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Re: VIM and NTFS streams

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  • krischik
    ... One of the reasons I feel so strongly about this issue is the fact that I used OS/2 before where storing the file type in the extended attributes was
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 4, 2008
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      On 4 Feb., 15:18, krischik <krisc...@...> wrote:

      > And it is precisely those "simple abstractions (files/directories)
      > available on all modern systems"  which bring those problems. Only:
      > It's not "modern systems" - it's "between 1 and 2 decades old
      > systems". Truly modern operating systems support extended attributes.

      One of the reasons I feel so strongly about this issue is the fact
      that I used OS/2 before where storing the file type in the extended
      attributes was standart. And it worked a lot better then extensions
      (Dos) or scanning the first 256 bytes for magic patterns (Unix). There
      was no guessing involved: The first filetype (the .TYPE xattrib in OS/
      2 is a list) was the primary filetype the rest where possible
      alternative representations (like a html file could also be
      represented as plain text).

      And then there was the .ICON xattrib - how I miss the .ICON xattrib -
      I could drag and drop an icon to every file and from thereon the file
      would be represented by that icon.

      Now, nostalgia besides: The point is that those "simple abstractions"
      lead to primitive solutions. And indeed OS/2 with it's advanced file
      system offered a user experience which even Vista won't offer you. KDE
      offers some of it - for the price of littering you filesystem with
      ".directory" files. But KDE still can't do what OS/2 could do - mainly
      because they would need use extended attributes to do so - and the KDE
      developers follow the same line of thought you do - which in turn
      holds them back.

      Martin

      PS: On FAT the extended attributes where stored in a file called "EA
      DATA. SF" - which shows that even older file systems can be taught new
      tricks.
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    • Matt Wozniski
      ... While this would be nice, it would require support code from every application you have. It may only be 6 lines, but 6 lines * 5000 binaries is much more
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 4, 2008
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        On Feb 4, 2008 9:18 AM, krischik wrote:
        >
        > On the other hand use of extended attributes could solve a problem
        > with 5 lines of code where solving the same problem without could cost
        > you 50. Determine file types, text file line endings and text file
        > encoding come to my mind here. Ask Bram how many line of code he
        > needed in Vim to determine these three informations. With consequent
        > use of xattribs it would have been 6 lines:
        >
        > char mime_type[64];
        > char mime_encoding[64];
        > char line_ending[64];
        >
        > getxattr (filename, "Content-Type",mime_type, sizeof mime_type);
        > getxattr (filename, "Line-Ending", line_ending, sizeof line_ending);
        > getxattr (filename, "Content-Encoding",mime_encoding, sizeof
        > mime_encoding);

        While this would be nice, it would require support code from every
        application you have. It may only be 6 lines, but 6 lines * 5000
        binaries is much more code than is in vim for line ending detection.
        After all, vim can't use this information unless something put it
        there, which requires that everything that can create a file - from
        touch to wget to shell redirection - needs to be able to put that
        attribute into the file. And, AFAIK, there's no way for those wget or
        shell redirection to even know what type of line ending the data that
        they wrote out had. Which means they'd need to detect it. Which
        would require that just about every program out there that is
        transcribing a data stream from one spot to another, rather than
        authoring it itself, would need to duplicate the sort of EOL detection
        code in vim in itself. And vim would still need to continue
        supporting the old way since it's designed to run on filesystems that
        still don't support extended attributes - or it would need to come up
        with a way to fake extended attributes on those FS types. No one is
        saying that extended attributes can't do useful things - just that
        without being in any way standardized, it's unreasonable to expect
        that any attributes will ever be set by anyone but you.

        That being said, if vim had a convenient way to see if extended
        attributes support was available on the filesystem, it might be worth
        caching things like the fileformat in the extended attributes, so it
        only needed to be computed once... Though that might open up a whole
        new can of worms, since someone could easily change the line endings
        with another tool between two vim runs, confusing the n00b user with a
        bunch of ^M's show up everywhere... all in all, this is one place
        where manual detection seems the best idea.

        For things like content encoding, it might be more useful - but again,
        since every other tool doesn't create it, vim would still need to fall
        back on autodetection if it couldn't find an attribute for it.

