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Minor doc bug in digraph.txt

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  • Tony Mechelynck
    Under :help digraph (near the top of digraph.txt dated 2008 Jul 17), at the second sentence in the first paragraph there is: These are mostly accented
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 6, 2008
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      Under ":help digraph" (near the top of digraph.txt dated 2008 Jul 17),
      at the second sentence in the first paragraph

      there is:
      These are mostly accented characters which have the eighth bit set.

      there should be:
      In 8-bit encodings, these are mostly accented characters which have the
      eighth bit set; in 16-bit and multibyte encodings there can be a lot more.

      Alternative (maybe even better) wording:
      These are mostly accented and non-ASCII characters above 0x7F.

      Rationale: In 16-bit and multi-byte encodings, roughly half of the
      digraphs are for characters which actually have the 8th bit unset (but
      some higher bit[s] set); also, in these encodings there are often quite
      a number of non-Latin or even graphical characters which cannot be
      described as "accented".


      Best regards,
      Tony.
      --
      Two can Live as Cheaply as One for Half as Long.
      -- Howard Kandel

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    • Bram Moolenaar
      ... Yeah, the text is from before multi-byte support. I think this works better: Digraphs are used to enter characters that normally cannot be entered by an
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 6, 2008
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        Tony Mechelynck wrote:

        > Under ":help digraph" (near the top of digraph.txt dated 2008 Jul 17),
        > at the second sentence in the first paragraph
        >
        > there is:
        > These are mostly accented characters which have the eighth bit set.
        >
        > there should be:
        > In 8-bit encodings, these are mostly accented characters which have the
        > eighth bit set; in 16-bit and multibyte encodings there can be a lot more.
        >
        > Alternative (maybe even better) wording:
        > These are mostly accented and non-ASCII characters above 0x7F.
        >
        > Rationale: In 16-bit and multi-byte encodings, roughly half of the
        > digraphs are for characters which actually have the 8th bit unset (but
        > some higher bit[s] set); also, in these encodings there are often quite
        > a number of non-Latin or even graphical characters which cannot be
        > described as "accented".

        Yeah, the text is from before multi-byte support. I think this works
        better:

        Digraphs are used to enter characters that normally cannot be entered by
        an ordinary keyboard. These are mostly printable non-ASCII characters. The
        digraphs are easier to remember than the decimal number that can be entered
        with CTRL-V (see |i_CTRL-V|).

        --
        ARTHUR: What does it say?
        BROTHER MAYNARD: It reads ... "Here may be found the last words of Joseph of
        Aramathea." "He who is valorous and pure of heart may find
        the Holy Grail in the aaaaarrrrrrggghhh..."
        ARTHUR: What?
        BROTHER MAYNARD: "The Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh..."
        "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD

        /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
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      • Tony Mechelynck
        ... Best regards, Tony. -- Zymurgy s Law of Volunteer Labor: People are always available for work in the past tense.
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 6, 2008
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          On 06/08/08 19:16, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
          >
          > Tony Mechelynck wrote:
          >
          >> Under ":help digraph" (near the top of digraph.txt dated 2008 Jul 17),
          >> at the second sentence in the first paragraph
          >>
          >> there is:
          >> These are mostly accented characters which have the eighth bit set.
          >>
          >> there should be:
          >> In 8-bit encodings, these are mostly accented characters which have the
          >> eighth bit set; in 16-bit and multibyte encodings there can be a lot more.
          >>
          >> Alternative (maybe even better) wording:
          >> These are mostly accented and non-ASCII characters above 0x7F.
          >>
          >> Rationale: In 16-bit and multi-byte encodings, roughly half of the
          >> digraphs are for characters which actually have the 8th bit unset (but
          >> some higher bit[s] set); also, in these encodings there are often quite
          >> a number of non-Latin or even graphical characters which cannot be
          >> described as "accented".
          >
          > Yeah, the text is from before multi-byte support. I think this works
          > better:
          >
          > Digraphs are used to enter characters that normally cannot be entered by
          > an ordinary keyboard. These are mostly printable non-ASCII characters. The
          > digraphs are easier to remember than the decimal number that can be entered
          > with CTRL-V (see |i_CTRL-V|).
          >
          -----------------^ |i_CTRL-V_digit|


          Best regards,
          Tony.
          --
          Zymurgy's Law of Volunteer Labor:
          People are always available for work in the past tense.

