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Suggest a Gvim 7.3 new look

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  • nico io
    Hi, I am currently using Gvim 7.2 rebuild with this new toolbar. I think : 1. Gvim has to improve its visual interface to seduce new users. 1.a I suggest the
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 8, 2010
      Hi,


      I am currently using Gvim 7.2 rebuild with this new toolbar.

      I think :

      1. Gvim has to improve its visual interface to seduce new users.

      1.a I suggest the toolbar in 48px size border mixed with the existing menu => Gvim takes a new look AND you can attach your new vimscript plugin to a visual icon

      1.b In the futur, to enable a slide feature to this toolbar in order to permit to add dynamically more icons than the toolbar's width permit it.

      2. Think that several existing Icon of current gvim 7.2 toolbar are obsolete meanwhile....
      .....meanwhile today everybody use usb key..... so I think we have to develop some vimscript around this usb key.

      2. a. Some script to store or retrieve data like vimfiles into/to usb key (see usb key icon), I have done a vimscript

      2. b. To develop many features around managing _vimrc and vimfiles to usb key in order to be able to work everywhere with gvim.


      So, I can work for the community to add this new toolbar to Gvim 7.3 release if enough people agree with my thoughts.

      Thank you to see my jpg joined.
      Epanda.
      French. Gvim Evangelist




      Vous voulez protéger votre vie privée ? La solution avec Internet Explorer 8

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    • Bram Moolenaar
      ... Well, it looks nice, but it takes a lot of space. Vim users tend to be very practical. Quite a few people disable the toolbar. Perhaps we can use this
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 8, 2010
        Nico Io wrote:

        > I am currently using Gvim 7.2 rebuild with this new toolbar.
        > I think :
        > 1. Gvim has to improve its visual interface to seduce new users.
        > 1.a I suggest the toolbar in 48px size border mixed with the
        > existing menu => Gvim takes a new look AND you can attach your
        > new vimscript plugin to a visual icon
        > 1.b In the futur, to enable a slide feature to this toolbar in
        > order to permit to add dynamically more icons than the toolbar's
        > width permit it.
        > 2. Think that several existing Icon of current gvim 7.2 toolbar are
        > obsolete meanwhile.........meanwhile today everybody use usb key.....
        > so I think we have to develop some vimscript around this usb key.
        > 2. a. Some script to store or retrieve data like vimfiles
        > into/to usb key (see usb key icon), I have done a vimscript
        > 2. b. To develop many features around managing _vimrc and
        > vimfiles to usb key in order to be able to work everywhere with
        > gvim.
        >
        > So, I can work for the community to add this new toolbar to Gvim 7.3
        > release if enough people agree with my thoughts.
        > Thank you to see my jpg joined.Epanda.French. Gvim Evangelist

        Well, it looks nice, but it takes a lot of space. Vim users tend to be
        very practical. Quite a few people disable the toolbar.

        Perhaps we can use this for Easy Vim (evim)?

        "usb key". Do you mean USB stick? Isn't that just another place to
        store files?

        If you mean you would like to store your Vim configuration in a way you
        can move it to other computers, that's indeed useful. But tricky to
        make work. Probably requires the user to put their Vim files in
        specific places.


        --
        The CIA drives around in cars with the "Intel inside" logo.

        /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
        /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
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      • Tony Mechelynck
        ... Hi. I don t know why you re suddenly nico io after having been epanda — and neither name sounds authentic — but I don t mind. I think that your
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 8, 2010
          On 08/06/10 21:08, nico io wrote:
          > Hi,

          Hi. I don't know why you're suddenly "nico io" after having been
          "epanda" — and neither name sounds authentic — but I don't mind. I think
          that your proposal is serious and, as a sign of respect from someone who
          doesn't share your opinions in this domain, I have taken the time to
          write a point-by-point rebuttal. Don't take it badly: I think there is
          room for argument, especially if other people join the debate.

          >
          >
          > I am currently using Gvim 7.2 rebuild with this new toolbar.
          >
          > I think :
          >
          > 1. Gvim has to improve its visual interface to seduce new users.

          I don't think Vim is the kind of software which "seduces" new users by
          its pretty toolbars. What keeps Vim users faithful is sheer editing
          power (but it takes time for them to realize just how powerful Vim can be).

