-dev maillist,
                        that's where the developers are. I don't see that changing no matter
                        how beautiful or functional any issue tracker would be.

                        For me, the main issue with Issue trackers is that I can't edit them
                        with Vim. Switching to a browser and having to click around slows down
                        my work. That's why I use the todo list.

                        --
                        hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                        58. You turn on your computer and turn off your wife.

                        /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                        /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                        \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
                        \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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                      • Ben Fritz
                        ... I think he is referring to a pull request , so that somebody can fix an issue in a clone of the repository, and request that you pull in and merge the
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 3, 2013
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                          On Monday, June 3, 2013 4:16:12 AM UTC-5, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                          > ZyX wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > On Jun 3, 2013 1:09 AM, "Bram Moolenaar" <Bram@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > Glts wrote:
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:30:20 PM UTC+2, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                          >
                          > > > > > Christian Brabandt wrote:
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > > Note, that latest patch I sent, does not require an extra option, is
                          >
                          > > > > > > rather small, makes the code much more readable (imho) and we
                          >
                          > > > > > > can even get rid of test89.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > You mean the patch you sent on May 30?
                          >
                          > > > > > I don't see anybody responding that they like that solution.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > This is exactly one of the reasons people are calling for a proper issue
                          >
                          > > > > tracker on BitBucket or similar. I remember reading one dismissive and
                          >
                          > > > > three favourable reactions to this idea either on vim_dev or on vim_use.
                          >
                          > > > > On an issue tracker these would have been impossible to overlook.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > I proposed this originally but I'm still undecided. I think it would be
                          >
                          > > > > good to hear a few more voices.
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > There already is an issue tracker.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > I can hardly call what Google code has an issue tracker. It lacks basic
                          >
                          > > functionality. It does not even support formatting and attachments, not to
                          >
                          > > mention more advanced things like components. Or such a thing like finely
                          >
                          > > looking UI. It is not surprising most people do not want to use it.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > It does support attachments.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > And there are no PR's here. Other issue tracker problems are tolerable,
                          >
                          > > absence of PR's and attachments makes it impossible to hold patches there
                          >
                          > > making it useless when it comes to resolving the mentioned problem.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > What's a PR? Problem Report?
                          >

                          I think he is referring to a "pull request", so that somebody can fix an issue in a clone of the repository, and request that you pull in and merge the changes.

                          I didn't get the impression that was something you'd want to do anyway.

                          But maybe you'd start accepting Hg "bundle"s? Then there would be no doubt where the changes were based on and less bitrot compared to a patch (though a merge or rebase will be needed).

                          >
                          > I don't think that the functionality of the Issue Tracker is relevant.
                          >
                          > What matters is that the discussions happen on the vim-dev maillist,
                          >
                          > that's where the developers are. I don't see that changing no matter
                          >
                          > how beautiful or functional any issue tracker would be.
                          >
                          >

                          GitHub's issue tracker is very pretty and has a lot of features. I haven't used BitBucket, I imagine it is similar. Google Code is not as nice, but it's certainly not the worst I've seen. And if you don't plan to use a feature, I don't think it's relevant whether it's there or not.

                          >
                          > For me, the main issue with Issue trackers is that I can't edit them
                          >
                          > with Vim. Switching to a browser and having to click around slows down
                          >
                          > my work. That's why I use the todo list.
                          >

                          One problem with the todo list, is that it is not up-to-date until you publish runtime files periodically. So sometimes it is hard to tell whether you noticed a patch or fixed a bug in a later version. And, once a bug goes away from the TODO list, nobody can find it later to see that it was an issue but has been fixed (and when).

