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Re: Small nit in the manual

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  • Benji Fisher
    ... I agree with the content of your change. As for format, I prefer to use the same one as the official patches: context-style diffs (diff -c) generated
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2004
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      On Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 09:06:25PM -0500, François Pinard wrote:
      > Hi, people. Would you check if the following diff is appropriate? I
      > guess that the manual says the contrary of what is meant. This is for
      > Vim 6.2.
      >
      >
      > --- develop.txt.bak 2004-01-01 20:24:16.000000000 -0500
      > +++ develop.txt 2004-01-01 20:25:11.000000000 -0500
      > @@ -341,7 +341,7 @@
      > have one window that shows the text with function bodies folded, another
      > window that shows a function body.
      >
      > -Folding is a way to display the text. It should change the text itself.
      > +Folding is a way to display the text. It should not change the text itself.
      > Therefore the folding has been implemented as a filter between the text stored
      > in a buffer (buffer lines) and the text displayed in a window (logical lines).

      I agree with the content of your change. As for format, I prefer
      to use the same one as the official patches: context-style diffs (diff
      -c) generated from the top-level distribution directory. Something like
      this for a single file:

      $ cd .../vim62
      $ diff -c runtime/doc/develop.txt.bak runtime/doc/develop.txt > develop.txt.diff

      HTH --Benji Fisher
    • François Pinard
      [Benji Fisher] ... This is annoying... Some maintainers like context diffs and hate unidiffs, other maintainers just want the contrary. I find it difficult
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2004
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        [Benji Fisher]

        > I agree with the content of your change. As for format, I prefer to
        > use the same one as the official patches: context-style diffs (diff
        > -c) generated from the top-level distribution directory. Something
        > like this for a single file:

        This is annoying... Some maintainers like context diffs and hate
        unidiffs, other maintainers just want the contrary. I find it difficult
        to remember, for every tool I use, what are the little whims of each
        maintainer. They all try to educate me into their particular habits.

        Plain diffs, I would understand. But context diffs or unidiffs are
        fully equivalent, and moreover, there are tools converting between
        both, which maintainers should silently use for themselves. (I think I
        even have one somewhere in my distributions, contributed long ago by an
        employee from Borland. There are others floating around, as well.)

        Times have changed. Not so long ago, I would have written a very simple
        message directly to the maintainer that a "not" word was missing,
        quoting the document and the sentence, and this would have fully
        sufficient, and plain welcome. In this case, I ought to make the effort
        of prematurely subscribing to the `vim-dev' mailing list (working my
        way around a slightly broken robot, but this is another matter), and
        producing a diff for this tiny nit, well aware that a diff is likely
        overkill: a simple and quick Vim session is probably much more efficient
        than `patch' in this case. You scrutinise diffs anyway, don't you! :-)
        I spent nearly an hour for a single word, and you're still not happy?

        On the other hand, it could have been much worse, and you might have
        thrown bug trackers at me :-). Who knows, I may adapt to these blatant
        failures of UI-design, but for now, I just refuse to contribute when
        maintainers want me to spend hours studying concepts and fighting bugs
        of their new Web toys, each maintainer his own, for acquiring the right
        of submitting a report. I wish Vim never goes there! For the packages
        I maintained or maintain, I warmly receive reports and suggestions as
        worth contributions, and value the time of the submitters too, not only
        mine. I'm reasonable, and they are. One of these days, I'll write a
        Web page for moaning all my soul about the current trends :-).

        Keep happy!

        --
        François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard
      • Steve Hall
        From: François Pinard, Thu Jan 1 23:01:36 2004 ... [lengthy diff rant snipped] ... I just spent a half an hour reading your rant trying to understand why you
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 1, 2004
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          From: François Pinard, Thu Jan 1 23:01:36 2004
          > [Benji Fisher]
          > >
          > > I agree with the content of your change. As for format, I prefer
          > > to use the same one as the official patches: context-style diffs
          > > (diff -c) generated from the top-level distribution directory.
          > > Something like this for a single file:
          >
          > This is annoying...

          [lengthy diff rant snipped]

          > I spent nearly an hour for a single word, and you're still not
          > happy?

          I just spent a half an hour reading your rant trying to understand why
          you wasted so much bandwidth against comments that were instructional,
          supplied with an example, and straight out of the documentation:

          :help style-changes (from development.txt)


          > Keep happy!

          Please.

          --
          Steve Hall [ digitect@... ]
        • David Brown
          ... As far as my brief little search told me, every diff that has been posted to this list in the past few months, except for Bram s is a diff -u diff, not a
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 1, 2004
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            On Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 11:33:25PM -0500, Steve Hall wrote:

            > > I spent nearly an hour for a single word, and you're still not
            > > happy?
            >
            > I just spent a half an hour reading your rant trying to understand why
            > you wasted so much bandwidth against comments that were instructional,
            > supplied with an example, and straight out of the documentation:

            As far as my brief little search told me, every diff that has been
            posted to this list in the past few months, except for Bram's is a 'diff
            -u' diff, not a 'diff -c'. I believe Bram uses '-c' for compability
            with older versions of diffs. Bram's patches go to many people. Diffs
            that come in only have to work with Bram's version of patch, which I'm
            guessing is perfectly capable of handling '-u' diffs.