        ~Matt

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      • krischik
        ... But the other 5000 applications need detection as well. I did mention webserver and browser getting detection wrong. konquror/nautilus/ explorer needs
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 4, 2008
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          On 4 Feb., 21:10, "Matt Wozniski" <m...@...> wrote:
          > On Feb 4, 2008 9:18 AM, krischik wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > > On the other hand use of extended attributes could solve a problem
          > > with 5 lines of code where solving the same problem without could cost
          > > you 50. Determine file types, text file line endings and text file
          > > encoding come to my mind here. Ask Bram how many line of code he
          > > needed in Vim to determine these three informations. With consequent
          > > use of xattribs it would have been 6 lines:
          >
          > > char mime_type[64];
          > > char mime_encoding[64];
          > > char line_ending[64];
          >
          > > getxattr (filename, "Content-Type",mime_type, sizeof mime_type);
          > > getxattr (filename, "Line-Ending", line_ending, sizeof line_ending);
          > > getxattr (filename, "Content-Encoding",mime_encoding, sizeof
          > > mime_encoding);
          >
          > While this would be nice, it would require support code from every
          > application you have.  It may only be 6 lines, but 6 lines * 5000
          > binaries is much more code than is in vim for line ending detection.

          But the other 5000 applications need detection as well. I did mention
          webserver and browser getting detection wrong. konquror/nautilus/
          explorer needs detection and far more complex then vim. And sure OS/2
          needed detection. But there you could always overwrite faulty detected
          value by manualy correcting the EA's.

          > After all, vim can't use this information unless something put it
          > there, which requires that everything that can create a file - from
          > touch to wget to shell redirection - needs to be able to put that
          > attribute into the file.  And, AFAIK, there's no way for those wget or
          > shell redirection to even know what type of line ending the data that
          > they wrote out had.  Which means they'd need to detect it.

          Just one example: The OS/2 version of ZIP would pack extended
          attributes. Once it catches on then more application will support it.
          But I know that this won't happen. We went down the "worse is better"
          way for far to long.

          > Which
          > would require that just about every program out there that is
          > transcribing a data stream from one spot to another, rather than
          > authoring it itself, would need to duplicate the sort of EOL detection
          > code in vim in itself.  And vim would still need to continue
          > supporting the old way since it's designed to run on filesystems that
          > still don't support extended attributes - or it would need to come up
          > with a way to fake extended attributes on those FS types.  No one is
          > saying that extended attributes can't do useful things - just that
          > without being in any way standardized, it's unreasonable to expect
          > that any attributes will ever be set by anyone but you.

          Ahh, indeed, there is the problem and the reason why computing has not
          advanced as much in the last 15 years as one would have expected
          seeing the 15 years before: Backward compatibilty has hobbled us.

          Martin
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        • Matt Wozniski
          ... I m not sure that most other apps do need detection. wget, for instance, doesn t have to care what line endings the data it saves has. But, for what you
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 4, 2008
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            On Feb 4, 2008 4:29 PM, krischik wrote:
            >
            > On 4 Feb., 21:10, "Matt Wozniski" wrote:
            > >
            > > While this would be nice, it would require support code from every
            > > application you have. It may only be 6 lines, but 6 lines * 5000
            > > binaries is much more code than is in vim for line ending detection.
            >
            > But the other 5000 applications need detection as well. I did mention
            > webserver and browser getting detection wrong. konquror/nautilus/
            > explorer needs detection and far more complex then vim. And sure OS/2
            > needed detection. But there you could always overwrite faulty detected
            > value by manualy correcting the EA's.

            I'm not sure that most other apps do need detection. wget, for
            instance, doesn't have to care what line endings the data it saves
            has. But, for what you want, it would have to detect and save it,
            even though it doesn't use it. Shell redirection has no idea what's
            going through it, so it has no way to possibly say what Content-type
            it is... or dd... or tar extracting files that were created on a
            filesystem that didn't track extended attributes...

