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RE: Problem with "without Cream" vim-7.2.303 _vimrc

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  • Steve Hall
    ... Yes, in fact the one provided by the default Vim distro. ... I have not updated this in ages, I believe it is the default from the tarball but am not on a
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 2, 2009
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      On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 10:02 +1100, John Beckett wrote:
      >
      > I'm too lazy to check at the moment (I build my own Vim), but
      > does the official Windows distribution of Vim include diff.exe?

      Yes, in fact the one provided by the default Vim distro.

      > I have an old system with "Vim without Cream" and its diff.exe
      > (given "--version" argument) says
      >
      > diff - GNU diffutils version 2.7

      I have not updated this in ages, I believe it is the default from the
      tarball but am not on a Windows box to check.

      > On Windows, the diff that I use is GNU diffutils 2.8.7 but I
      > think it requires gutils.dll.

      Hmm, so then the original MyDiff() might have been ok for you?

      > A quick test makes me think that the diff 2.7 in Cream will work
      > with no MyDiff function.

      I'm just want to be as close to the default distro as possible. I'll
      update the vimrc to use the updated function you originally included
      and not make any judgements about what it *should* be. (A good topic
      for this list maybe.)

      > I can well understand that you do not want to fiddle around
      > distributing the current diffutils, but perhaps you could try
      > removing the following from vimrc:
      >
      > set diffexpr=MyDiff()
      > the MyDiff() function
      >
      > then check if gvim can still do differences. I'm not entirely
      > sure why, but my quick test indicates that with gvim.exe and
      > diff.exe in the same directory (a directory that is not in the
      > PATH), gvim can still invoke diff with no MyDiff. I guess that
      > whatever system call gvim is using to spawn diff is causing
      > Windows to search the same directory as gvim.

      I'm not sure why or how Vim uses diff the way it does, but I would
      have thought this would have been worked out ages ago. My biggest
      concern is that maybe our packaging isn't up to date?

      --
      Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]


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    • Steve Hall
      ... Then I wonder what the origins of MyDiff() are? Why did it come about? -- Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ] -- You received this message from the
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 2, 2009
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        On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 15:33 -0800, Gary Johnson wrote:
        >
        > I just ran that experiment on this minimalist system on which I had
        > installed vim "without Cream" 7.2.303. I commented-out the "set
        > diffexpr=MyDiff()" line in my _vimrc, then executed "Diff with Vim"
        > from the Explorer context menu on a couple of files. It worked
        > fine!

        Then I wonder what the origins of MyDiff() are? Why did it come about?

        --
        Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]


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      • John Beckett
        ... No. People have complained on the wiki that the Vim without Cream distribution does NOT work with diff. There were several misguided suggestions for how
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 2, 2009
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          Steve Hall wrote:
          > Hmm, so then the original MyDiff() might have been ok for you?

          No. People have complained on the wiki that the "Vim without
          Cream" distribution does NOT work with diff. There were several
          misguided suggestions for how to make it work. Last March, I did
          some quick investigations and rewrote the tip:

          http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Running_diff

          For anyone interested, here is how the tip looked before my
          rewrite:
          http://vim.wikia.com/index.php?title=Running_diff&oldid=22184

          I should set up a clean Windows virtual machine and install the
          standard Vim distribution to see what it does. Maybe later...

          John

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        • Henrik Öhman
          ... I was wondering why I hadn t discovered this problem, and then I realised it s because I haven t used the _vimrc that Vim without Cream uses since I
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 3, 2009
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            On Dec 3, 2:14 am, "John Beckett" <johnb.beck...@...> wrote:
            > Steve Hall wrote:
            > > Hmm, so then the original MyDiff() might have been ok for you?
            >
            > No. People have complained on the wiki that the "Vim without
            > Cream" distribution does NOT work with diff. There were several
            > misguided suggestions for how to make it work. Last March, I did
            > some quick investigations and rewrote the tip:
            >
            > http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Running_diff

            I was wondering why I hadn't discovered this problem, and then I
            realised it's because I haven't used the _vimrc that "Vim without
            Cream" uses since I first installed Vim. Diffing with Vim on Windows
            works excellently with 'diffexpr=', and I suggest that Steve removes
            the setting of 'diffexpr' and the MyDiff() function from the default
            _vimrc.

            While we're at it, I also suggest removing 'source $VIMRUNTIME/
            mswin.vim'. It might seem that it makes the transition to Vim for
            windows users easier, when all it really does is delay the inevitable
            'learn to use Vim the way it was meant to be used' brick wall that
            every user has to run into sooner or later. At the very least, there
            should be a warning sign on that line, saying that using 'mswin.vim'
            changes the default behaviour of Vim, and that it might cause
            confusion when asking for help. (Also note that 'mswin.vim' does
            'behave mswin', so that line is redundant anyway.)

            I'd prefer just using 'vimrc_example.vim' as the default _vimrc for
            Windows. It contains good defaults, and good comments, and it helps
            the user to understand what the _vimrc is. For more opinions, I think
            raising the question on vim_use would be a good idea.

            Henrik.