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        • Ben Schmidt
          ... True. (Well, except Chinese etc. characters are not letters.) But do these really fall into the category of normally cannot be entered by an ordinary
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 7, 2008
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            >>> Alternative (maybe even better) wording:
            >>> These are mostly accented and non-ASCII characters above 0x7F.
            >> That's OK. Not sure I like 'non-ASCII' as a description, as ASCII is
            >> getting rare language-wise these days and is not broadly understood like
            >> it used to be. But the point that 'accented' doesn't really cut it is a
            >> valid one. Perhaps 'accented characters and symbols' is better.
            >
            > "accented characters and symbols" does not apply to Greek, Cyrillic,
            > Hebrew, Arabic, Hindi, Chinese, etc., which are letters, not symbols,
            > but mostly non-accented (with a few exceptions). They aren't ASCII or
            > even Latin, BTW.

            True. (Well, except Chinese etc. characters are not letters.) But do
            these really fall into the category of 'normally cannot be entered by an
            ordinary keyboard'? To call international keyboards un-ordinary is
            bordering on derogatory, and their input methods abnormal likely to be
            at least debatable, if not provably wrong, or soon to be so. I don't
            think the point of digraphs is to enter such characters. With the
            built-in ones in the case of Hanzi, you mostly can't, either. Were I
            typing Greek, it would be to get accented characters that I would use
            digraphs (and I'd have to define them, as they're not built in). As it
            is, I use a keymap, as I tend to do for foreign languages unless I just
            use my system's input methods. I tend to use digraphs to get either
            diacritics for letters I otherwise can type without them, or symbols,
            and I think that's really their use.

            >> Thought I'd just up the pedantry.
            >
            > Sure, but if we're going to be pedant, I won't accept any
            > "wooden-tongue" fake pedantry from anyone.

            Yeah, well, perhaps it was a pretty lame excuse for pedantry, but one
            step at a time! The adjective is 'pedantic,' by the way.

            Winks,

            Ben.



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          • Tony Mechelynck
            ... --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the vim_dev maillist. For more information, visit
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 7, 2008
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              On 07/08/08 10:55, Ben Schmidt wrote:
              >>>> Alternative (maybe even better) wording:
              >>>> These are mostly accented and non-ASCII characters above 0x7F.
              >>> That's OK. Not sure I like 'non-ASCII' as a description, as ASCII is
              >>> getting rare language-wise these days and is not broadly understood like
              >>> it used to be. But the point that 'accented' doesn't really cut it is a
              >>> valid one. Perhaps 'accented characters and symbols' is better.
              >> "accented characters and symbols" does not apply to Greek, Cyrillic,
              >> Hebrew, Arabic, Hindi, Chinese, etc., which are letters, not symbols,
              >> but mostly non-accented (with a few exceptions). They aren't ASCII or
              >> even Latin, BTW.
              >
              > True. (Well, except Chinese etc. characters are not letters.) But do
              > these really fall into the category of 'normally cannot be entered by an
              > ordinary keyboard'? To call international keyboards un-ordinary is
              > bordering on derogatory, and their input methods abnormal likely to be
              > at least debatable, if not provably wrong, or soon to be so. I don't
              > think the point of digraphs is to enter such characters. With the
              > built-in ones in the case of Hanzi, you mostly can't, either. Were I
              > typing Greek, it would be to get accented characters that I would use
              > digraphs (and I'd have to define them, as they're not built in). As it
              > is, I use a keymap, as I tend to do for foreign languages unless I just
              > use my system's input methods. I tend to use digraphs to get either
              > diacritics for letters I otherwise can type without them, or symbols,
              > and I think that's really their use.
              >
              >>> Thought I'd just up the pedantry.
              >> Sure, but if we're going to be pedant, I won't accept any
              >> "wooden-tongue" fake pedantry from anyone.
              >
              > Yeah, well, perhaps it was a pretty lame excuse for pedantry, but one
              > step at a time! The adjective is 'pedantic,' by the way.
              >
              > Winks,
              >
              > Ben.
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              >