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                        • Bram Moolenaar
                          ... Context diffs work just fine. Anybody with basic Linux tools can use them, no need to figure out hg or git commands and setting up an environment where
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 3, 2013
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                            Ben Fritz wrote:

                            > On Monday, June 3, 2013 4:16:12 AM UTC-5, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                            > > ZyX wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > On Jun 3, 2013 1:09 AM, "Bram Moolenaar" <Bram@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > > Glts wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:30:20 PM UTC+2, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > > > > Christian Brabandt wrote:
                            >
                            > [...]
                            > > > And there are no PR's here. Other issue tracker problems are tolerable,
                            > > > absence of PR's and attachments makes it impossible to hold patches there
                            > > > making it useless when it comes to resolving the mentioned problem.
                            > >
                            > > What's a PR? Problem Report?
                            >
                            > I think he is referring to a "pull request", so that somebody can fix
                            > an issue in a clone of the repository, and request that you pull in
                            > and merge the changes.
                            >
                            > I didn't get the impression that was something you'd want to do anyway.
                            >
                            > But maybe you'd start accepting Hg "bundle"s? Then there would be no
                            > doubt where the changes were based on and less bitrot compared to a
                            > patch (though a merge or rebase will be needed).

                            Context diffs work just fine. Anybody with basic Linux tools can use
                            them, no need to figure out hg or git commands and setting up an
                            environment where they work. I hardly ever had a problem with "bitrot",
                            except for refactorings where nothing would help.

                            [...]

                            > One problem with the todo list, is that it is not up-to-date until you
                            > publish runtime files periodically. So sometimes it is hard to tell
                            > whether you noticed a patch or fixed a bug in a later version. And,
                            > once a bug goes away from the TODO list, nobody can find it later to
                            > see that it was an issue but has been fixed (and when).

                            Keeping the TODO list up-to-date is less work than updating stuff on
                            some website. Whatever issue tracker there is, it's not going to make
                            MY work more efficient. And since I'm the bottleneck that's what
                            matters.

                            There was a promise from someone to keep the Issue Tracker up to date,
                            close fixed issues and so on, but that doesn't really appear to happen.
                            I don't really have time to do that on top of everything else.

                            In an ideal world everything happens wonderfully, we'll have to live
                            with the real world.

                            --
                            hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                            68. Your cat always puts viruses on your dogs homepage

                            /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                            /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
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                          • Ben Fritz
                            Sorry for the duplicate, Bram. I meant to include the list and forgot to reply all . ... I assume you keep the todo list up-to-date as you work, but you just
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 3, 2013
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                              Sorry for the duplicate, Bram. I meant to include the list and forgot to "reply all".

                              On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Bram Moolenaar <Bram@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Ben Fritz wrote:
                              >
                              >> One problem with the todo list, is that it is not up-to-date until you
                              >> publish runtime files periodically. So sometimes it is hard to tell
                              >> whether you noticed a patch or fixed a bug in a later version. And,
                              >> once a bug goes away from the TODO list, nobody can find it later to
                              >> see that it was an issue but has been fixed (and when).
                              >
                              > Keeping the TODO list up-to-date is less work than updating stuff on
                              > some website. Whatever issue tracker there is, it's not going to make
                              > MY work more efficient. And since I'm the bottleneck that's what
                              > matters.
                              >

                              I assume you keep the todo list up-to-date as you work, but you just
                              don't commit/push it until you have other runtime file updates to
                              push. Do you think you could commit/push the TODO list alongside the
                              patch (or patch series) when you apply it? That might help to some
                              extent. Looking at the patches README can help figure out when/if
                              something got fixed. But it is still sometimes hard to figure out from
                              the short patch description, what the specific issue is. An issue
                              tracker ID is helpful there, but a vim_dev discussion link might do as
                              well. Or at least a date to go with the name of the person
                              reporting/fixing it.

                              List admins (or any other responders on the list) can help with having
                              too many different discussions on the same issue, by referring any
                              duplicate discussions back to the first discussion and continuing
                              there only. There is a "close topic" action admins can apply to any
                              thread, I assume this will prevent new posts to a topic if it has been
                              referred to a different thread.