          I don't know what kinds of toolbars there are in XEmacs, but they could
          be as sexy as you like, they won't make me switch editors. In general I
          prefer no-nonsense looks with everything where I need it, to flashy
          stuff where half of what I need is missing or tucked away. Happily the
          gvim toolbar, in its present size, doesn't bother me too much so I keep
          it displayed even though I practically never use it, but if it played
          too much the game of the frog trying to be a bull, I would quickly add
          ":set go-=T" to my vimrc.

          >
          > 1.a I suggest the toolbar in 48px size border mixed with the existing
          > menu => Gvim takes a new look AND you can attach your new vimscript
          > plugin to a visual icon

          Like Bram, I think that a 48px high toolbar takes up a lot of space.
          IMHO 32px is a maximum, it might perhaps be possible to make do with 24.
          This said, if this new toolbar can be installed by the user _instead_ of
          the "normal" one without recompiling gvim, by adding some statement in
          the vimrc, then why not? But not as default.

          >
          > 1.b In the futur, to enable a slide feature to this toolbar in order to
          > permit to add dynamically more icons than the toolbar's width permit it.

          The only reason you feel that this is necessary is because you've
          installed huge buttons. Yours take up about 80% of the width, mine about
          66 or 70%, and it looks to me like there is room for many more buttons —
          if desired, which is not obvious.

          >
          > 2. Think that several existing Icon of current gvim 7.2 toolbar are
          > obsolete meanwhile....
          > .....meanwhile today everybody use usb key..... so I think we have to
          > develop some vimscript around this usb key.

          To Vim a USB key is just a place to store files, it is no different from
          a disk: in today's Unix language it's "a filesystem", in the language I
          used 40 years ago on Honeywell mainframes it's "a mass-storage device".

          Also, if USB drives are so hip, why are you displaying (obsolete)
          diskettes as the icons for your "Save" and "Save all" buttons? Probably
          because anyone will recognize that they are disks, which is not
          necessarily the case with a CD icon...

          >
          > 2. a. Some script to store or retrieve data like vimfiles into/to usb
          > key (see usb key icon), I have done a vimscript

          No need for a script. Retrieve with ":e foobar.baz", store with ":w" or
          ":saveas bazbar.foo". Include paths as needed, or :cd to the USB drive
          beforehand.

          >
          > 2. b. To develop many features around managing _vimrc and vimfiles to
          > usb key in order to be able to work everywhere with gvim.

          I think there is a project about that somewhere, to be able to use "the
          same" Vim setup on several computers, but it isn't obvious to make it
          work. You couldn't rasily take advantage of 64-bit processors if you
          have to keep compatibility with another computer's 32-bit one. And try
          as you will, a single executable won't work on any two of Windows, Linux
          and Mac, even if all three have the same Intel processor. Also,
          self-installers (as used on Windows) and .dmg "disk image" archives (as
          used on the Mac) have their advantages.

          >
          >
          > So, I can work for the community to add this new toolbar to Gvim 7.3
          > release if enough people agree with my thoughts.

          Even though there are already a lot of improvements in gvim 7.3a
          compared to 7.2, it is still a minor release. There were much more
          important changes between 6 and 7, and yet (with the exception of a tab
          bar) the look of gvim didn't change at all. I think that if we want a
          radical change of gvim's look and feel, it would be for Vim 8 at the
          earliest. Unless, as I said, the present look can be kept as default,
          with the possibility to change it to yours by some command in the vimrc,
          or maybe in a colorscheme.

          >
          > Thank you to see my jpg joined.
          > Epanda.
          > French. Gvim Evangelist

          Finally, IIUC, builds of gvim for various OSes borrow their toolbar
          buttons from the corresponding GUI themes. My toolbar buttons come from
          Gnome, not from Bram (or rather, Bram wrote the source so that gvim for
          GTK2/Gnome2 GUI borrows its buttons from Gnome): for instance, the
          button "Choose a Vim script to run" for the "Toolbar.RunScript" menu is
          a smaller but exact copy of the "cogwheels" button on my Gnome taskbar,
          whose tooltip says "Run an application by typing a command or choosing
          from a list".


