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Re: "window tabs" and "frames/pages"

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  • Benji Fisher
    ... While discussing design issues for tabs, I think we should also think about multiple gwindows (that is, windows in the GUI sense) for gvim. From the
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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      On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 02:44:26PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
      >
      > At first there will be no local-to-tab options. It will make things
      > quite complicated, thus hopefully we can avoid them.
      >
      > Note that it's very easy to come up with all kinds of extra things once
      > you have tabs. But I really want to keep the number of options and
      > commands to a minimum. We have more than enough of them already!

      While discussing design issues for tabs, I think we should also
      think about multiple gwindows (that is, windows in the GUI sense) for
      gvim. From the user's point of view, a separate gwindow is a lot like a
      separate tab that is displayed differently. A lot of the same issues
      come up: should :windo and :bufdo act on the current tab/gwindow or on
      all of them; which options should, by default, stick with a single
      tab/gwindow; is there a separate command history for each tab/gwindow;
      etc.

      If you add up the votes for tabs and multiple gwindows on
      http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php
      (which is not to say that this is actually justified) you get the second
      most popular RFE. I am not suggesting that we tackle both right now,
      just that we pay attention to common issues.

      --Benji Fisher
    • A. J. Mechelynck
      ... At the moment, multiple gwindows exist in the form of multiple instances of gvim (or didn t I understand what you meant by gwindows?). (Some programs, like
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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        Benji Fisher wrote:
        > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 02:44:26PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
        >> At first there will be no local-to-tab options. It will make things
        >> quite complicated, thus hopefully we can avoid them.
        >>
        >> Note that it's very easy to come up with all kinds of extra things once
        >> you have tabs. But I really want to keep the number of options and
        >> commands to a minimum. We have more than enough of them already!
        >
        > While discussing design issues for tabs, I think we should also
        > think about multiple gwindows (that is, windows in the GUI sense) for
        > gvim. From the user's point of view, a separate gwindow is a lot like a
        > separate tab that is displayed differently. A lot of the same issues
        > come up: should :windo and :bufdo act on the current tab/gwindow or on
        > all of them; which options should, by default, stick with a single
        > tab/gwindow; is there a separate command history for each tab/gwindow;
        > etc.
        >
        > If you add up the votes for tabs and multiple gwindows on
        > http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php
        > (which is not to say that this is actually justified) you get the second
        > most popular RFE. I am not suggesting that we tackle both right now,
        > just that we pay attention to common issues.
        >
        > --Benji Fisher
        >
        >
        >

        At the moment, multiple gwindows exist in the form of multiple instances
        of gvim (or didn't I understand what you meant by gwindows?). (Some
        programs, like Firefox, will open a different window or tab but not a
        different instance of the executable each time they are invoked).

        Settings common to all gwindows exist in the form of a common vimrc.
        However, changing settings (even global settings like 'encoding' and
        'guifont') in one gwindow doesn't carry over to the other ones. This is
        very important to me: I need to be able to edit several files with ":set
        enc=latin1 gfn=Lucida_Console:h8:cDEFAULT" (in Latin-only text, but
        possibly in languages like French or German, which use many diacritics
        which English sees only in foreign words) in one gvim, a couple more
        with ":set enc=utf8 gfn=Courier_New:h12:cDEFAULT" in another (with Latin
        and Arabic text), and maybe still one or two additional files with ":set
        enc=utf8 gfn=MingLiU:h16:cDEFAULT" in a third one (with Latin and
        Chinese text). I wouldn't want gvim to force such settings to carry over
        from one GUI to the next (as might happen if all invocations were
        referred to a single instance of the executable).


        Best regards,
        Tony.
      • Milan Vancura
        ... As I think about tabs in Firefox or Opera, especialy after I have installed the nice extension Duplicate Tab which can also merge more windows to one, I
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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          > Note that it's very easy to come up with all kinds of extra things once
          > you have tabs. But I really want to keep the number of options and
          > commands to a minimum. We have more than enough of them already!