            > > After all, vim can't use this information unless something put it
            > > there, which requires that everything that can create a file - from
            > > touch to wget to shell redirection - needs to be able to put that
            > > attribute into the file. And, AFAIK, there's no way for those wget or
            > > shell redirection to even know what type of line ending the data that
            > > they wrote out had. Which means they'd need to detect it.
            >
            > Just one example: The OS/2 version of ZIP would pack extended
            > attributes. Once it catches on then more application will support it.
            > But I know that this won't happen. We went down the "worse is better"
            > way for far to long.

            The issue isn't waiting for it to catch on, it's that until it's
            universally available it only increases the amount of code and
            maintenance burden. And, there's no way that it would ever be
            universally available for things like line endings style, because most
            applications just don't know or need to care, so have no reason to set
            that attribute. Things like marking the content encoding might be
            more useful, but still, not good to work with... If, for example, you
            had a file "test.txt" encoded in UTF-16 and with extended attributes
            marking it as such, and your locale is set to use UTF-8, what would
            you expect the result of "cp test.txt test2.txt" to be? What about
            "cat text.txt >text2.txt"? If you expect those two commands to have
            the same effect, I don't see how it can be done without changes to cp
            (mark attrs on dest), cat (mark attrs on stdout), and the kernel
            itself (allow extended attributes on streams).

            > > Which
            > > would require that just about every program out there that is
            > > transcribing a data stream from one spot to another, rather than
            > > authoring it itself, would need to duplicate the sort of EOL detection
            > > code in vim in itself. And vim would still need to continue
            > > supporting the old way since it's designed to run on filesystems that
            > > still don't support extended attributes - or it would need to come up
            > > with a way to fake extended attributes on those FS types. No one is
            > > saying that extended attributes can't do useful things - just that
            > > without being in any way standardized, it's unreasonable to expect
            > > that any attributes will ever be set by anyone but you.
            >
            > Ahh, indeed, there is the problem and the reason why computing has not
            > advanced as much in the last 15 years as one would have expected
            > seeing the 15 years before: Backward compatibilty has hobbled us.

            The problem with this idea isn't the limitations inherent in backwards
            compatibility - if it were worthwhile to do, it's no problem to have
            code that uses attributes if possible and the old, backwards
            compatible method if not. The problem is that creating this standard
            and tying it properly into a POSIX OS would require a lot of low-level
            changes. If we can agree on the requirements - that there must be
            some number of predefined attributes that are set on every regular
            file (and what about special files?), that the operating system must
            handle initializing these attributes correctly when a file is created,
            that streams would also need to have attributes, and that copying,
            extracting, and in general "moving around" data will "just work", can
            you see how difficult this would be to implement? To fully implement
            this, the very least that's required is an operating system that only
            supports filesystems that have some way of storing extended
            attributes, a kernel that's able to initialize each of those
            attributes on every file created, a shell that knows how to get/set
            these attributes (and which it needs to set), and a copy of the
            coreutils that are aware of the changes (so that "cp file1 file2"
            creates file2 with the attrs of file1, not the defaults), at the very
            least? And that work is just the baseline - the point where other
            software can start counting on a base set of attributes that will
            always exist, and trusting that they're correct. On a quick glance, I
            see absolutely no way to do this properly without support from the OS.

            ~Matt

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          • Ben Schmidt
            ... Indeed, I think it has. The Mac OS used to use resource forks and type attributes which were beautiful. Now we have descended to the level of extensions
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 4, 2008
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              > Ahh, indeed, there is the problem and the reason why computing has not
              > advanced as much in the last 15 years as one would have expected
              > seeing the 15 years before: Backward compatibilty has hobbled us.

              Indeed, I think it has. The Mac OS used to use resource forks and type attributes
              which were beautiful. Now we have descended to the level of extensions and magic
              numbers like everyone else. The filesystem supports resource forks and named
              forks, but nobody's really using them yet--indeed, if anything, at the moment they
              add confusion because some parts of the OS detect file types that way rather than
              by extension, when available, so it's hard to know what's going on.

              Ben.