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                            • ZyX ZyX
                              ... tolerable, ... there ... The basic idea of having an issue tracker is that *all* bugs, feature requests and pull requests (PR s) go there. Thus you don t
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 3, 2013
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                                On Jun 3, 2013 7:42 PM, "Bram Moolenaar" <Bram@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Ben Fritz wrote:
                                >
                                > > On Monday, June 3, 2013 4:16:12 AM UTC-5, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                                > > > ZyX wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > On Jun 3, 2013 1:09 AM, "Bram Moolenaar" <Bram@...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > > Glts wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:30:20 PM UTC+2, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > > > > Christian Brabandt wrote:
                                > >
                                > > [...]
                                > > > > And there are no PR's here. Other issue tracker problems are tolerable,
                                > > > > absence of PR's and attachments makes it impossible to hold patches there
                                > > > > making it useless when it comes to resolving the mentioned problem.
                                > > >
                                > > > What's a PR?  Problem Report?
                                > >
                                > > I think he is referring to a "pull request", so that somebody can fix
                                > > an issue in a clone of the repository, and request that you pull in
                                > > and merge the changes.
                                > >
                                > > I didn't get the impression that was something you'd want to do anyway.
                                > >
                                > > But maybe you'd start accepting Hg "bundle"s? Then there would be no
                                > > doubt where the changes were based on and less bitrot compared to a
                                > > patch (though a merge or rebase will be needed).
                                >
                                > Context diffs work just fine.  Anybody with basic Linux tools can use
                                > them, no need to figure out hg or git commands and setting up an
                                > environment where they work.  I hardly ever had a problem with "bitrot",
                                > except for refactorings where nothing would help.
                                >
                                > [...]
                                >
                                > > One problem with the todo list, is that it is not up-to-date until you
                                > > publish runtime files periodically. So sometimes it is hard to tell
                                > > whether you noticed a patch or fixed a bug in a later version. And,
                                > > once a bug goes away from the TODO list, nobody can find it later to
                                > > see that it was an issue but has been fixed (and when).
                                >
                                > Keeping the TODO list up-to-date is less work than updating stuff on
                                > some website.  Whatever issue tracker there is, it's not going to make
                                > MY work more efficient.  And since I'm the bottleneck that's what
                                > matters.
                                >
                                > There was a promise from someone to keep the Issue Tracker up to date,
                                > close fixed issues and so on, but that doesn't really appear to happen.
                                > I don't really have time to do that on top of everything else.

                                The basic idea of having an issue tracker is that *all* bugs, feature requests and pull requests (PR's) go there. Thus you don't need to sync anything since there is nothing to sync with. I.e. switching to issue tracker means shutting down vim-dev mailing list. Otherwise it is not that useful and it either needs to be kept in sync or will contain only partial information.

                                Note that even Google code bug tracker allows using regular emails to respond to the issue.

                                > In an ideal world everything happens wonderfully, we'll have to live
                                > with the real world.
                                >
                                > --
                                > hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                                > 68. Your cat always puts viruses on your dogs homepage
                                >
                                >  /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net   \\\
                                > ///        sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                                > \\\  an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org        ///
                                >  \\\            help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org    ///

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                              • Benjamin Fritz
                                ... Yes, if the developers decide they re worth doing anyway. It would replace the TODO list. ... No. Some projects (TortoiseSVN for example) require that all
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 3, 2013
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                                  On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:45 PM, ZyX ZyX <zyx.vim@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The basic idea of having an issue tracker is that *all* bugs, feature
                                  > requests and pull requests (PR's) go there.

                                  Yes, if the developers decide they're worth doing anyway. It would
                                  replace the TODO list.

                                  > Thus you don't need to sync
                                  > anything since there is nothing to sync with. I.e. switching to issue
                                  > tracker means shutting down vim-dev mailing list.

