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Re: Patch to try out: ":unsilent"

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  • Tony Mechelynck
    ... [...] Looks interesting. Assuming that Vim s behaviour won t change if it isn t used, and considering, as Raúl said, the small cost in terms of code, why
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 1, 2009
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      On 01/07/09 18:55, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
      > Any comments on adding the ":unsilent" command modifier?
      [...]

      Looks interesting. Assuming that Vim's behaviour won't change if it
      isn't used, and considering, as Raúl said, the small cost in terms of
      code, why not?


      Best regards,
      Tony.
      --
      Here in my heart, I am Helen;
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      Here in my soul I am Sappho;
      Lady Hamilton am I, as well.
      In me Récamier vies with Kitty O'Shea,
      With Dido, and Eve, and poor nell.

      I'm all of the glamorous ladies
      At whose beckoning history shook.
      But you are a man, and see only my pan,
      So I stay at home with a book.
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    • Matt Wozniski
      ... It seems like a good idea, if only for the symmetry. Any chance for another change to how :silent works, though, while we re at it? I d find it very
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 1, 2009
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        On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
        >
        > Any comments on adding the ":unsilent" command modifier?

        It seems like a good idea, if only for the symmetry. Any chance for
        another change to how :silent works, though, while we're at it? I'd
        find it very useful in my own scripts if

        :silent echomsg "hello"

        could be used to write a message to the :messages log without
        displaying it to the screen. I was surprised when I found out that
        this didn't work, but of course in retrospect that would have required
        that :echomsg have been special-cased in the code. Maybe we could add
        a :msgonly modifier that behaves like :silent but does add to the
        message history?

        ~Matt

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      • Bram Moolenaar
        ... The message history is to store displayed messages. If a message isn t displayed then it should not be in the history. If you want to log some things to
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 2, 2009
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          Matt Wozniski wrote:

          > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
          > >
          > > Any comments on adding the ":unsilent" command modifier?
          >
          > It seems like a good idea, if only for the symmetry. Any chance for
          > another change to how :silent works, though, while we're at it? I'd
          > find it very useful in my own scripts if
          >
          > :silent echomsg "hello"
          >
          > could be used to write a message to the :messages log without
          > displaying it to the screen. I was surprised when I found out that
          > this didn't work, but of course in retrospect that would have required
          > that :echomsg have been special-cased in the code. Maybe we could add
          > a :msgonly modifier that behaves like :silent but does add to the
          > message history?

          The message history is to store displayed messages. If a message isn't
          displayed then it should not be in the history.

          If you want to log some things to see what your plugin is doing you can
          use a global List and append to that.

          --
          The real
          trick is
          this: to
          keep the
          lines as
          short as
          possible
          and keep
          the size
          the same
          yet free
          from the
          need for
          hyphena-
          Dammit!! (Matthew Winn)

          /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
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        • Matt Wozniski
          Oops, accidentally sent this to Bram off-list. ... It just seems that it would be nicer if each plugin didn t need to roll its own ad-hoc logging solution.
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 2, 2009
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            Oops, accidentally sent this to Bram off-list.

            Bram Moolenaar wrote:
            >
            > Matt Wozniski wrote:
            >
            >> Bram Moolenaar wrote:
            >> >
            >> > Any comments on adding the ":unsilent" command modifier?
            >>
            >> Maybe we could add
            >> a :msgonly modifier that behaves like :silent but does add to the
            >> message history?
            >
            > The message history is to store displayed messages.  If a message isn't
            > displayed then it should not be in the history.
            >
            > If you want to log some things to see what your plugin is doing you can
            > use a global List and append to that.

            It just seems that it would be nicer if each plugin didn't need to
            roll its own ad-hoc logging solution.  When something goes wrong, a
            lot of experienced vim users will instinctively check :messages to see
            if an error managed to slip by them unnoticed, so the message history
            seems like an intuitive place to do logging.  It not only would save
            plugin authors the need to roll their own logging solution, but would
            save plugin users from having to learn which plugins do provide their
            own logging, and learning how to view the log for each.

            It's not something I feel terribly strongly about one way or the
            other, but I definitely think that extending the message history from
            it's current definition to "A list of messages that can give you
            insight about what happened recently" would be more useful.