          Best regards,
          Tony.
          --
          -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed
          -rwxr-xr-t 4 root 131720 Jan 1 1970 /usr/ucb/vi
          -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990 /usr/bin/emacs

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        • Thilo Six
          Bram Moolenaar wrote the following on 08.06.2010 23:30 ... Maybe have a look at this: http://portableapps.com/apps/development/gvim_portable -- bye
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 9, 2010
            Bram Moolenaar wrote the following on 08.06.2010 23:30

            <snip>

            > "usb key". Do you mean USB stick? Isn't that just another place to
            > store files?
            >
            > If you mean you would like to store your Vim configuration in a way you
            > can move it to other computers, that's indeed useful. But tricky to
            > make work. Probably requires the user to put their Vim files in
            > specific places.

            Maybe have a look at this:
            http://portableapps.com/apps/development/gvim_portable


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            bye Thilo

            4096R/0xC70B1A8F
            721B 1BA0 095C 1ABA 3FC6 7C18 89A4 A2A0 C70B 1A8F


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          • char101
            ... Hi, Speaking about improving gvim interface (at least for gvim on windows), I have patched gui_w32.c to... - using IMAGELIST to store the icons, thus
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 9, 2010
              On Jun 9, 2:08 am, nico io <callingel...@...> wrote:
              > Hi,
              >
              > I am currently using Gvim 7.2 rebuild with this new toolbar.
              > I think :
              > 1. Gvim has to improve its visual interface to seduce new users.

              Hi,

              Speaking about improving gvim interface (at least for gvim on
              windows), I have patched gui_w32.c to...
              - using IMAGELIST to store the icons, thus enabling the user of 32-bit
              transparent bmp for toolbar icons (on XP upwards only)
              and showing the bevel effect on toolbar icons on mouse over (hot-
              tracking). This would make it easier to use existing icon theme that
              usually comes in PNG. Converting PNG to 8 colors BMP usually results
              in bad looking icons, but converting to 32 bit BMP will retains the
              icon quality.
              - draw the toolbar background as rebar (the gradient on explorer
              toolbar on default xp theme)

              Changed files (synchronized with latest vim73 branch):
              http://sites.google.com/site/chardocs/gui_w32.c
              http://sites.google.com/site/chardocs/gui.h

              How it looks: http://charupload.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/vim.png
              (using fugue icons http://www.pinvoke.com/)

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            • Tony Mechelynck
              ... Hm, just for the record, here is what gvim looks like under GTK2, with the built-in icon set: http://users.skynet.be/antoine.mechelynck/vim/gvim.png I
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 9, 2010
                On 09/06/10 11:28, char101 wrote:
                > On Jun 9, 2:08 am, nico io<callingel...@...> wrote:
                >> Hi,
                >>
                >> I am currently using Gvim 7.2 rebuild with this new toolbar.
                >> I think :
                >> 1. Gvim has to improve its visual interface to seduce new users.
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > Speaking about improving gvim interface (at least for gvim on
                > windows), I have patched gui_w32.c to...
                > - using IMAGELIST to store the icons, thus enabling the user of 32-bit
                > transparent bmp for toolbar icons (on XP upwards only)
                > and showing the bevel effect on toolbar icons on mouse over (hot-
                > tracking). This would make it easier to use existing icon theme that
                > usually comes in PNG. Converting PNG to 8 colors BMP usually results
                > in bad looking icons, but converting to 32 bit BMP will retains the
                > icon quality.
                > - draw the toolbar background as rebar (the gradient on explorer
                > toolbar on default xp theme)
                >
                > Changed files (synchronized with latest vim73 branch):
                > http://sites.google.com/site/chardocs/gui_w32.c
                > http://sites.google.com/site/chardocs/gui.h
                >
                > How it looks: http://charupload.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/vim.png
                > (using fugue icons http://www.pinvoke.com/)
                >

                Hm, just for the record, here is what gvim looks like under GTK2, with
                the built-in icon set:
                http://users.skynet.be/antoine.mechelynck/vim/gvim.png

                I guess these "beautiful" icons are part of the reason why I feel no
                pressing urge to change them.

                The taskbar at bottom is of course not part of Vim, but compare the
                "gears" icon at bottom left with the one on the Vim toolbar, above and
                slightly to the left of the hjkl diamond in the help.