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            • Ben Schmidt
              ... And that sad story told, I do agree with the other posters who don t think this has much use in Vim. I think to have some kind of consistency, probably an
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 4, 2008
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                Ben Schmidt wrote:
                >> Ahh, indeed, there is the problem and the reason why computing has not
                >> advanced as much in the last 15 years as one would have expected
                >> seeing the 15 years before: Backward compatibilty has hobbled us.
                >
                > Indeed, I think it has. The Mac OS used to use resource forks and type attributes
                > which were beautiful. Now we have descended to the level of extensions and magic
                > numbers like everyone else. The filesystem supports resource forks and named
                > forks, but nobody's really using them yet--indeed, if anything, at the moment they
                > add confusion because some parts of the OS detect file types that way rather than
                > by extension, when available, so it's hard to know what's going on.

                And that sad story told, I do agree with the other posters who don't think this
                has much use in Vim. I think to have some kind of consistency, probably an OS or
                other fairly central component needs to lead the way, not a text editor.

                Ben.




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              • krischik
                ... No, a EA aware wget would request the EA s already attached to the file from an EA aware ftp server - the same way it request file permissions today when
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 5, 2008
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                  On 4 Feb., 23:09, "Matt Wozniski" <m...@...> wrote:
                  > On Feb 4, 2008 4:29 PM, krischik wrote:
                  >
                  > > On 4 Feb., 21:10, "Matt Wozniski" wrote:
                  >
                  > > > While this would be nice, it would require support code from every
                  > > > application you have. It may only be 6 lines, but 6 lines * 5000
                  > > > binaries is much more code than is in vim for line ending detection.
                  >
                  > > But the other 5000 applications need detection as well. I did mention
                  > > webserver and browser getting detection wrong. konquror/nautilus/
                  > > explorer needs detection and far more complex then vim. And sure OS/2
                  > > needed detection. But there you could always overwrite faulty detected
                  > > value by manualy correcting the EA's.
                  >
                  > I'm not sure that most other apps do need detection. wget, for
                  > instance, doesn't have to care what line endings the data it saves
                  > has. But, for what you want, it would have to detect and save it,
                  > even though it doesn't use it.

                  No, a EA aware wget would request the EA's already attached to the
                  file from an EA aware ftp server - the same way it request file
                  permissions today when used with "--preserve-permissions".

                  > Shell redirection has no idea what's
                  > going through it, so it has no way to possibly say what Content-type
                  > it is... or dd...

                  That's true.

                  > or tar extracting files that were created on a
                  > filesystem that didn't track extended attributes...

                  Well, you might like to ask the authors - xattr and acl support has
                  been added to tar last year:

                  http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/07/02/tips-from-an-rhce-tar-vs-star-the-battle-of-xattrs/

                  > The issue isn't waiting for it to catch on, it's that until it's
                  > universally available it only increases the amount of code and
                  > maintenance burden.

                  You are proving my point: backward compatibility has hobbled software
                  development.

                  > Things like marking the content encoding might be
                  > more useful, but still, not good to work with... If, for example, you
                  > had a file "test.txt" encoded in UTF-16 and with extended attributes
                  > marking it as such, and your locale is set to use UTF-8, what would
                  > you expect the result of "cp test.txt test2.txt" to be?

                  I would use "cp --archive test.txt test2.txt" in which case the EA's
                  are copied as well. At least on SuSE Linux 9.2 onwards. And of course
                  the file would still be UTF-16 - after all it's "copy" not "convert".

                  Without meaning offence: You should read up a little on the subject as
                  you knowledge is not up to date.

                  > What about
                  > "cat text.txt >text2.txt"? If you expect those two commands to have
                  > the same effect, I don't see how it can be done without changes to cp
                  > (mark attrs on dest), cat (mark attrs on stdout), and the kernel
                  > itself (allow extended attributes on streams).

                  I do not expect that cat and cp behave the same. For the simple reason
                  that they never have behaved the same: cp has options like "--
                  preserve" and "--archive" - cat has not. Even today using cat to copy
                  a file will mean that you loose the all the meta informations
                  attached.

                  > a shell that knows how to get/set
                  > these attributes (and which it needs to set),

                  Done: see setfattr and getfattr.

                  > and a copy of the
                  > coreutils that are aware of the changes (so that "cp file1 file2"
                  > creates file2 with the attrs of file1, not the defaults),

                  Done: GNU cp will do that if --archive is used.