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            • Tony Mechelynck
              ... Hm. What is a letter? I think I ve seen treatises about Chinese writing where ideograms are called letters . ... You have a point there. Calling US-QWERTY
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 7, 2008
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                On 07/08/08 10:55, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                >>>> Alternative (maybe even better) wording:
                >>>> These are mostly accented and non-ASCII characters above 0x7F.
                >>> That's OK. Not sure I like 'non-ASCII' as a description, as ASCII is
                >>> getting rare language-wise these days and is not broadly understood like
                >>> it used to be. But the point that 'accented' doesn't really cut it is a
                >>> valid one. Perhaps 'accented characters and symbols' is better.
                >> "accented characters and symbols" does not apply to Greek, Cyrillic,
                >> Hebrew, Arabic, Hindi, Chinese, etc., which are letters, not symbols,
                >> but mostly non-accented (with a few exceptions). They aren't ASCII or
                >> even Latin, BTW.
                >
                > True. (Well, except Chinese etc. characters are not letters.)

                Hm. What is a letter? I think I've seen treatises about Chinese writing
                where ideograms are called "letters".

                > But do
                > these really fall into the category of 'normally cannot be entered by an
                > ordinary keyboard'?

                You have a point there. Calling US-QWERTY "ordinary" and everything else
                "out of the ordinary" is the kind of parochialism which, when coming
                from Usonians, often sets my nerves on edge. We just can't put that sort
                of language into a help file which is aimed at people from all nations
                and is supposed to have been written by a Dutchman currently living in
                Switzerland.

                > To call international keyboards un-ordinary is
                > bordering on derogatory, and their input methods abnormal likely to be
                > at least debatable, if not provably wrong, or soon to be so. I don't
                > think the point of digraphs is to enter such characters. With the
                > built-in ones in the case of Hanzi, you mostly can't, either. Were I
                > typing Greek, it would be to get accented characters that I would use
                > digraphs (and I'd have to define them, as they're not built in). As it
                > is, I use a keymap, as I tend to do for foreign languages unless I just
                > use my system's input methods. I tend to use digraphs to get either
                > diacritics for letters I otherwise can type without them, or symbols,
                > and I think that's really their use.

                When I type Russian or Greek, I may use digraphs if what I need is a
                letter or a word, because of the lesser overhead in not needing to
                source a keymap; for a Russian sentence or more I will use my own-coded
                russian-phonetic keymap (which I don't think is fit for public
                consumption: in particular, for many people it has too many two-key
                {lhs}es); for Greek i haven't yet tried the distributed Greek keymap but
                by looking at it I think it might be usable, even for classical Greek.

                >
                >>> Thought I'd just up the pedantry.
                >> Sure, but if we're going to be pedant, I won't accept any
                >> "wooden-tongue" fake pedantry from anyone.
                >
                > Yeah, well, perhaps it was a pretty lame excuse for pedantry, but one
                > step at a time! The adjective is 'pedantic,' by the way.
                >
                > Winks,
                >
                > Ben.

                Oops! Hit "Send" too fast.

                Strike one for my misguided sense of how English words are derived by
                French. According to Oxford's, in English "pedant" is the noun,
                "pedantic" is the adjective, even though both "pedant" and "-ic" are
                derived from French and the French word is "pédant" for both noun and
                adjective: "pédantique" doesn't exist.

                I should have said: "If we're going to be pedants, ..."

                Best regards,
                Tony.
                --
                When a Banker jumps out of a window, jump after him -- that's where the
                money is.
                -- Robespierre

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