                Best regards,
                Tony.
                --
                "Murphy's Law, that brash proletarian restatement of Godel's Theorem ..."
                -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

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              • Steve Hall
                From: Tony Mechelynck, Wed, June 09, 2010 10:23 am ... [...] ... I ll chime in with agreement, these defaults came out Tango: http://tango.freedesktop.org/
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 9, 2010
                  From: Tony Mechelynck, Wed, June 09, 2010 10:23 am
                  > On 09/06/10 11:28, char101 wrote:
                  > > On Jun 9, 2:08 am, nico io wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I am currently using Gvim 7.2 rebuild with this new toolbar.
                  [...]
                  > Hm, just for the record, here is what gvim looks like under GTK2, with
                  > the built-in icon set:
                  > http://users.skynet.be/antoine.mechelynck/vim/gvim.png
                  >
                  > I guess these "beautiful" icons are part of the reason why I feel no
                  > pressing urge to change them.

                  I'll chime in with agreement, these defaults came out Tango:

                  http://tango.freedesktop.org/

                  which in my mind gets it right for clarity AND avoiding the glossy
                  Apple OS X look which went out of style about five years ago. (Now
                  avoided by even Apple themselves.)

                  --
                  Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]


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                • char101
                  On Jun 9, 9:23 pm, Tony Mechelynck ... Hi, When I use linux, I also think that gvim interface is just as good as other editor,
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 9, 2010
                    On Jun 9, 9:23 pm, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechely...@...>
                    wrote:
                    > Hm, just for the record, here is what gvim looks like under GTK2, with
                    > the built-in icon set:http://users.skynet.be/antoine.mechelynck/vim/gvim.png
                    >
                    > I guess these "beautiful" icons are part of the reason why I feel no
                    > pressing urge to change them.

                    Hi,

                    When I use linux, I also think that gvim interface is just as good as
                    other editor, e.g. gedit. It's gvim on windows which looks kind of
                    old.

                    I see that gvim picks the right 24x24 pixels icon while the menu
                    button use the 32x32 variant, and tango provides a slightly different
                    icons for each size. Fortunately for gvim on linux which is
                    implemented using gtk, that gtk provides such service of picking theme
                    icon.

                    Tango icons are nice, but still they are 24 bit tansparent png's which
                    cannot be used on gvim on windows without modification to gvim
                    handling of toolbar icons.

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                  • char101
                    ... Gvim on windows is already portable. The key is to add to vimrc: let $HOME=$VIM I layout gvim files like this vim/ - runtime/ - vimfiles/ - gvim.exe -
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 9, 2010
                      On Jun 9, 3:09 pm, Thilo Six <T....@...> wrote:
                      > Maybe have a look at this:http://portableapps.com/apps/development/gvim_portable

                      Gvim on windows is already portable. The key is to add to vimrc:

                      let $HOME=$VIM

                      I layout gvim files like this

                      vim/
                      - runtime/
                      - vimfiles/
                      - gvim.exe
                      - vimrc
                      - gvimrc
                      - _viminfo

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                    • epanda
                      I really thanks char101 to share my opinion that on windows Gvim which looks kind of old. I forgot to mention this detail = I am currently using gvim on Win32
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 9, 2010
                        I really thanks char101 to share my opinion that on windows Gvim which
                        looks kind of old.
                        I forgot to mention this detail => I am currently using gvim on Win32
                        OS, I have worked on Unix Solaris during 8 years too.

                        I don't think we always have to separate powerful inner features of
                        vim (that I love) to its look like suggested Tom.

                        In the period we live in, with High Definition Wide Screen, I maintain
                        that 32 or 48px give a really good look to gvim'toolbar and
                        the idea of sliding those wide icons is both not innocent and may will
                        be the little detail that will convince some more young people to use
                        gvim in the futur.

                        About usb stick(sorry Bram), it was just a proposal suggestion to
                        think in deep and develop. I have my own vimscript that permit me to
                        use gvim with same configuration on a lot of computers for my job.

                        So I hope that I convince you that beautiful is not the opposite of
                        powerful. And those words have no link with easyvim or vim mode use.

                        Thank you char101, I will use you gui_w32 modified.
                        Epanda (means little animal on email world)

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                      • Kazuo Teramoto
                        On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:53 PM, epanda wrote: If Tony dont alerted me, I though this is another one not related to nico io . I this
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 10, 2010
                          On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:53 PM, epanda <callingelvis@...> wrote:
                          If Tony dont alerted me, I though this is another one not related to
                          'nico io'. I this list, usually people use real names. Or stick to
                          only one nick.

                          >
                          > In the period we live in, with High Definition Wide Screen, I maintain
                          > that 32 or 48px give a really good look to gvim'toolbar and
                          > the idea of sliding those wide icons is both not innocent and may will
                          > be the little detail that will convince some more young people to use
                          > gvim in the futur.

