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Re: doc suggestion

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  • George V. Reilly
    On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Tony Mechelynck ... VimL scripting was introduced in Vim 5.0, eleven years ago, according to
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 4 7:33 PM
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      On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Tony Mechelynck
      <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:

      > If some version of Vim 3 already had the function (i.e. it was already
      > there as other than a "new feature" in Vim 4.0.000), then I suppose you
      > can say by now that it's been there "forever", and the only case when
      > you might still be unable to use it is if you use a non-feature-complete
      > Vim lacking some optional feature which includes that function. Of
      > course, -eval versions include no functions at all.

      VimL scripting was introduced in Vim 5.0, eleven years ago, according
      to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_(text_editor)#History. Personally,
      I wouldn't expend more than a few minutes ensuring compatibility with
      Vim 6.0 (2001), especially if you need dictionaries and other 7.0
      features.

      I think it's a mistake to continue supporting users who run really old
      versions of Vim or really old operating systems. Their numbers are
      dwindling and supporting them has real costs in terms of testing and
      code complexity. Look at the horrendous amounts of conditional code in
      the C source. If they don't want to upgrade (or can't), they'll have
      to accept limitations. They certainly have to from other programs.
      --
      /George V. Reilly george@...
      http://www.georgevreilly.com/blog http://blogs.cozi.com/tech

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    • Tony Mechelynck
      ... Didn t legacy Vi have exrc files? And how were they written if it wasn t in what could be recognizably seen as what evolved to become vimscript? ... Yeah,
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 5 2:38 AM
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        On 05/04/09 04:33, George V. Reilly wrote:
        >
        > On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Tony Mechelynck
        > <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:
        >
        >> If some version of Vim 3 already had the function (i.e. it was already
        >> there as other than a "new feature" in Vim 4.0.000), then I suppose you
        >> can say by now that it's been there "forever", and the only case when
        >> you might still be unable to use it is if you use a non-feature-complete
        >> Vim lacking some optional feature which includes that function. Of
        >> course, -eval versions include no functions at all.
        >
        > VimL scripting was introduced in Vim 5.0, eleven years ago, according
        > to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_(text_editor)#History. Personally,
        > I wouldn't expend more than a few minutes ensuring compatibility with
        > Vim 6.0 (2001), especially if you need dictionaries and other 7.0
        > features.

        Didn't legacy Vi have exrc files? And how were they written if it wasn't
        in what could be recognizably seen as what evolved to become vimscript?

        >
        > I think it's a mistake to continue supporting users who run really old
        > versions of Vim or really old operating systems. Their numbers are
        > dwindling and supporting them has real costs in terms of testing and
        > code complexity. Look at the horrendous amounts of conditional code in
        > the C source. If they don't want to upgrade (or can't), they'll have
        > to accept limitations. They certainly have to from other programs.

        Yeah, I rather think so too, but maybe with a different emphasis. I
        think in terms of my present Vim 7.2 "with the latest patches", but I
        write my vimrc etc. with appropriate "if has(...)" and "if exists(...)"
        so they'll work on most Vim versions with as few errors as I can manage
        (as they say, "be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you
        emit"). My whole vimrc includes if statements practically everywhere
        (even ":if 1" in places) to avoid errors with the tiny minimum-features
        version which I compile as a sanity check besides my day-to-day
        workhorse Huge-with-GUI (whose binary is more than six times larger
        after stripping).

        When someone complains of a problem and mentions some "obsolete" Vim
        version, I give as good an answer as I can think of, but I never fail to
        mention the current version and patchlevel, with a sentence along the
        lines of "I recommend that you upgrade: it will not necessarily cure
        this problem, but it may cure other problems that you are or aren't
        aware of".


        Best regards,
        Tony.
        --
        ARTHUR: Now stand aside worthy adversary.
        BLACK KNIGHT: (Glancing at his shoulder) 'Tis but a scratch.
        ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off.
        "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY)
        PICTURES LTD

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      • Bram Moolenaar
        ... This gets really messy, especially if you also want to mention extensions and changes done in a later version. And worse when including bug fixes. You can
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 5 8:54 AM
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          Yakov Lerner wrote:

          > If vimscript functions had remark "Added in vim7.1.129", it would be
          > useful. For example, if you want to know how portable the script is.