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          • Steve Hall
            ... I have to admit, I haven t used a default vimrc since 1999. :) ... It is up to the Vim project (Bram) to decide what the default _vimrc is, our distro is
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 3, 2009
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              On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 03:49 -0800, Henrik Öhman wrote:
              >
              > I was wondering why I hadn't discovered this problem, and then I
              > realised it's because I haven't used the _vimrc that "Vim without
              > Cream" uses since I first installed Vim.

              I have to admit, I haven't used a default vimrc since 1999. :)

              > Diffing with Vim on Windows works excellently with 'diffexpr=', and
              > I suggest that Steve removes the setting of 'diffexpr' and the
              > MyDiff() function from the default _vimrc.

              It is up to the Vim project (Bram) to decide what the default _vimrc
              is, our distro is simply going to mirror it.

              > While we're at it, I also suggest removing 'source $VIMRUNTIME/
              > mswin.vim'. It might seem that it makes the transition to Vim for
              > windows users easier, when all it really does is delay the
              > inevitable 'learn to use Vim the way it was meant to be used' brick
              > wall that every user has to run into sooner or later. At the very
              > least, there should be a warning sign on that line, saying that
              > using 'mswin.vim' changes the default behaviour of Vim, and that it
              > might cause confusion when asking for help. (Also note that
              > 'mswin.vim' does 'behave mswin', so that line is redundant anyway.)

              Again, I believe referencing mswin in the vimrc is the default, which
              is the only reason our distro does it.

              I agree with your sentiments regarding the suitability of mswin, too,
              although in addition to your "learning Vim" concerns, I include that
              it also doesn't go far enough to help on the other side. Windows
              applications (as well as Mac and Gnome ones) use a whole set of common
              interface rules that mswin does not address, and so a user referencing
              it is left in a sort of semi-Vim state. (And no where close to a CUA
              state as they might expect.) Say, I know a configuration that does
              this though... :)

              > I'd prefer just using 'vimrc_example.vim' as the default _vimrc for
              > Windows. It contains good defaults, and good comments, and it helps
              > the user to understand what the _vimrc is. For more opinions, I
              > think raising the question on vim_use would be a good idea.

              I'm happy to adjust our distro to do whatever ends up in the default
              Vim distribution.


              --
              Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]


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            • Tony Mechelynck
              ... I suggested years ago that mswin.vim be removed (when still on Vim 6.1 [my first Vim], I think, and in any case no later than 6.3) and AFAICT most
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 3, 2009
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                On 03/12/09 12:49, Henrik Öhman wrote:
                > On Dec 3, 2:14 am, "John Beckett"<johnb.beck...@...> wrote:
                >> Steve Hall wrote:
                >>> Hmm, so then the original MyDiff() might have been ok for you?
                >>
                >> No. People have complained on the wiki that the "Vim without
                >> Cream" distribution does NOT work with diff. There were several
                >> misguided suggestions for how to make it work. Last March, I did
                >> some quick investigations and rewrote the tip:
                >>
                >> http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Running_diff
                >
                > I was wondering why I hadn't discovered this problem, and then I
                > realised it's because I haven't used the _vimrc that "Vim without
                > Cream" uses since I first installed Vim. Diffing with Vim on Windows
                > works excellently with 'diffexpr=', and I suggest that Steve removes
                > the setting of 'diffexpr' and the MyDiff() function from the default
                > _vimrc.
                >
                > While we're at it, I also suggest removing 'source $VIMRUNTIME/
                > mswin.vim'. It might seem that it makes the transition to Vim for
                > windows users easier, when all it really does is delay the inevitable
                > 'learn to use Vim the way it was meant to be used' brick wall that
                > every user has to run into sooner or later. At the very least, there
                > should be a warning sign on that line, saying that using 'mswin.vim'
                > changes the default behaviour of Vim, and that it might cause
                > confusion when asking for help. (Also note that 'mswin.vim' does
                > 'behave mswin', so that line is redundant anyway.)

                I suggested years ago that mswin.vim be removed (when still on Vim 6.1
                [my first Vim], I think, and in any case no later than 6.3) and AFAICT
                most experienced Vim hands find mswin.vim a nuisance, but IIUC Bram was
                (and is?) against it. Some people think that making Vim look "more like
                Notepad" will bring more Windows users to Vim; I think that Vim is Vim,
                Notepad is Notepad, and whoever tries to mix them up is bound to end up
                with a self-inflicted shotgun wound in his foot.

                >
                > I'd prefer just using 'vimrc_example.vim' as the default _vimrc for
                > Windows. It contains good defaults, and good comments, and it helps
                > the user to understand what the _vimrc is. For more opinions, I think
                > raising the question on vim_use would be a good idea.
                >
                > Henrik.
                >

                I regard vimrc_example.vim as a good starting point for a vimrc on any
                platform. My recommendation is to start with a vimrc containing just

                runtime vimrc_example.vim

                and then, as time goes by, add more customizations below that (or very
                rarely above it).


                Best regards,
                Tony.
                --
                Would you mind terribly much if I asked you to take your silly-assed
                problem down the hall?

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