          As I think about tabs in Firefox or Opera, especialy after I have installed the
          nice extension Duplicate Tab which can also merge more windows to one, I feel
          the differencies between windows and tabs are only these:

          1. all tabs have the same window size
          2. they are displayed at the same area on the screen, only one is visible at
          every time
          3. you have only one record in a system window list for the whole set of tabs,
          all manipulations with an order of tabs etc. is done in the "parent window",
          not in the system itself

          And that's all. If you change window-local property, it will be usualy changed
          in one tab only - there are specialy mentioned exceptions when not (for example
          window size :-) ).

          If I look at these three points, I think normal window splitting with some
          setting to show only of them at each time is very near to "tabs" - all you need
          to full feeling of (Firefox) tabs is to write names of all windows/tabs to
          status line. That's all.

          Am I missed something? Or do you plan vim tabs will do something more than tabs
          in Opera, Firefox, KDE shell Konsole etc. ?

          Milan Vancura
        • mzyzik@gmail.com
          ... The reason to always show tabs is the same as the reason to always show the status line. I personally set laststatus = 2. It s just a preference. I was
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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            > > 3. Have something similar to 'laststatus', but call it 'framestatus',
            > > accepting these values: 0 (never), 1 (>2 frames), and 2 (always). 0
            > > means the tabs are hidden. 1 means they appear like the "status line" if
            > > there are two or more frames; and the line can be at the top of vim. 2
            > > means these tabs are always visible.
            >
            > Is there a reason to always show tabs? Firefox uses tabs quite nicely,
            > and it doesn't show tabs until there is more than one page. Appears to
            > work just fine.
            >

            The reason to always show tabs is the same as the reason to always show the status
            line. I personally set laststatus = 2. It's just a preference. I was
            under the impression that it would be quite easy to implement; and
            consistency-wise, it's a plus. In firefox and vim, I would probably show
            tabs when there's more than one page; yet still I think something like
            framestatus is important. Firefox does have the option to change the
            behavior. Maybe it "works fine" because everyone is configuring it :) ??

            > I don't want to hide the tabs, because you can't see what you are doing.
            > It's too easy to forget that you have windows that you are currently not
            > seeing.

            When hiding the laststatus, I can't see the filename I'm working with
            unless I edit 'rulerformat', yet I don't. Who cares if you forget what
            windows you have. At least you won't forget which buffers you have open.
            Since :buffers acts like :ls; you could have :frames act like an :ls for
            frames. What I don't like about "pages" is that :pclose is already for
            the preview window. You could do :pgclose, but it's ugly.

            --Matt Zyzik
          • mzyzik@gmail.com
            ... I actually never thought of this. It s the behavior that emacs has. When in gui mode, new windows are created for frames; and they re not when in console
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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              > While discussing design issues for tabs, I think we should also
              > think about multiple gwindows (that is, windows in the GUI sense) for
              > gvim. From the user's point of view, a separate gwindow is a lot like a
              > separate tab that is displayed differently. A lot of the same issues
              > come up: should :windo and :bufdo act on the current tab/gwindow or on
              > all of them; which options should, by default, stick with a single
              > tab/gwindow; is there a separate command history for each tab/gwindow;
              > etc.
              >
              > If you add up the votes for tabs and multiple gwindows on
              > http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php
              > (which is not to say that this is actually justified) you get the second
              > most popular RFE. I am not suggesting that we tackle both right now,
              > just that we pay attention to common issues.
              >
              > --Benji Fisher

              I actually never thought of this. It's the behavior that emacs has. When
              in gui mode, new windows are created for frames; and they're not when in
              console mode.
              I personally don't need the "multiple gwindows" because if I have enough
              room on my screen for another window, I would rather just maximize vim
              and split vertically. But this is a good thought; maybe others would
              want it.
            • mzyzik@gmail.com
              You are missing something. File editing is different than browsing. You might need to see two files at the same time when editing a third. You might want to
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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                You are missing something. File editing is different than browsing. You
                might need to see two files at the same time when editing a third. You
                might want to then create a new frame temporarily to browse through one
                file, then switch back to the previous window layout. And if you are
                working on a complicated project, you might want to have multiple window
                layouts, and switch back and forth between them.