                          I dont think that vim is made to attract 'young people'. Its mean to
                          attract someone that need a powerful editor, not only developers but
                          people that edit plain text files in general. That is a different
                          niche.

                          For 'young people' exist others editor more suitable to be "good looking".

                          I'm really vote down the idea of "seduce new users" via attractive
                          look, vim attract user by the mean of *text editor* features, let me
                          repeat it: *text editor*. When people try to convince you to use vim,
                          they dont talk about toolbar the talk about the über cool features it
                          has.

                          And about icons, I prefer small icons and small fonts, the small that
                          they can be. 16px is a good size for me, and I have a "High Definition
                          Wide Screen". For me big icons (>22px) are ugly.

                          > So I hope that I convince you that beautiful is not the opposite of
                          > powerful.   And those words have no link with easyvim or vim mode use.
                          >

                          No, its not. I share this opinion too. But, vim and a toolbar dont
                          really fit. Vim is mean to used with keyboard if you are clicking on
                          icons you are doing it wrong...

                          If you want a beautiful vim, you need to look for color schemes and
                          things like this.

                          The problem with you idea it that you targeted a wrong audience (i.e.
                          the vim users).

                          Unix users usually are more minimalist, and vim users usually are more
                          unix like users.

                          "Small is beautiful." Mike Gancarz

                          Regards,
                          Kazuo

                          --
                          «Dans la vie, rien n'est à craindre, tout est à comprendre»
                          Marie Sklodowska Curie.

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                        • Luis Carvalho
                          ... I think we re mixing two points that are not necessarily exclusive: a nice interface and powerful features. Aesthetics can be relevant even for the
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 10, 2010
                            <snip>
                            > I dont think that vim is made to attract 'young people'. Its mean to
                            > attract someone that need a powerful editor, not only developers but
                            > people that edit plain text files in general. That is a different
                            > niche.
                            >
                            > For 'young people' exist others editor more suitable to be "good looking".
                            >
                            > I'm really vote down the idea of "seduce new users" via attractive
                            > look, vim attract user by the mean of *text editor* features, let me
                            > repeat it: *text editor*. When people try to convince you to use vim,
                            > they dont talk about toolbar the talk about the über cool features it
                            > has.
                            >
                            > And about icons, I prefer small icons and small fonts, the small that
                            > they can be. 16px is a good size for me, and I have a "High Definition
                            > Wide Screen". For me big icons (>22px) are ugly.

                            I think we're mixing two points that are not necessarily exclusive: a nice
                            interface and powerful features. Aesthetics can be relevant even for the power
                            user; it's not a matter of being young or old, newbie or seasoned.

                            Without going to extremes -- no toolbar vs 48px icons -- how can we have a
                            more uniform interface? Gnome/GTK2 users seem to be pretty happy (I'm one of
                            them, btw). Why can't we also please Windows users?

                            > > So I hope that I convince you that beautiful is not the opposite of
                            > > powerful.   And those words have no link with easyvim or vim mode use.
                            > >
                            >
                            > No, its not. I share this opinion too. But, vim and a toolbar dont
                            > really fit. Vim is mean to used with keyboard if you are clicking on
                            > icons you are doing it wrong...

                            Of course, if you can always :set go-=T, then the toolbar is irrelevant for
                            you. The problem is not having a toolbar users don't like, but having a
                            toolbar that users enjoy.

                            > If you want a beautiful vim, you need to look for color schemes and
                            > things like this.

                            As well.

                            > The problem with you idea it that you targeted a wrong audience (i.e.
                            > the vim users).

                            I think he targeted a narrow audience that shared his taste on interface
                            (large icons). It doesn't mean he has no point. Some other users in this list
                            agreed that the Windows toolbar feels old.

                            > Unix users usually are more minimalist, and vim users usually are more
                            > unix like users.

                            Sure, and these users are already covered, right? You can always use the
                            terminal... That's not the point.

                            > "Small is beautiful." Mike Gancarz

                            "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler", Einstein's
                            razor.

                            Again, I think we should look for more "uniformity" in the interface, which
                            would mean a more aesthetic, modern toolbar for the Windows version, similar
                            to what we already have in the Gnome/GTK2 interface. Being attractive and/or
                            appealing is a consequence.