            ~Matt

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          • Ingo Karkat
            ... I guessed you would want this for debugging / logging, though one has to differentiate: If the plugin really needs to inform the user about something, ...
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 2, 2009
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              On 02-Jul-09 22:47, Matt Wozniski wrote:
              > Bram Moolenaar wrote:
              >> Matt Wozniski wrote:
              >>> Bram Moolenaar wrote:
              >>>> Any comments on adding the ":unsilent" command modifier?
              >>> Maybe we could add
              >>> a :msgonly modifier that behaves like :silent but does add to the
              >>> message history?
              >> The message history is to store displayed messages. If a message isn't
              >> displayed then it should not be in the history.
              >>
              >> If you want to log some things to see what your plugin is doing you can
              >> use a global List and append to that.
              >
              > It just seems that it would be nicer if each plugin didn't need to
              > roll its own ad-hoc logging solution. When something goes wrong, a
              > lot of experienced vim users will instinctively check :messages to see
              > if an error managed to slip by them unnoticed, so the message history
              > seems like an intuitive place to do logging. It not only would save
              > plugin authors the need to roll their own logging solution, but would
              > save plugin users from having to learn which plugins do provide their
              > own logging, and learning how to view the log for each.
              >
              > It's not something I feel terribly strongly about one way or the
              > other, but I definitely think that extending the message history from
              > it's current definition to "A list of messages that can give you
              > insight about what happened recently" would be more useful.

              I guessed you would want this for debugging / logging, though one has to
              differentiate: If the plugin really needs to inform the user about something,
              :echomsg fits perfectly, and the message should also be visible. If this is
              internal, implementation-specific tracing stuff for debugging by plugin writers
              or troubleshooting, this should normally be hidden from view.

              For the latter purpose, I use :echomsg during development, and comment out these
              before moving the script into production. I know about Dr.Chip's Decho plugin,
              which provides much more functionality in that area. Of course, as a plugin
              author, I would love to have :tracemsg, :set trace=myscript,yourscript and :set
              tracefile=/tmp/trace.log commands built-in. But I don't think these should be
              combined into the :messages functionality.

              -- just my two cents, ingo
              --
              -- Ingo Karkat -- /^-- /^-- /^-- /^-- /^-- /^-- http://ingo-karkat.de/ --
              -- http://vim.sourceforge.net/account/profile.php?user_id=9713 --


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            • Bram Moolenaar
              ... Look at the stuff that Charles Campbell made. I don t think that uniform logging will help, really. I mean, what s simpler than: let g:mylog = [] ...
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 3, 2009
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                Matt Wozniski wrote:

                > Oops, accidentally sent this to Bram off-list.
                >
                > Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                > >
                > > Matt Wozniski wrote:
                > >
                > >> Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                > >> >
                > >> > Any comments on adding the ":unsilent" command modifier?
                > >>
                > >> Maybe we could add
                > >> a :msgonly modifier that behaves like :silent but does add to the
                > >> message history?
                > >
                > > The message history is to store displayed messages. Â If a message isn't
                > > displayed then it should not be in the history.
                > >
                > > If you want to log some things to see what your plugin is doing you can
                > > use a global List and append to that.
                >
                > It just seems that it would be nicer if each plugin didn't need to
                > roll its own ad-hoc logging solution. Â When something goes wrong, a
                > lot of experienced vim users will instinctively check :messages to see
                > if an error managed to slip by them unnoticed, so the message history
                > seems like an intuitive place to do logging. Â It not only would save
                > plugin authors the need to roll their own logging solution, but would
                > save plugin users from having to learn which plugins do provide their
                > own logging, and learning how to view the log for each.
                >
                > It's not something I feel terribly strongly about one way or the
                > other, but I definitely think that extending the message history from
                > it's current definition to "A list of messages that can give you
                > insight about what happened recently" would be more useful.

                Look at the stuff that Charles Campbell made.

                I don't think that "uniform logging" will help, really. I mean, what's
                simpler than:

                let g:mylog = []

                ...

                call add(g:mylog, "I did something!")

                ...

                echo g:mylog

                --
                hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                53. To find out what time it is, you send yourself an e-mail and check the
                "Date:" field.

                /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                \\\ download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
                \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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