                --Matt

                On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 04:22:50PM +0100, Milan Vancura wrote:
                > > Note that it's very easy to come up with all kinds of extra things once
                > > you have tabs. But I really want to keep the number of options and
                > > commands to a minimum. We have more than enough of them already!
                >
                > As I think about tabs in Firefox or Opera, especialy after I have installed the
                > nice extension Duplicate Tab which can also merge more windows to one, I feel
                > the differencies between windows and tabs are only these:
                >
                > 1. all tabs have the same window size
                > 2. they are displayed at the same area on the screen, only one is visible at
                > every time
                > 3. you have only one record in a system window list for the whole set of tabs,
                > all manipulations with an order of tabs etc. is done in the "parent window",
                > not in the system itself
                >
                > And that's all. If you change window-local property, it will be usualy changed
                > in one tab only - there are specialy mentioned exceptions when not (for example
                > window size :-) ).
                >
                > If I look at these three points, I think normal window splitting with some
                > setting to show only of them at each time is very near to "tabs" - all you need
                > to full feeling of (Firefox) tabs is to write names of all windows/tabs to
                > status line. That's all.
                >
                > Am I missed something? Or do you plan vim tabs will do something more than tabs
                > in Opera, Firefox, KDE shell Konsole etc. ?
                >
                > Milan Vancura
              • Bram Moolenaar
                ... There is one important difference: with multiple tabs you still have only one command line. With multiple toplevel windows you will have multiple command
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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                  Benji Fisher wrote:

                  > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 02:44:26PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                  > >
                  > > At first there will be no local-to-tab options. It will make things
                  > > quite complicated, thus hopefully we can avoid them.
                  > >
                  > > Note that it's very easy to come up with all kinds of extra things once
                  > > you have tabs. But I really want to keep the number of options and
                  > > commands to a minimum. We have more than enough of them already!
                  >
                  > While discussing design issues for tabs, I think we should also
                  > think about multiple gwindows (that is, windows in the GUI sense) for
                  > gvim. From the user's point of view, a separate gwindow is a lot like a
                  > separate tab that is displayed differently. A lot of the same issues
                  > come up: should :windo and :bufdo act on the current tab/gwindow or on
                  > all of them; which options should, by default, stick with a single
                  > tab/gwindow; is there a separate command history for each tab/gwindow;
                  > etc.
                  >
                  > If you add up the votes for tabs and multiple gwindows on
                  > http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php
                  > (which is not to say that this is actually justified) you get the second
                  > most popular RFE. I am not suggesting that we tackle both right now,
                  > just that we pay attention to common issues.

                  There is one important difference: with multiple tabs you still have
                  only one command line. With multiple toplevel windows you will have
                  multiple command lines. That creates a lot of issues that aren't easy
                  to tackle... Also, having multiple Visual areas, multiple states, etc.
                  It's probably easier to run gvim twice and have them communicate.

                  --
                  hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                  252. You vote for foreign officials.

                  /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                  /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                  \\\ download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
                  \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://www.ICCF.nl ///
                • Mikolaj Machowski
                  Dnia pi±tek, 3 lutego 2006 15:31, Benji Fisher napisa³: Personally I think it would be nice if there could be possibility to treat all separate windows (or
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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                    Dnia piątek, 3 lutego 2006 15:31, Benji Fisher napisał:

                    Personally I think it would be nice if there could be possibility to
                    treat all separate windows (or chosen subset of them) as one session.
                    Especially to have one common list of buffers and auto switching
                    between windows with :buffer command.

                    > If you add up the votes for tabs and multiple gwindows on
                    > http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php

                    Yep. Time to renew my votes :)

                    m.
                  • Stefano Zacchiroli
                    ... Agreed, I often work with multiple gvim windows for instance. But an easy way to start up another gvim from one in execution would be a real plus. Also, in
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 4, 2006
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                      On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:54:18PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                      > to tackle... Also, having multiple Visual areas, multiple states, etc.
                      > It's probably easier to run gvim twice and have them communicate.

