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Re: Digital Signatures for the official Vim binaries on Windows

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  • Tony Mechelynck
    ... IIUC, Bram s binaries are (outdated but) signed: see either of the MD5 and MD5SUMS files in the ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim/pc/ directory. If youwant an
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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      On 03/01/12 00:11, Philip Taron wrote:
      > Hey all,
      >
      > I noticed for some time now that the official Vim binaries distributed
      > on vim.org for Windows users aren't digitally signed.
      >
      > Is this due to lack of funds, lack of desire, technical limitations,
      > or personal choice?
      >
      > If it is lack of funds, I'd like to donate so this could happen.
      >
      > Philip
      >

      IIUC, Bram's binaries are (outdated but) signed: see either of the MD5
      and MD5SUMS files in the ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim/pc/ directory.

      If youwant an up-to-date Vim for Windows, I recommend Steve Hall's "Vim
      without Cream", http://sourceforge.net/projects/cream/files/Vim/ — that
      one doesn't seem to be signed but is it Steve's or SourceForge's policy?


      Best regards,
      Tony.
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    • Philip Taron
      I m talking about Authenticode signing, where the binary contains signing and repudiation information. There are a couple problems with signing outside the
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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        I'm talking about Authenticode signing, where the binary contains signing and repudiation information. There are a couple problems with signing outside the binary:

        1. The file itself doesn't contain any provenance information
        2. There's no way to verify that the catalog file containing the MD5s is itself signed (or originated from a trusted source)

        This leaves alone the problem of using MD5, which is no longer useful for digital signature verification. Wikipedia's got a good writeup on why... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5#Security


        Here's examples of the differences between signed and unsigned binaries: http://imgur.com/a/7xJK0 (I used a recently downloaded version of Firefox as an example.)

        Cream distro -- well, that one suffers from the same problem. I'd prefer to use the vim.org/Bram build of Vim if I can, since I can be sure it is fully up to date and doesn't have janky personal customizations and patches. 

        Why does it take funds? Because not everyone can be a certificate authority. There is a chain of trust that originates in the set of root certificates installed on everyone's machines, and self-signed certs must be manually added on every machine that wants to trust that author is who he or she claims they are.

        Philip 

        On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:
        On 03/01/12 00:11, Philip Taron wrote:
        Hey all,

        I noticed for some time now that the official Vim binaries distributed
        on vim.org for Windows users aren't digitally signed.

        Is this due to lack of funds, lack of desire, technical limitations,
        or personal choice?

        If it is lack of funds, I'd like to donate so this could happen.

        Philip


        IIUC, Bram's binaries are (outdated but) signed: see either of the MD5 and MD5SUMS files in the ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim/pc/ directory.

        If youwant an up-to-date Vim for Windows, I recommend Steve Hall's "Vim without Cream", http://sourceforge.net/projects/cream/files/Vim/ — that one doesn't seem to be signed but is it Steve's or SourceForge's policy?


        Best regards,
        Tony.
        --
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      • Steve Hall
        ... No policy, but I d be curious to know what the OP believes to be practically accomplished with signed files. Perhaps we re just talking about the official
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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          On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
          > On 03/01/12 00:11, Philip Taron wrote:
          > >
          > > I noticed for some time now that the official Vim binaries
          > > distributed on vim.org for Windows users aren't digitally signed.
          > >
          > > Is this due to lack of funds, lack of desire, technical
          > > limitations, or personal choice?
          >
          > IIUC, Bram's binaries are (outdated but) signed: see either of the
          > MD5 and MD5SUMS files in the ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim/pc/
          > directory.
          >
          > If you want an up-to-date Vim for Windows, I recommend Steve Hall's
          > "Vim without Cream",
          > http://sourceforge.net/projects/cream/files/Vim/ — that one doesn't
          > seem to be signed but is it Steve's or SourceForge's policy?

          No policy, but I'd be curious to know what the OP believes to be
          practically accomplished with signed files. Perhaps we're just talking
          about the official binaries? Or just checksums?


          --
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        • Ben Fritz
          ... Maybe so you can install on Windows without the are you sure you want to run this file from an unverifiable source? . If it were signed I think it would
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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            On Jan 2, 9:41 pm, Steve Hall <digit...@...> wrote:
            >
            > No policy, but I'd be curious to know what the OP believes to be
            > practically accomplished with signed files. Perhaps we're just talking
            > about the official binaries? Or just checksums?
            >

            Maybe so you can install on Windows without the "are you sure you want
            to run this file from an unverifiable source?". If it were signed I
            think it would be a less scary message.