                  > On a quick glance, I
                  > see absolutely no way to do this properly without support from the OS.

                  While I countered most of your arguments - you are absolutely right
                  here. Only I have once used an operating system (OS/2) which did
                  exactly that - hence my frustration.

                  Martin
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                • krischik
                  ... I never meant that - I was just countering the claim that named forks are useless. And I only used Vim as an example of where Vim would have been simpler
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 5, 2008
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                    On 5 Feb., 00:12, Ben Schmidt <mail_ben_schm...@...> wrote:

                    > And that sad story told, I do agree with the other posters who don't think this
                    > has much use in Vim. I think to have some kind of consistency, probably an OS or
                    > other fairly central component needs to lead the way, not a text editor.

                    I never meant that - I was just countering the claim that "named
                    forks" are useless. And I only used Vim as an example of where Vim
                    would have been simpler to implement - on an operating system which
                    properly supports "type attributes".

                    Sad that everybody else only sees only hurdles and risks of change and
                    not the chances and the risk of no-change.

                    And yes: there is a rist of no-change!

                    The risk of an ever more complex software world with ever more complex
                    solutions which could be done much easier if one would have done it
                    right from the beginning.

                    And the risk of ever more exploits of those complex solutions.

                    Martin
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                  • Tony Mechelynck
                    krischik wrote: [...] ... [...] ... [...] Hmm... According to info cp (on my openSUSE 10.3 system), -a or --archive is equivalent to -dpPR, which means: -d
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 5, 2008
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                      krischik wrote:
                      [...]
                      > I would use "cp --archive test.txt test2.txt" in which case the EA's
                      > are copied as well. At least on SuSE Linux 9.2 onwards. And of course
                      > the file would still be UTF-16 - after all it's "copy" not "convert".
                      >
                      > Without meaning offence: You should read up a little on the subject as
                      > you knowledge is not up to date.
                      [...]
                      > Done: GNU cp will do that if --archive is used.
                      [...]

                      Hmm... According to "info cp" (on my openSUSE 10.3 system), -a or --archive is
                      equivalent to -dpPR, which means:

                      -d copy symlinks as symlinks and preserve hardlinks between sources in the copies
                      -p preserve attributes. If not specifying which attributes, the default is:
                      mode,ownership,timestamps (xattrs must be specified explicitly to be included)
                      -P copy symlinks as symlinks (sic)
                      -R copy directories recursively


                      Best regards,
                      Tony.
                      --
                      "She said, `I know you ... you cannot sing'. I said, `That's nothing,
                      you should hear me play piano.'"
                      -- Morrisey


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                    • krischik
                      On 5 Feb., 11:37, Tony Mechelynck ... Well I did not read the manual but copied a file with xattr (Samba creates them at mass)
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 5, 2008
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                        On 5 Feb., 11:37, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechely...@...>
                        wrote:
                        > krischik wrote:
                        >
                        > [...]> I would use "cp --archive test.txt test2.txt" in which case the EA's
                        > > are copied as well. At least on SuSE Linux 9.2 onwards. And of course
                        > > the file would still be UTF-16 - after all it's "copy" not "convert".
                        >
                        > > Without meaning offence: You should read up a little on the subject as
                        > > you knowledge is not up to date.
                        > [...]
                        > > Done: GNU cp will do that if --archive is used.
                        >
                        > [...]
                        >
                        > Hmm... According to "info cp" (on my openSUSE 10.3 system), -a or --archive is
                        > equivalent to -dpPR, which means:
                        >
                        > -d copy symlinks as symlinks and preserve hardlinks between sources in the copies
                        > -p preserve attributes. If not specifying which attributes, the default is:
                        > mode,ownership,timestamps (xattrs must be specified explicitly to be included)
                        > -P copy symlinks as symlinks (sic)
                        > -R copy directories recursively

                        Well I did not read the manual but copied a file with xattr (Samba
                        creates them at mass) and saw what happened. But that was on a fairly
                        old SuSE 9.2. I check SuSE 10.3 when I am home.