                      Agreed, I often work with multiple gvim windows for instance.
                      But an easy way to start up another gvim from one in execution would be
                      a real plus.

                      Also, in such a way of working, a (optional) feature like: start a new
                      gvim with the current set of windows/tabs/buffer would be valuable.

                      Just my 0.02 EUR.
                      Cheers.

                      --
                      Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy
                      zack@{cs.unibo.it,debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
                      If there's any real truth it's that the entire multidimensional infinity
                      of the Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs. -!-
                    • Benji Fisher
                      ... Both of these can be implemented as user-defined commands/maps/menus. Assuming that gvim is in your path, ... will start up a new instance. If you want
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 4, 2006
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                        On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 10:38:15AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
                        > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:54:18PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                        > > to tackle... Also, having multiple Visual areas, multiple states, etc.
                        > > It's probably easier to run gvim twice and have them communicate.
                        >
                        > Agreed, I often work with multiple gvim windows for instance.
                        > But an easy way to start up another gvim from one in execution would be
                        > a real plus.
                        >
                        > Also, in such a way of working, a (optional) feature like: start a new
                        > gvim with the current set of windows/tabs/buffer would be valuable.
                        >
                        > Just my 0.02 EUR.
                        > Cheers.

                        Both of these can be implemented as user-defined
                        commands/maps/menus. Assuming that gvim is in your path,

                        :!gvim

                        will start up a new instance. If you want the current windows and
                        buffers, then

                        :mksession <tempfile>
                        :gvim -S <tempfile>

                        will do.

                        The problem is that you will then get a bunch of warning messages,
                        telling you that the buffers are all being edited already: edit
                        read-only, edit anyway, recover, or quit? With multiple tabs or with
                        multiple gwindows, you would not want this to happen: there is only one
                        running gvim, and it has one copy of each buffer no matter how many
                        windows/tabs/gwindows are viewing it.

                        BTW, others have asked why you would ever want to hide the tabs if
                        there are multiple tabs open. Here is one scenario: I am writing a
                        script, and I prefer to use :s rather than substitute(). I would like
                        to open a temporary buffer. If I can do this in a hidden tab, then I do
                        not have to worry about messing up the current view. This also argues
                        for the option of having separate command and search histories for each
                        tab.

                        --Benji Fisher
                      • Johnny Blaze
                        ... Why not make tabs a display option for split windows? Something like: set tabs then when you do a :sball or :new, you get tabs instead of windows... set
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 5, 2006
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                          On 2/4/06, Benji Fisher <benji@...> wrote:
                          > On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 10:38:15AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
                          > > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:54:18PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                          > > > to tackle... Also, having multiple Visual areas, multiple states, etc.
                          > > > It's probably easier to run gvim twice and have them communicate.
                          > >
                          > > Agreed, I often work with multiple gvim windows for instance.
                          > > But an easy way to start up another gvim from one in execution would be
                          > > a real plus.
                          > >
                          > > Also, in such a way of working, a (optional) feature like: start a new
                          > > gvim with the current set of windows/tabs/buffer would be valuable.
                          > >
                          > > Just my 0.02 EUR.
                          > > Cheers.
                          >
                          > Both of these can be implemented as user-defined
                          > commands/maps/menus. Assuming that gvim is in your path,
                          >
                          > :!gvim
                          >
                          > will start up a new instance. If you want the current windows and
                          > buffers, then
                          >
                          > :mksession <tempfile>
                          > :gvim -S <tempfile>
                          >
                          > will do.
                          >
                          > The problem is that you will then get a bunch of warning messages,
                          > telling you that the buffers are all being edited already: edit
                          > read-only, edit anyway, recover, or quit? With multiple tabs or with
                          > multiple gwindows, you would not want this to happen: there is only one
                          > running gvim, and it has one copy of each buffer no matter how many
                          > windows/tabs/gwindows are viewing it.
                          >
                          > BTW, others have asked why you would ever want to hide the tabs if
                          > there are multiple tabs open. Here is one scenario: I am writing a
                          > script, and I prefer to use :s rather than substitute(). I would like
                          > to open a temporary buffer. If I can do this in a hidden tab, then I do
                          > not have to worry about messing up the current view. This also argues
                          > for the option of having separate command and search histories for each
                          > tab.
                          >
                          > --Benji Fisher
                          >