                            Cheers,
                            Luis

                            --
                            Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
                            -- Pablo Picasso

                            --
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                          • Linda W
                            ... I think having an option for a larger border would be great. If we could have options for smaller/larger icons -- would a great feature. Not everyone
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 10, 2010
                              nico io wrote:
                              > Hi,
                              >
                              >
                              > I am currently using Gvim 7.2 rebuild with this new toolbar.
                              >
                              > I think :
                              >
                              > 1. Gvim has to improve its visual interface to seduce new users.
                              >
                              > 1.a I suggest the toolbar in 48px size border mixed with the existing
                              > menu => Gvim takes a new look AND you can attach your new vimscript
                              > plugin to a visual icon
                              ----
                              I think having an option for a larger border would be great. If we could have
                              options for smaller/larger icons -- would a great feature. Not everyone likes
                              small icons. Though long-time users often turn them off entirely,
                              I can easily see it appealing to different segments of users.

                              If the icons are that large, would it be logical to default to a larger
                              initial font as well to keep them aesthetically proportional?

                              I agree -- having a new look that a Windows installer might offer or default
                              to for new users would offer a fresh look. We should make sure it doesn't
                              interfere with existing usrs (unless they want it), but fresh looks are often
                              used in rest of world to freshen up a product.

                              Linda

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                            • Kazuo Teramoto
                              ... [snip] ... Yes this is the point. So its ok to implement a email client/nttp reader/web browser/bittorrent client in vim if you can disable then with :set
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 10, 2010
                                On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Luis Carvalho <lexcarvalho@...> wrote:
                                > Of course, if you can always :set go-=T, then the toolbar is irrelevant for
                                > you. The problem is not having a toolbar users don't like, but having a
                                > toolbar that users enjoy.
                                [snip]
                                >
                                >> Unix users usually are more minimalist, and vim users usually are more
                                >> unix like users.
                                >
                                > Sure, and these users are already covered, right? You can always use the
                                > terminal... That's not the point.
                                >

                                Yes this is the point.

                                So its ok to implement a email client/nttp reader/web
                                browser/bittorrent client in vim if you can disable then with :set
                                vim-=emacs? No its not, its plain wrong.

                                Unix philosophy is not about software usage, is about software
                                *development*. Is about decision you made on writing them. You can't
                                go and implement all the cool features that exist for the sake of
                                implementing it.

                                So, no the unix user are not covered, because for they what matter is
                                software development. Dont matter if this can be disabled.

                                I always used lftp with joy, but when they implemented bittorrent
                                support, I stopped using it. Why? Because its wrong for a ftp client
                                support a protocol completely divergent. And I know of lot of ppl that
                                stopped too, and its is, in my opinion, the best ftp client.

                                Unix users are not blind to this matters like windows users (all this,
                                is about "generic" users, not about all), for they how software are
                                implemented is part of how good is a software. And vim have a lot of
                                unix heritage.

                                Regards,
                                Kazuo

                                --
                                «Dans la vie, rien n'est à craindre, tout est à comprendre»
                                Marie Sklodowska Curie.

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                              • Luis Carvalho
                                ... But the toolbar is already implemented. We re not discussing adding a new feature, but changing an existing one, so you lost me with the whole unix
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 10, 2010
                                  > >> Unix users usually are more minimalist, and vim users usually are more
                                  > >> unix like users.
                                  > >
                                  > > Sure, and these users are already covered, right? You can always use the
                                  > > terminal... That's not the point.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Yes this is the point.
                                  >
                                  > So its ok to implement a email client/nttp reader/web
                                  > browser/bittorrent client in vim if you can disable then with :set
                                  > vim-=emacs? No its not, its plain wrong.
                                  <snip>

                                  But the toolbar is already implemented. We're not discussing adding a new
                                  feature, but changing an existing one, so you lost me with the whole unix
                                  apologia.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Luis

                                  --
                                  Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
                                  -- Pablo Picasso

                                  --
                                  Luis Carvalho (Kozure)
                                  lua -e 'print((("lexcarvalho@..."):gsub("(%u+%.)","")))'

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                                • epanda
                                  I am sorry to suggest to you the idea of improving toolbar. I didn t think that it cause so many discussions. In order to finish this thread, I just want to
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 11, 2010
                                    I am sorry to suggest to you the idea of improving toolbar.

                                    I didn't think that it cause so many discussions.


                                    In order to finish this thread, I just want to say :

                                    1- I know emacs and opposed to its philosophy, in french I maybe be
                                    call it "une usine à gaz" (~gas plant ~complicated thing that do
                                    breakfeast, refueling and others things that we don't need).