          This gets really messy, especially if you also want to mention
          extensions and changes done in a later version. And worse when
          including bug fixes.

          You can find the information in the version*.txt help files.
          E.g. with ":help version7" you can see that all the List and Dictionary
          stuff has been added in Vim 7.0. So instead of adding a remark "since
          Vim 7.0" to every command, function, variable, etc. that uses a List
          there is only this remark. It's a bit more work to figure out when
          something got added, but it avoids a lot of mess scattered in the help
          files. Some people may already find the {not in Vi} comments annoying.

          --
          TALL KNIGHT OF NI: Ni!
          "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD

          /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
          /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
          \\\ download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
          \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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        • Tony Mechelynck
          ... Well, OT1H they are somewhat annoying, but OTOH they are a warning that there might (not necessarily, but possibly) be a behaviour difference depending on
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 5 3:47 PM
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            On 05/04/09 17:54, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
            > [...] Some people may already find the {not in Vi} comments annoying.

            Well, OT1H they are somewhat annoying, but OTOH they are a warning that
            there might (not necessarily, but possibly) be a behaviour difference
            depending on the 'compatible' status; and seeing how many newbies are
            still constantly bitten by the 'compatible' worm ('t ain't a bug, haha
            ;-) ), I'd say that on the whole those comments are useful, even for
            people who never use "legacy" Vi.


            Best regards,
            Tony.
            --
            Absinthe makes the tart grow fonder.

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          • Spencer Collyer
            ... IIRC, Vi s exrc files were just lists of Ex commands. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the vim_dev
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 5 11:12 PM
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              On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:38:18 +0200, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
              >
              > On 05/04/09 04:33, George V. Reilly wrote:
              > >
              > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Tony Mechelynck
              > > <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:
              > >

              > > VimL scripting was introduced in Vim 5.0, eleven years ago,
              > > according to
              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_(text_editor)#History. Personally,
              > > I wouldn't expend more than a few minutes ensuring compatibility
              > > with Vim 6.0 (2001), especially if you need dictionaries and other
              > > 7.0 features.
              >
              > Didn't legacy Vi have exrc files? And how were they written if it
              > wasn't in what could be recognizably seen as what evolved to become
              > vimscript?
              >

              IIRC, Vi's exrc files were just lists of Ex commands.

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            • George V. Reilly
              On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Spencer Collyer ... Pretty much just :map and :set. Look at the code in $VIMRUNTIME/macros and shudder. -- /George V. Reilly
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 6 12:09 AM
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                On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Spencer Collyer
                <spencer@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:38:18 +0200, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
                >>
                >> On 05/04/09 04:33, George V. Reilly wrote:
                >> >
                >> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Tony Mechelynck
                >> > <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:
                >> >
                >
                >> > VimL scripting was introduced in Vim 5.0, eleven years ago,
                >> > according to
                >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_(text_editor)#History. Personally,
                >> > I wouldn't expend more than a few minutes ensuring compatibility
                >> > with Vim 6.0 (2001), especially if you need dictionaries and other
                >> > 7.0 features.
                >>
                >> Didn't legacy Vi have exrc files? And how were they written if it
                >> wasn't in what could be recognizably seen as what evolved to become
                >> vimscript?
                >>
                >
                > IIRC, Vi's exrc files were just lists of Ex commands.

                Pretty much just :map and :set. Look at the code in $VIMRUNTIME/macros
                and shudder.
                --
                /George V. Reilly george@...
                http://www.georgevreilly.com/blog http://blogs.cozi.com/tech

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              • Tony Mechelynck
                ... [...] ... art, except of course that it rightly belongs in $VIMRUNTIME/plugin. Best regards, Tony. -- This fortune intentionally not included.
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 6 9:57 AM
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                  On 06/04/09 09:09, George V. Reilly wrote:
                  > On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Spencer Collyer
                  > <spencer@...> wrote:
                  [...]
                  >> IIRC, Vi's exrc files were just lists of Ex commands.
                  >
                  > Pretty much just :map and :set. Look at the code in $VIMRUNTIME/macros
                  > and shudder.

                  :-) Depends what in $VIMRUNTIME/macros. matchit.vim is a real work of
                  art, except of course that it rightly belongs in $VIMRUNTIME/plugin.


                  Best regards,
                  Tony.
                  --
                  This fortune intentionally not included.

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