                          Why not make tabs a display option for split windows? Something like:

                          set tabs

                          then when you do a :sball or :new, you get tabs instead of windows...

                          set notabs

                          then when you do a :sball or :new, you get the current behavior with
                          out any kind of tab-line.


                          --

                          . o O pyromancer O o .
                        • A. J. Mechelynck
                          ... Hello Johnny. Without changing anything in the current versions of ... Only the current buffer s contents (the current tab s, if you will) will be visible,
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 5, 2006
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                            Johnny Blaze wrote:
                            > On 2/4/06, Benji Fisher <benji@...> wrote:
                            >> On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 10:38:15AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
                            >>> On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:54:18PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                            >>>> to tackle... Also, having multiple Visual areas, multiple states, etc.
                            >>>> It's probably easier to run gvim twice and have them communicate.
                            >>> Agreed, I often work with multiple gvim windows for instance.
                            >>> But an easy way to start up another gvim from one in execution would be
                            >>> a real plus.
                            >>>
                            >>> Also, in such a way of working, a (optional) feature like: start a new
                            >>> gvim with the current set of windows/tabs/buffer would be valuable.
                            >>>
                            >>> Just my 0.02 EUR.
                            >>> Cheers.
                            >> Both of these can be implemented as user-defined
                            >> commands/maps/menus. Assuming that gvim is in your path,
                            >>
                            >> :!gvim
                            >>
                            >> will start up a new instance. If you want the current windows and
                            >> buffers, then
                            >>
                            >> :mksession <tempfile>
                            >> :gvim -S <tempfile>
                            >>
                            >> will do.
                            >>
                            >> The problem is that you will then get a bunch of warning messages,
                            >> telling you that the buffers are all being edited already: edit
                            >> read-only, edit anyway, recover, or quit? With multiple tabs or with
                            >> multiple gwindows, you would not want this to happen: there is only one
                            >> running gvim, and it has one copy of each buffer no matter how many
                            >> windows/tabs/gwindows are viewing it.
                            >>
                            >> BTW, others have asked why you would ever want to hide the tabs if
                            >> there are multiple tabs open. Here is one scenario: I am writing a
                            >> script, and I prefer to use :s rather than substitute(). I would like
                            >> to open a temporary buffer. If I can do this in a hidden tab, then I do
                            >> not have to worry about messing up the current view. This also argues
                            >> for the option of having separate command and search histories for each
                            >> tab.
                            >>
                            >> --Benji Fisher
                            >>
                            >
                            > Why not make tabs a display option for split windows? Something like:
                            >
                            > set tabs
                            >
                            > then when you do a :sball or :new, you get tabs instead of windows...
                            >
                            > set notabs
                            >
                            > then when you do a :sball or :new, you get the current behavior with
                            > out any kind of tab-line.
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            >
                            > . o O pyromancer O o .

                            Hello Johnny. Without changing anything in the current versions of
                            (g)vim, you can use "Rolodex Vim", as follows:

                            :set noequalalways winminheight=0 winheight=99999

                            or if you're lazy ;-) :

                            :set noea wmh=0 wh=999

                            Only the current buffer's contents (the current tab's, if you will) will
                            be visible, and all other "horizontally split windows" will be reduced
                            to a status line each and nothing else (displaying the corresponding
                            filename). Think of these status lines (above and below the active tab
                            contents) as colored tabs (or black with white print) on the edges of
                            the pages of a Rolodex before and after the current one. Click on a
                            "tab" to open it, or use {number}^Ww to open the nth one, ^Ww with no
                            number for the next one, ^WW for the previous one (in the two latter
                            cases, in round-robin fashion).