                                    2- I love gvim's powerfull features and I am using :exec any commands
                                    since 8 years so I KNOW

                                    3- I would say next generation instead of young people so I'am sorry
                                    for my poor english... I think it is important to make next generation
                                    to envy using gvim.

                                    4- I am pretty sure that in the futur we will no have problem with
                                    screen's size.... so it's not a problem of 48 or 32px icon's size (we
                                    can add a parameter to satisfy this user preference)
                                    => I think the real problem is a technical one : how sliding this
                                    toolbar if we want to add N icons (maybe 20 or 50) dynamically with
                                    this configuration
                                    amenu icon=myicon.bmp ToolBar.SourceMyVimFiles :so $HOME/_vimrc<CR>

                                    5-The target audience : I think I am not missing about the audience
                                    but I think I add or enhance a new feature to those who
                                    would like to attach their manual commands/vimscript that we are all
                                    doing at least once but like Bram say in its video :
                                    Gain time : do things one time as possible.

                                    That's my philosophy : doing some manual tasks with :youtask and then,
                                    when it is ok, attach it to an icon like or a mapped key.

                                    I regret that suggesting a thing that I considered as a minimal
                                    feature (not a "usine à gaz") in order to enhance gvim use,
                                    I regret that it has induced so many conflicting opinions.

                                    I just notice that women as Linda are not opposed to that but have a
                                    positive criticism.

                                    nb: excuse me for my poor english, I am a french user of gvim

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                                  • Marc Weber
                                    I ve switched off toolbars for over two years - I never used them. They take away some of the screen. That s my preference. Anyway looking at this discussion I
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 11, 2010
                                      I've switched off toolbars for over two years - I never used them.
                                      They take away some of the screen. That's my preference.

                                      Anyway looking at this discussion I wonder whether we want customizable
                                      "themes" - the way you can customize Firefox and many other
                                      applications?

                                      Maybe there should be a
                                      :seticonstetdir=....

                                      Then you can put iconthemes on www.vim.org and distribute them a
                                      splugins.

                                      Marc Weber

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                                    • Erik Falor
                                      ... Wow, lftp has support for bittorrent? I may never use bittorrent-curses again! I understand where you are coming from, Kazuo, but I must say that I m in
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jun 11, 2010
                                        On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 05:24:01PM -0300, Kazuo Teramoto wrote:
                                        > I always used lftp with joy, but when they implemented bittorrent
                                        > support, I stopped using it. Why? Because its wrong for a ftp client
                                        > support a protocol completely divergent. And I know of lot of ppl that
                                        > stopped too, and its is, in my opinion, the best ftp client.

                                        Wow, lftp has support for bittorrent? I may never use
                                        bittorrent-curses again!

                                        I understand where you are coming from, Kazuo, but I must say that I'm
                                        in the "aesthetics and functionality aren't mutually exclusive" camp.

                                        While I would not use the toolbar in Gvim at any size, I don't think
                                        it hurts to make it at least look nice. If fashion dictates that Gvim
                                        needs a toolbar which is 48px tall, then I say that we should put
                                        together a knock-your-socks-off toolbar. The kind of users who feel
                                        that is a waste of space surely have already discovered :set go-=T.

                                        That said, I feel that educating potential users about Vim's huge
                                        productivity features would be a better use of effort. No matter how
                                        nice the toolbar looks, that alone won't keep a user hooked through
                                        the "insert mode is weird" phase of the learning curve. But if more
                                        people knew about text objects, the time/energy savings could make
                                        Keanu Reeves happy again.

                                        --
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                                        Registered Linux User #445632 http://counter.li.org
                                      • Bram Moolenaar
                                        ... I looked at that page but don t see what is different from normal Vim. I m not going to spend time digging it up. Windows only sounds bad. --
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jun 11, 2010
                                          Thilo Six wrote:

                                          > Bram Moolenaar wrote the following on 08.06.2010 23:30
                                          >
                                          > seem my first mail didn´t made it through. resending...
                                          >
                                          > <snip>
                                          >
                                          > > "usb key". Do you mean USB stick? Isn't that just another place to
                                          > > store files?
                                          > >
                                          > > If you mean you would like to store your Vim configuration in a way you
                                          > > can move it to other computers, that's indeed useful. But tricky to
                                          > > make work. Probably requires the user to put their Vim files in
                                          > > specific places.
                                          >
                                          > Maybe have a look at this:
                                          > http://portableapps.com/apps/development/gvim_portable
                                          >
                                          > It is an portable version of vim 7.2 (including runtime). Just extract it to
                                          > any directory and run it from there (obviously windows only).