            Personally I don't really care :-)

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          • Steve Hall
            On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 10:28 PM, Philip Taron ... [...] ... This is a Microsoft scare tactic, there s no reason not to trust software
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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              On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 10:28 PM, Philip Taron <philip.taron@...>
              wrote:
              > I'm talking about Authenticode signing, where the binary contains
              > signing and repudiation information.
              [...]
              > My main reason for desiring this is summed up here:
              > http://www.hanselman.com/blog/UsingCodeSigningCertificatesToSignDownloadedMSIsAndBuildReputationWithIE9SmartScreen.aspx
              >
              > Here's examples of the differences between signed and unsigned
              > binaries: http://imgur.com/a/7xJK0 (I used a recently downloaded
              > version of Firefox as an example.)

              This is a Microsoft scare tactic, there's no reason not to trust
              software if you are confident of where you got it. You can eat food
              from state certified restaurants and get sick, or eat at a neighbor's
              house and feel great. (I'd even argue the latter is safer.)

              So I'd love to see the point made using Free Software and not
              requiring license fees or key hosting by whatever corporation. (Unless
              the case is being made that only state sponsored food should be
              allowed.)

              > Cream distro -- well, that one suffers from the same problem. I'd
              > prefer to use the vim.org/Bram build of Vim if I can, since I can be
              > sure it is fully up to date and doesn't have janky personal
              > customizations and patches.

              You obviously don't get the point of Free Software. :)

              > Why does it take funds? Because not everyone can be a certificate
              > authority. There is a chain of trust that originates in the set of
              > root certificates installed on everyone's machines, and self-signed
              > certs must be manually added on every machine that wants to trust
              > that author is who he or she claims they are.

              It only takes funds because the crooks that are trying to scare
              everyone into a fully sponsored "security solutions" need money to
              survive.

              --
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            • Philip Taron
              ... I m only interested in the official binaries. The problem of determining that the sources retrieved from the official master repository are the same
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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                No policy, but I'd be curious to know what the OP believes to be
                practically accomplished with signed files. Perhaps we're just talking
                about the official binaries? Or just checksums?

                I'm only interested in the official binaries. The problem of determining that the sources retrieved from the official master repository are the same sources is something else entirely.

                1. Integrity. I know the binary has not been modified in transit in some form. Catalog signing, like the MD5 file talked about here, also accomplishes this, provided that there is something that signs it, and so on.

                2. Identity. I know that the person claiming to be Bram Moolenaar (or Steve Hall, or whomever) is certified to be that person by some certification authority I already trust.

                3. Authorship. Combining the previous benefits, I know the file is intact, that Bram really is a person/org, and that he really produced this file. 

                4. Provenance. I know that the binary I got from vim.org actually originated with someone who both controlled vim.org and also the private cert for codesigning the binaries there. (This is only if vim.org supports https, which it currently does not.)

                5. UX benefits. I'm restricting this to Windows, since I have no idea of the state of PKI/code signing/etc on Linux or MacOS. On Windows, executables that are digitally signed are presented differently than binaries which are unsigned.

                6. Revokability. If the prior constraints do not hold true (due to a systems failure, vulnerability, or loss of private key, for instance) the certificate can be revoked immediately.

                7. Individual revokability. If a particular binary suffers from a very bad vulnerability, it can explicitly be pulled.

                There's also a couple white-listing benefits, which are completely ancillary.

                8. Anti-malware benefits. Most AV engines (and in particular the one used by MS, for instance in Security Essentials) are able to author whitelist signatures for known good certs.  

                9. Reputation services (like Smart Screen for downloads in IE9). Over time, these can provide actual trust benefits (like http://www.hanselman.com/blog/UsingCodeSigningCertificatesToSignDownloadedMSIsAndBuildReputationWithIE9SmartScreen.aspx illustrates.)

                In reality, my personal motivation is to get rid of that damn unsigned dialog, but from an objective standpoint my motivations don't matter. :)

                Philip

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              • tux.
                No one said vim.org will never be compromised. -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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                  No one said vim.org will never be compromised.

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                • Philip Taron
                  ... Dare I note that both sourceforge.net and vim.org are not offered over https? Without that, there s no way to know whether I m eating at a mockup of my
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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                    This is a Microsoft scare tactic, there's no reason not to trust
                    software if you are confident of where you got it. You can eat food
                    from state certified restaurants and get sick, or eat at a neighbor's
                    house and feel great. (I'd even argue the latter is safer.)