                            Best regards,
                            Tony.
                          • mzyzik@gmail.com
                            ... It s easier and better and more logical just to create new commands for creating new frames. Why would someone want to change tabs/notabs on the fly when
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 5, 2006
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                              > Why not make tabs a display option for split windows? Something like:
                              >
                              > set tabs
                              >
                              > then when you do a :sball or :new, you get tabs instead of windows...
                              >
                              > set notabs
                              >
                              > then when you do a :sball or :new, you get the current behavior with
                              > out any kind of tab-line.
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              >
                              > . o O pyromancer O o .

                              It's easier and better and more logical just to create new commands
                              for creating new frames.
                              Why would someone want to change tabs/notabs on the fly when they can
                              just have a command like :frall or :fnew?

                              --Matt
                            • Gautam Iyer
                              ... Well for me the real plus of having multiple windows is to detach tabs! Would that be easy to implement if you have multiple gvim instances
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 5, 2006
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                                On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 10:38:15AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

                                > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:54:18PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                                >
                                > > to tackle... Also, having multiple Visual areas, multiple states, etc.
                                > > It's probably easier to run gvim twice and have them communicate.
                                >
                                > Agreed, I often work with multiple gvim windows for instance.
                                > But an easy way to start up another gvim from one in execution would be
                                > a real plus.

                                Well for me the real plus of having multiple windows is to "detach"
                                tabs! Would that be easy to implement if you have multiple gvim
                                instances communicating?

                                If you do manage to do this with multiple gvim instances communicating,
                                then I'm hoping that tabs (and buffers) can be somehow magically moved
                                between console vim instances (which is all I use anyway!).

                                But yes, I'm all for multiple windows and (detachable) tabs!

                                :)

                                GI

                                --
                                Microsoft broke Volkswagen's world record: Volkswagen only made 22
                                million bugs!
                              • Zdenek Sekera
                                ... And mine too!
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Mikolaj Machowski [mailto:mikmach@...]
                                  > Sent: 03 February 2006 20:48
                                  > To: vim-dev@...
                                  > Subject: Re: "window tabs" and "frames/pages"
                                  >
                                  > Dnia piątek, 3 lutego 2006 15:31, Benji Fisher napisał:
                                  >
                                  > Personally I think it would be nice if there could be possibility to
                                  > treat all separate windows (or chosen subset of them) as one session.
                                  > Especially to have one common list of buffers and auto switching
                                  > between windows with :buffer command.
                                  >
                                  > > If you add up the votes for tabs and multiple gwindows on
                                  > > http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php
                                  >
                                  > Yep. Time to renew my votes :)

                                  And mine too!

                                  ---Zdenek
                                • Benji Fisher
                                  ... Good point: if multiple windows are implemented by having more communication between different instances of vim, there is no need to insist on gvim.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                    On Sun, Feb 05, 2006 at 03:30:30PM -0600, Gautam Iyer wrote:
                                    > On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 10:38:15AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:54:18PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > to tackle... Also, having multiple Visual areas, multiple states, etc.
                                    > > > It's probably easier to run gvim twice and have them communicate.
                                    > >
                                    > > Agreed, I often work with multiple gvim windows for instance.
                                    > > But an easy way to start up another gvim from one in execution would be
                                    > > a real plus.
                                    >
                                    > Well for me the real plus of having multiple windows is to "detach"
                                    > tabs! Would that be easy to implement if you have multiple gvim
                                    > instances communicating?
                                    >
                                    > If you do manage to do this with multiple gvim instances communicating,
                                    > then I'm hoping that tabs (and buffers) can be somehow magically moved
                                    > between console vim instances (which is all I use anyway!).
                                    >
                                    > But yes, I'm all for multiple windows and (detachable) tabs!