                                          I looked at that page but don't see what is different from normal Vim.
                                          I'm not going to spend time digging it up.
                                          "Windows only" sounds bad.

                                          --
                                          hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                                          187. You promise yourself that you'll only stay online for another
                                          15 minutes...at least once every hour.

                                          /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                                          /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                                          \\\ download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
                                          \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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                                        • Mikolaj Machowski
                                          ... Portable means you can start it from pendrive or whatever without need to use registry. There is whole industry on Windows around that concept :) m. -- You
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jun 12, 2010
                                            On Saturday 12 June 2010 06:43:54 Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > It is an portable version of vim 7.2 (including runtime). Just extract it
                                            > > to any directory and run it from there (obviously windows only).
                                            >
                                            > I looked at that page but don't see what is different from normal Vim.
                                            > I'm not going to spend time digging it up.
                                            > "Windows only" sounds bad.

                                            Portable means you can start it from pendrive or whatever without need to use
                                            registry. There is whole industry on Windows around that concept :)

                                            m.

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                                          • Tony Mechelynck
                                            ... I ve just be rereading this old thread prior to archiving it, and after thinking it over: I m on the side of choice. Aesthetics and functionality are
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jul 6 3:50 PM
                                              On 10/06/10 19:23, Linda W wrote:
                                              > nico io wrote:
                                              >> Hi,
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> I am currently using Gvim 7.2 rebuild with this new toolbar.
                                              >>
                                              >> I think :
                                              >>
                                              >> 1. Gvim has to improve its visual interface to seduce new users.
                                              >>
                                              >> 1.a I suggest the toolbar in 48px size border mixed with the existing
                                              >> menu => Gvim takes a new look AND you can attach your new vimscript
                                              >> plugin to a visual icon
                                              > ----
                                              > I think having an option for a larger border would be great. If we could
                                              > have
                                              > options for smaller/larger icons -- would a great feature. Not everyone
                                              > likes
                                              > small icons. Though long-time users often turn them off entirely,
                                              > I can easily see it appealing to different segments of users.
                                              >
                                              > If the icons are that large, would it be logical to default to a larger
                                              > initial font as well to keep them aesthetically proportional?
                                              >
                                              > I agree -- having a new look that a Windows installer might offer or
                                              > default
                                              > to for new users would offer a fresh look. We should make sure it doesn't
                                              > interfere with existing usrs (unless they want it), but fresh looks are
                                              > often
                                              > used in rest of world to freshen up a product.
                                              >
                                              > Linda
                                              >

                                              I've just be rereading this old thread prior to archiving it, and after
                                              thinking it over: I'm on the side of choice.

                                              Aesthetics and functionality are certainly not incompatible, but the
                                              former has one difficulty: beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

                                              I'm perfectly happy with my gvim and its GNOME2 toolbar, whose buttons
                                              are -- what? 24px on a side maybe. I don't use them much, but I leave
                                              them there: Vim is, among others, about having several different ways to
                                              achieve a single result. For me, though, those icons could be smaller:
                                              in Mozilla SeaMonkey I have a choice between "normal" toolbar icons (the
                                              same size as in gvim) and "small" ones (about 16px) and I use the small
                                              ones. OTOH Epanda wants 48px icons. Well, if that's what he likes, he
                                              may have them, and anyone else who wants them may have them too, as long
                                              as I don't have to use them myself: toolbar icons that size would be
                                              much too big and flashy for my taste, but /de gustibus et coloribus non
                                              est disputandum/.

                                              And if the reason is fashion... one of my sigs (I don't remember if it's
                                              one of those I downloaded from Bram's site) is a quote by Oscar Wilde:
                                              «Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it
                                              every six months.» :-)


                                              Best regards,
                                              Tony.
                                              --
                                              TIM: But follow only if you are men of valour. For the entrance to this
                                              cave
                                              is guarded by a monster, a creature so foul and cruel that no man
                                              yet has
                                              fought with it and lived. Bones of full fifty men lie strewn
                                              about its
                                              lair ...
                                              "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY)
                                              PICTURES LTD

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