                                  No. Some projects (TortoiseSVN for example) require that all issues be
                                  vetted on a mailing list before they go in the bug tracker. Entering a
                                  bug in the tracker without agreement on the mailing list means the bug
                                  gets rejected without inspection. Then only relevant information to
                                  resolving or reproducing the bug goes in the issue tracker. Discussion
                                  about how to fix the bug (or whether to fix it) can go on in the
                                  mailing list. Many projects have a mailing list as first contact, and
                                  then the response is not "I'll add it to the TODO list", it is "filed
                                  as bug ID 123456".

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                                • Ben Fritz
                                  ... Back on topic: Bram, this method seems to have a good deal of support, and does not introduce any new options. What do you think? -- -- You received this
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 3, 2013
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                                    On Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:36:54 PM UTC-5, Grant Farnsworth wrote:
                                    > > - ":set nonu nornu" means: I don't want any line numbers;
                                    > > - ":set nu nornu" means: I want to see only absolute numbers;
                                    > > - ":set nonu rnu" means: I want to see only relative numbers;
                                    > > - ":set nu rnu" means: I want to have the best of both worlds.
                                    >
                                    > In my opinion this is the best solution I have heard. It preserves the functionality of what people on both sides of the issue want without adding additional options.
                                    >
                                    > I think it actually makes the numbering options in question a little *more* intuitive: I recall that I was confused when I started using vim because I was not expecting setting nu to also unset rnu and vice versa. I guess I was expecting to see both relative numbers and absolute numbers if both were set to true, even though it is unlikely I would ever want it that way. So to me having both options set to true result in a hybrid numbering scheme that includes the current absolute number and the other numbers as relative makes sense.
                                    >
                                    > I believe this is what Christian's patch does, so count me as a fan. Sorry I didn't speak up in support earlier.

                                    Back on topic: Bram, this method seems to have a good deal of support, and does not introduce any new options. What do you think?

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                                  • Bram Moolenaar
                                    ... Yeah, it appears this time there is nobody against this solution. -- hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict: 78. You find yourself dialing IP
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 4, 2013
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                                      Ben Fritz wrote:

                                      > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:36:54 PM UTC-5, Grant Farnsworth wrote:
                                      > > > - ":set nonu nornu" means: I don't want any line numbers;
                                      > > > - ":set nu nornu" means: I want to see only absolute numbers;
                                      > > > - ":set nonu rnu" means: I want to see only relative numbers;
                                      > > > - ":set nu rnu" means: I want to have the best of both worlds.
                                      > >
                                      > > In my opinion this is the best solution I have heard. It preserves
                                      > > the functionality of what people on both sides of the issue want
                                      > > without adding additional options.
                                      > >
                                      > > I think it actually makes the numbering options in question a little
                                      > > *more* intuitive: I recall that I was confused when I started using
                                      > > vim because I was not expecting setting nu to also unset rnu and
                                      > > vice versa. I guess I was expecting to see both relative numbers
                                      > > and absolute numbers if both were set to true, even though it is
                                      > > unlikely I would ever want it that way. So to me having both options
                                      > > set to true result in a hybrid numbering scheme that includes the
                                      > > current absolute number and the other numbers as relative makes
                                      > > sense.
                                      > >
                                      > > I believe this is what Christian's patch does, so count me as a fan.
                                      > > Sorry I didn't speak up in support earlier.
                                      >
                                      > Back on topic: Bram, this method seems to have a good deal of support,
                                      > and does not introduce any new options. What do you think?

                                      Yeah, it appears this time there is nobody against this solution.

                                      --
                                      hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                                      78. You find yourself dialing IP numbers on the phone.