                                    Good point: if multiple windows are implemented by having more
                                    communication between different instances of vim, there is no need to
                                    insist on gvim.

                                    Design issues: this would force a lot of decisions on us. The two
                                    instances of vim would have separate histories (search, command-line,
                                    jumps, etc.); global options changed in one would not affect the other;
                                    new mappings, commands, etc. defined in one would not affect the other.
                                    Is this what we want? It should be possible to do the equivalent of
                                    making a session file and loading it, so that the two instances start
                                    off in the same state.

                                    Implementation issues: I am not really competent to discuss this,
                                    but I suspect that the main difficulty would be allowing two instances
                                    of vim to share a buffer.

                                    OT: is it possible in Mozilla to detach a tab, so that the web page in
                                    the tab gets its own window?

                                    --Benji Fisher
                                  • mzyzik@gmail.com
                                    ... Undoubtedly implementing the multiple windows to represent frames/pages will be difficult to implement. I think Bram would be reluctant to introduce
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                      > Good point: if multiple windows are implemented by having more
                                      > communication between different instances of vim, there is no need to
                                      > insist on gvim.
                                      >
                                      > Design issues: this would force a lot of decisions on us. The two
                                      > instances of vim would have separate histories (search, command-line,
                                      > jumps, etc.); global options changed in one would not affect the other;
                                      > new mappings, commands, etc. defined in one would not affect the other.
                                      > Is this what we want? It should be possible to do the equivalent of
                                      > making a session file and loading it, so that the two instances start
                                      > off in the same state.
                                      >
                                      > Implementation issues: I am not really competent to discuss this,
                                      > but I suspect that the main difficulty would be allowing two instances
                                      > of vim to share a buffer.
                                      >
                                      > OT: is it possible in Mozilla to detach a tab, so that the web page in
                                      > the tab gets its own window?
                                      >
                                      > --Benji Fisher

                                      Undoubtedly implementing the multiple windows to represent
                                      "frames/pages" will be difficult to implement. I think Bram would be
                                      reluctant to introduce frames in Vim7 if this was a requirement. We
                                      should consider this once the tabs and frames are working well within
                                      one window.
                                      Basically what I'm saying is, we should just get the frames working
                                      first, hopefully in Vim7, and then consider the multiple windows per
                                      frames later. Besides, the two votes in the top 10 are for frames, and
                                      tabs for those frames; with no mention of multiple windows.

                                      --Matt
                                    • Benji Fisher
                                      ... In my first post on this thread, I advocated considering the design issues of multiple windows at the same time that we discuss tabs, and I still think
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                        On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 10:27:11AM -0500, mzyzik@... wrote:
                                        > > Good point: if multiple windows are implemented by having more
                                        > > communication between different instances of vim, there is no need to
                                        > > insist on gvim.
                                        > >
                                        > > Design issues: this would force a lot of decisions on us. The two
                                        > > instances of vim would have separate histories (search, command-line,
                                        > > jumps, etc.); global options changed in one would not affect the other;
                                        > > new mappings, commands, etc. defined in one would not affect the other.
                                        > > Is this what we want? It should be possible to do the equivalent of
                                        > > making a session file and loading it, so that the two instances start
                                        > > off in the same state.
                                        > >
                                        > > Implementation issues: I am not really competent to discuss this,
                                        > > but I suspect that the main difficulty would be allowing two instances
                                        > > of vim to share a buffer.
                                        > >
                                        > > OT: is it possible in Mozilla to detach a tab, so that the web page in
                                        > > the tab gets its own window?
                                        > >
                                        > > --Benji Fisher
                                        >
                                        > Undoubtedly implementing the multiple windows to represent
                                        > "frames/pages" will be difficult to implement. I think Bram would be
                                        > reluctant to introduce frames in Vim7 if this was a requirement. We
                                        > should consider this once the tabs and frames are working well within
                                        > one window.