                        Martin


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                      • Paul LeoNerd Evans
                        On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 02:25:26 -0800 (PST) ... I have to agree with krischik here. At University, I once got stuck in a problem with some of the other
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 5, 2008
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                          On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 02:25:26 -0800 (PST)
                          krischik <krischik@...> wrote:

                          > Sad that everybody else only sees only hurdles and risks of change and
                          > not the chances and the risk of no-change.
                          >
                          > And yes: there is a rist of no-change!

                          I have to agree with krischik here. At University, I once got stuck in a
                          problem with some of the other mathematicians, who were all of the
                          opinion that "Yes, I'll have tea if you're having tea". Problem was,
                          nobody actually had tea. It took one of the lawyers to stand up and say
                          "Alright then, I'll have tea." Then all the mathmos jumped ship.

                          An amusing story perhaps, but it proves the point. In all things like
                          this, someone needs to jump first. Does it really matter who that is, as
                          long as someone does?

                          It's been a bone of contention of mine for years, the way modified keys
                          work in terminals. Five years ago XTerm gained ways to express generic
                          modified keys (e.g. Ctrl-Shift-Left). Only recently did any application,
                          such as Vim, start to understand those. It's always been a "you jump,
                          I'll jump" situation - why should the terminal send sequences nobody
                          would understand, or why should any application look for sequences nobody
                          would send? Someone has to go first.

                          Back to the subject of EAs - someone already has gone first. The GNU
                          fileutils already support EAs. As does tar. I also know that the lighttpd
                          webserver uses them by default, only falling back on filename-based
                          detection if the file doesn't have a "Content-Type" EA.

                          It'd be lovely if Vim could set those for it.

                          --
                          Paul "LeoNerd" Evans

                          leonerd@...
                          ICQ# 4135350 | Registered Linux# 179460
                          http://www.leonerd.org.uk/
                        • krischik
                          ... Funny as you say - on my research for my little rants here (yes I do research before I rant) I found out that Apache too uses EA s when to store and detect
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 5, 2008
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                            On 5 Feb., 12:55, Paul LeoNerd Evans <leon...@...> wrote:

                            > I also know that the lighttpd
                            > webserver uses them by default, only falling back on filename-based
                            > detection if the file doesn't have a "Content-Type" EA.

                            Funny as you say - on my research for my little rants here (yes I do
                            research before I rant) I found out that Apache too uses EA's when to
                            store and detect file types.

                            And then there is Samba which uses "user.DOSATTRIB" to store dos
                            attributes.

                            > It'd be lovely if Vim could set those for it.

                            That would be a nice indeed. - Bram - are you still with us?

                            Martin
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                          • Alexei Alexandrov
                            ... Oh, thanks - this is a good learning for me. It s a shame I never heard of this before. ... Such attributes would be useful, yes. But it s backward
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 5, 2008
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                              krischik wrote:
                              >
                              > Open a console and type "man 5 attr"? Or look here:
                              >
                              > http://linux.die.net/man/5/attr
                              >
                              >
                              > No it has nothing to do with Linux. FreeBSD, Solaris and Mac OS X
                              > support extended attributes as well. See:
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_file_attributes
                              >
                              > Quote Wikipedia: "In Linux, the ext2, ext3, ext4, JFS, ReiserFS and
                              > XFS filesystems support extended attributes (abbreviated xattr) if the
                              > libattr feature is enabled in the kernel configuration. "

                              Oh, thanks - this is a good learning for me. It's a shame I never heard
                              of this before.

                              >
                              > On the other hand use of extended attributes could solve a problem
                              > with 5 lines of code where solving the same problem without could cost
                              > you 50. Determine file types, text file line endings and text file
                              > encoding come to my mind here. Ask Bram how many line of code he
                              > needed in Vim to determine these three informations. With consequent
                              > use of xattribs it would have been 6 lines:
                              >
                              > [...]
                              >
                              > And best of all: you know before you open the file. AFAIK Bram need to
                              > close and reopen files in unfortunate combinations.
                              >

                              Such attributes would be useful, yes. But it's backward compatibility
                              that is the root of all evil and you also mentioned this in a sibling
                              post. So I'm not sure these things will become popular unless there is a
                              brand new OS appears which doesn't have to be compatible with anything
                              and it wins the market.