                                      /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                                      /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                                      \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
                                      \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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                                    • tooth pik
                                      ... it is indeed an intuitive and option minimizing approach, and our BDFL isn t against it -- that matters oh mama -- if I were a practiced patch cooker-upper
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jun 4, 2013
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                                        On Tue, Jun 04, 2013 at 11:18:49AM +0200, Bram Moolenaar wrote:

                                        > Ben Fritz wrote:

                                        > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:36:54 PM UTC-5, Grant Farnsworth wrote:
                                        > > > > - ":set nonu nornu" means: I don't want any line numbers;
                                        > > > > - ":set nu nornu" means: I want to see only absolute numbers;
                                        > > > > - ":set nonu rnu" means: I want to see only relative numbers;
                                        > > > > - ":set nu rnu" means: I want to have the best of both worlds.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > In my opinion this is the best solution I have heard. It preserves
                                        > > > the functionality of what people on both sides of the issue want
                                        > > > without adding additional options.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I think it actually makes the numbering options in question a little
                                        > > > *more* intuitive: I recall that I was confused when I started using
                                        > > > vim because I was not expecting setting nu to also unset rnu and
                                        > > > vice versa. I guess I was expecting to see both relative numbers
                                        > > > and absolute numbers if both were set to true, even though it is
                                        > > > unlikely I would ever want it that way. So to me having both options
                                        > > > set to true result in a hybrid numbering scheme that includes the
                                        > > > current absolute number and the other numbers as relative makes
                                        > > > sense.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I believe this is what Christian's patch does, so count me as a fan.
                                        > > > Sorry I didn't speak up in support earlier.
                                        > >
                                        > > Back on topic: Bram, this method seems to have a good deal of support,
                                        > > and does not introduce any new options. What do you think?

                                        > Yeah, it appears this time there is nobody against this solution.

                                        it is indeed an intuitive and option minimizing approach, and our BDFL
                                        isn't against it -- that matters

                                        oh mama -- if I were a practiced patch cooker-upper I'd be on this --
                                        I know exactly what we need here -- it's all in the thread -- the two
                                        gotchas are (1) I am NOT a practiced patch cooker-upper, and (2) Bram
                                        only accepts patches from ppl who post their real name right here in
                                        front of god and everybody -- eesh -- that is so not me -- Grant? --
                                        Christian?...

                                        we are soo close...

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                                        |_(_)(_)|_| ||_)||<
                                        |

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                                      • Charles Campbell
                                        ... I won t be using the relative numbers option in its current state. Regards, C Campbell -- -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do not
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jun 5, 2013
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                                          Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                                          > [snip] (discussion about relative numbers)
                                          > There is too much discussion about this. I think the current behavior
                                          > is OK and does not have enough disadvantage to justify adding yet
                                          > another option.
                                          I won't be using the relative numbers option in its current state.

                                          Regards,
                                          C Campbell

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                                        • Charles Campbell
                                          ... I plan on trying your patch out soon, probably tonight (can t build vim on my SL6.3 at work properly, although I can build it on a SL6.3 system at home).
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jun 5, 2013
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                                            Christian Brabandt wrote:
                                            > Forwarding to vim-dev
                                            >
                                            > On Mi, 29 Mai 2013, Ben Fritz wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> I like the proposal by "glts" myself:
                                            >>
                                            >>> - ":set nonu nornu" means: I don't want any line numbers;
                                            >>> - ":set nu nornu" means: I want to see only absolute numbers;
                                            >>> - ":set nonu rnu" means: I want to see only relative numbers;
                                            >>> - ":set nu rnu" means: I want to have the best of both worlds.
                                            >> Christian, what is the problem you have with this approach?
                                            > I think, this is confusing. But as I said, I don't have a strong opinion
                                            > on that, so here is a patch to try out:
                                            >
                                            I plan on trying your patch out soon, probably tonight (can't build vim
                                            on my SL6.3 at work properly, although I can build it on a SL6.3 system
                                            at home). Sounds like a good solution to me.

                                            Regards,
                                            C Campbell

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                                          • Ben Fritz
                                            ... It looks like it became patch 7.3.1115. -- -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jun 5, 2013
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                                              On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 10:43:23 AM UTC-5, Charles Campbell wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I plan on trying your patch out soon, probably tonight (can't build vim
                                              >
                                              > on my SL6.3 at work properly, although I can build it on a SL6.3 system
                                              >
                                              > at home). Sounds like a good solution to me.
                                              >

                                              It looks like it became patch 7.3.1115.

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