                    Dare I note that both sourceforge.net and vim.org are not offered over https? Without that, there's no way to know whether I'm eating at a mockup of my neighbor's house or at the house itself.
                     
                    So I'd love to see the point made using Free Software and not
                    requiring license fees or key hosting by whatever corporation. (Unless
                    the case is being made that only state sponsored food should be
                    allowed.)

                    > Cream distro -- well, that one suffers from the same problem. I'd
                    > prefer to use the vim.org/Bram build of Vim if I can, since I can be
                    > sure it is fully up to date and doesn't have janky personal
                    > customizations and patches.

                    You obviously don't get the point of Free Software. :)

                    Hey, enough with the hate, suffixed with smiley faces as it is. Anything prefaced with the phase "I prefer" surely is meant only in a personal manner. More power to you for creating and maintaining Cream. It's not _my_ preference.
                     
                    > Why does it take funds? Because not everyone can be a certificate
                    > authority. There is a chain of trust that originates in the set of
                    > root certificates installed on everyone's machines, and self-signed
                    > certs must be manually added on every machine that wants to trust
                    > that author is who he or she claims they are.

                    It only takes funds because the crooks that are trying to scare
                    everyone into a fully sponsored "security solutions" need money to
                    survive.

                    Root of trust, distribution of keys, revocation, and the other associated issues with a global PKI are real problems. In a free software context, see the hack on kernel.org and GNU savannah...


                    Digitally signing the binaries wouldn't have eliminated either of these problems, but would have made cleaning up after them quite a bit easier.

                    Philip 

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                  • Philip Taron
                    ... On consideration, I apologize for the janky characterization. It was uncalled for. Philip -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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                      > Cream distro -- well, that one suffers from the same problem. I'd
                      > prefer to use the vim.org/Bram build of Vim if I can, since I can be
                      > sure it is fully up to date and doesn't have janky personal
                      > customizations and patches.

                      You obviously don't get the point of Free Software. :)

                      Hey, enough with the hate, suffixed with smiley faces as it is. Anything prefaced with the phase "I prefer" surely is meant only in a personal manner. More power to you for creating and maintaining Cream. It's not _my_ preference.

                      On consideration, I apologize for the "janky" characterization. It was uncalled for.

                      Philip

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                    • Ernie Rael
                      ... When I log into sf.net I start getting an https URL. -ernie -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 2, 2012
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                        On 1/2/2012 8:43 PM, Philip Taron wrote:


                        Dare I note that both sourceforge.net and vim.org are not offered over https? Without that, there's no way to know whether I'm eating at a mockup of my neighbor's house or at the house itself.
                         

                        When I log into sf.net I start getting an https URL.

                        -ernie

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                      • Bram Moolenaar
                        ... It s a lot of hassle to get this certification, costs quite a bit of money (several thousand dollars), and only gives a little bit of protection. The
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 4, 2012
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                          Philip Taron wrote:

                          > I noticed for some time now that the official Vim binaries distributed
                          > on vim.org for Windows users aren't digitally signed.
                          >
                          > Is this due to lack of funds, lack of desire, technical limitations,
                          > or personal choice?
                          >
                          > If it is lack of funds, I'd like to donate so this could happen.

                          It's a lot of hassle to get this certification, costs quite a bit of
                          money (several thousand dollars), and only gives a little bit of
                          protection. The obvious way around it is to just replace the signed
                          binary with a not signed binary, hardly anyone would notice.

                          In practice messing with the files has never happened and if it did it
                          would most likely be detected and fixed quickly.

                          Trojan horses are a big problem, but the signature is a very weak
                          protection against them.

                          --
                          If cars evolved at the same rate as computers have, they'd cost five euro,
                          run for a year on a couple of liters of petrol, and explode once a day.

                          /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                          /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                          \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
                          \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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                        • Philip Taron
                          ... I ll drop the topic. Thanks for providing the current consensus opinion. Philip -- You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. Do not top-post!
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 4, 2012
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                            It's a lot of hassle to get this certification, costs quite a bit of
                            money (several thousand dollars), and only gives a little bit of
                            protection.  The obvious way around it is to just replace the signed
                            binary with a not signed binary, hardly anyone would notice.

                            In practice messing with the files has never happened and if it did it
                            would most likely be detected and fixed quickly.

                            Trojan horses are a big problem, but the signature is a very weak
                            protection against them.

                            I'll drop the topic. Thanks for providing the current consensus opinion.

                            Philip

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