                              Also, the named attributes story doesn't have to do much with numbered
                              NTFS data streams, does it? It might be similar but numbers are too far
                              from string identifier convenience. Which brings me back to my original
                              thought - the design and implementation of data streams in NTFS are useless.

                              --
                              Alexei Alexandrov


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                            • krischik
                              On 5 Feb., 22:54, Alexei Alexandrov ... I fear you missed something - since NTFS v3.0 named forks are supported. They are called
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                On 5 Feb., 22:54, Alexei Alexandrov <alexei.alexand...@...>
                                wrote:

                                > Also, the named attributes story doesn't have to do much with numbered
                                > NTFS data streams, does it?

                                I fear you missed something - since NTFS v3.0 named forks are
                                supported. They are called "Alternate data streams". See

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS#Features

                                Martin
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                              • Bram Moolenaar
                                ... Vim doesn t detect the situation that you are editing an info stream directly. ... The writebackup option matters too. ... Detecting the colon should be
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 6, 2008
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                                  Alex Jakushev wrote:

                                  > On 1/31/08, Bram Moolenaar <Bram@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Try setting the 'backupcopy' option to "yes".
                                  >
                                  > This worked, but then it raises another question. Previous value
                                  > of the 'backupcopy' option was auto, which means yes or no, which
                                  > works best. Why didn't it choose yes, if no fails?

                                  Vim doesn't detect the situation that you are editing an info stream
                                  directly.

                                  > Also, in my configuration, backup option is no. Theoretically, I should
                                  > not bother with all this stuff at all? I use Vim7.1 last official release.

                                  The 'writebackup' option matters too.

                                  > > I thought Vim did copy the streams, but I suppose this doesn't work when
                                  > > you edit one specific stream. If you want to look at it: function
                                  > > copy_infostreams() in src/os_win32.c
                                  >
                                  > This may take a while for me to set up everything...
                                  >
                                  > But i have an idea that the problem is with file names.
                                  > When you open some specific stream, vim considers the stream name as
                                  > filename, and filename as subfolder. The stream name is separated from file
                                  > name with a colon (c:\path\foo.txt:bar), and the same colon is used to
                                  > separate drive letter. Maybe this causes some confusion?

                                  Detecting the colon should be simple. When not using NTFS the file name
                                  would be illegal. I'll add a todo item for this. But it would be nice
                                  if someone can make a patch for it.

                                  > Also, VIM converts dots in file name to underscores sometimes, when
                                  > streams are specified.

                                  I haven't seen this. Perhaps it's because the long file name is
                                  converted to a 8.3 file name? Can you give a reproducable example?

                                  > > NTFS streams are mostly restricted to MS-Windows applications, and
                                  > > rarely used. I don't think it's a good idea to support them in Vim
                                  > > directly.
                                  >
                                  > I understand it, but vim has specific windows functionality anyway.
                                  > But of course it is easy for me to suggest this and that :)

                                  I always put more effort in functionality that works everywhere. And to
                                  keep programs portable rare features should be avoided, especially when
                                  they don't add something essential for the end user. MS thinks
                                  otherwise: They want programs to only run on MS-Windows. Portability
                                  means they might lose customers. Some Linux developers also go in this
                                  direction, they don't care about MS-Windows users. I care for everybody
                                  :-).

                                  --
                                  The process for understanding customers primarily involves sitting around with
                                  other marketing people and talking about what you would to if you were dumb
                                  enough to be a customer.
                                  (Scott Adams - The Dilbert principle)

                                  /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                                  /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                                  \\\ download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
                                  \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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                                • Alexei Alexandrov
                                  ... Oops, yep, I have a lot of stuff to catch up with. -- Alexei Alexandrov --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 6, 2008
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                                    krischik wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I fear you missed something - since NTFS v3.0 named forks are
                                    > supported. They are called "Alternate data streams".
                                    >

                                    Oops, yep, I have a lot of stuff to catch up with.

                                    --
                                    Alexei Alexandrov


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