                                        In my first post on this thread, I advocated considering the design
                                        issues of multiple windows at the same time that we discuss tabs, and I
                                        still think that is a good idea. Since I am not volunteering to do any
                                        development, I do not have much to say about when to implement these
                                        features. Maybe it is right to have tabs in vim 7.0 and put off windows
                                        until 7.2 or 8.0.

                                        > Basically what I'm saying is, we should just get the frames working
                                        > first, hopefully in Vim7, and then consider the multiple windows per
                                        > frames later. Besides, the two votes in the top 10 are for frames, and
                                        > tabs for those frames; with no mention of multiple windows.

                                        I am not sure what you mean by that last sentence. Are we looking
                                        at the same list? From http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php :

                                        9 146 (-12) 32 -8 support multiple top-level windows for one running Vim

                                        --Benji Fisher
                                      • A. J. Mechelynck
                                        ... [...] ... [...] ... [...] ... Didn t realize you knew about it (and didn t like it). Sorry. Best regards, Tony.
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                          Johnny Blaze wrote:
                                          > On 2/5/06, *A. J. Mechelynck* < antoine.mechelynck@...
                                          > <mailto:antoine.mechelynck@...>> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Johnny Blaze wrote:
                                          [...]
                                          > > Why not make tabs a display option for split windows? Something like:
                                          > >
                                          > > set tabs
                                          > >
                                          > > then when you do a :sball or :new, you get tabs instead of windows...
                                          > >
                                          > > set notabs
                                          [...]
                                          > Hello Johnny. Without changing anything in the current versions of
                                          > (g)vim, you can use "Rolodex Vim", as follows:
                                          >
                                          > :set noequalalways winminheight=0 winheight=99999
                                          [...]
                                          > oh I know... anytime anyone asks this question, you paste the above
                                          > text, and I point them to my script (multiwin.vim ).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          >
                                          > . o O pyromancer O o .

                                          Didn't realize you knew about it (and didn't like it). Sorry.


                                          Best regards,
                                          Tony.
                                        • mzyzik@gmail.com
                                          ... Yeah but I think that means frames/pages, doesn t it? I very possibly could be wrong. --Matt
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                            > > Basically what I'm saying is, we should just get the frames working
                                            > > first, hopefully in Vim7, and then consider the multiple windows per
                                            > > frames later. Besides, the two votes in the top 10 are for frames, and
                                            > > tabs for those frames; with no mention of multiple windows.
                                            >
                                            > I am not sure what you mean by that last sentence. Are we looking
                                            > at the same list? From http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php :
                                            >
                                            > 9 146 (-12) 32 -8 support multiple top-level windows for one running Vim
                                            >
                                            > --Benji Fisher

                                            Yeah but I think that means frames/pages, doesn't it?
                                            I very possibly could be wrong.

                                            --Matt
                                          • Johnny Blaze
                                            ... Its not that I don t like it... you gave me the orignal idea that started the script :-) -- you re actually credited in the script s description on
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                              On 2/7/06, A. J. Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:
                                              > Johnny Blaze wrote:
                                              > > On 2/5/06, *A. J. Mechelynck* < antoine.mechelynck@...
                                              > > <mailto:antoine.mechelynck@...>> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Johnny Blaze wrote:
                                              > [...]
                                              > > > Why not make tabs a display option for split windows? Something like:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > set tabs
                                              > > >
                                              > > > then when you do a :sball or :new, you get tabs instead of windows...
                                              > > >
                                              > > > set notabs
                                              > [...]
                                              > > Hello Johnny. Without changing anything in the current versions of
                                              > > (g)vim, you can use "Rolodex Vim", as follows:
                                              > >
                                              > > :set noequalalways winminheight=0 winheight=99999
                                              > [...]
                                              > > oh I know... anytime anyone asks this question, you paste the above
                                              > > text, and I point them to my script (multiwin.vim ).

                                              > Didn't realize you knew about it (and didn't like it). Sorry.

                                              Its not that I don't like it... you gave me the orignal idea that
                                              started the script :-) -- you're actually credited in the script's
                                              description on vim.org... :-)

                                              --

                                              . o O pyromancer O o .
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