            I find it odd that complaints were made against one particular diff when
            it matches most others that are submitted to this list.

            Dave
          • Bram Moolenaar
            ... Right, thanks for the correction. Sending me unified diffs is fine, but a few people with older systems can t handle them. -- Support your right to bare
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 2, 2004
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              François Pinard wrote:

              > Hi, people. Would you check if the following diff is appropriate? I
              > guess that the manual says the contrary of what is meant. This is for
              > Vim 6.2.

              Right, thanks for the correction.

              Sending me unified diffs is fine, but a few people with older systems
              can't handle them.

              --
              Support your right to bare arms! Wear short sleeves!

              /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
              /// Creator of Vim - Vi IMproved -- http://www.Vim.org \\\
              \\\ Project leader for A-A-P -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
              \\\ Help AIDS victims, buy here: http://ICCF-Holland.org/click1.html ///
            • Benji Fisher
              ... [snip] ... I am sorry. I interpreted the first line quoted above as asking for advice on the format as well as the content of the diff. ... I think the
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 2, 2004
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                > On Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 09:06:25PM -0500, François Pinard wrote:
                > > Hi, people. Would you check if the following diff is appropriate? I
                [snip]

                On Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 10:20:33PM -0500, François Pinard wrote:
                > [Benji Fisher]
                >
                > > I agree with the content of your change. As for format, I prefer to
                > > use the same one as the official patches: context-style diffs (diff
                > > -c) generated from the top-level distribution directory. Something
                > > like this for a single file:
                >
                > This is annoying... Some maintainers like context diffs and hate
                > unidiffs, other maintainers just want the contrary. I find it difficult
                > to remember, for every tool I use, what are the little whims of each
                > maintainer. They all try to educate me into their particular habits.

                I am sorry. I interpreted the first line quoted above as asking
                for advice on the format as well as the content of the diff.

                > Plain diffs, I would understand. But context diffs or unidiffs are
                > fully equivalent, and moreover, there are tools converting between
                > both, which maintainers should silently use for themselves. (I think I
                > even have one somewhere in my distributions, contributed long ago by an
                > employee from Borland. There are others floating around, as well.)

                I think the main reason for preferring context diffs is that some
                versions of patch cannot deal with the unified format. Perhaps I should
                have stressed that this is a preference, not a requirement: most
                readers of this list can deal with either type, but context diffs are
                more convenient for a minority.

                > Times have changed. Not so long ago, I would have written a very simple
                > message directly to the maintainer that a "not" word was missing,
                > quoting the document and the sentence, and this would have fully
                > sufficient, and plain welcome. In this case, I ought to make the effort
                > of prematurely subscribing to the `vim-dev' mailing list (working my
                > way around a slightly broken robot, but this is another matter), and
                > producing a diff for this tiny nit, well aware that a diff is likely
                > overkill: a simple and quick Vim session is probably much more efficient
                > than `patch' in this case. You scrutinise diffs anyway, don't you! :-)
                > I spent nearly an hour for a single word, and you're still not happy?

                A bug in the documentation can be reported to bugs@... (which
                goes to Bram Moolenaar) just like any other bug. This address does not
                require any subscription. I just appended a note to this effect to my
                tip at http://www.vim.org/tips/tip.php?tip_id=618 .

                I agree that, in this case, a patch is overkill. In my experience,
                Bram is more than happy to accept informal notes about such corrections.

                :help bugs
                :help design-documented

                > On the other hand, it could have been much worse, and you might have
                > thrown bug trackers at me :-). Who knows, I may adapt to these blatant
                > failures of UI-design, but for now, I just refuse to contribute when
                > maintainers want me to spend hours studying concepts and fighting bugs
                > of their new Web toys, each maintainer his own, for acquiring the right
                > of submitting a report. I wish Vim never goes there! For the packages
                > I maintained or maintain, I warmly receive reports and suggestions as
                > worth contributions, and value the time of the submitters too, not only
                > mine. I'm reasonable, and they are. One of these days, I'll write a
                > Web page for moaning all my soul about the current trends :-).

                I think we all try to be reasonable. I am sorry for the waste of
                time, especially since I am probably partly responsible. At least, I
                expect it to be a one-time cost.

                --Benji Fisher
              • Keith Roberts
                ... Please don t consider this thread to be a waste of bandwidth ... I, for one, learned a lot. But for those of us who aren t up to speed on all the various
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 5, 2004
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                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: Benji Fisher [mailto:benji@...]
                  >Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 5:37 AM
                  >To: Forum of Vim developers
                  >Subject: Re: Small nit in the manual
                  >
                  >> > I agree with the content of your change. As for format, I prefer to
                  >> > use the same one as the official patches: context-style diffs (diff
                  >> > -c) generated from the top-level distribution directory. Something
                  >> > like this for a single file:
                  >
                  >I think the main reason for preferring context diffs is that some
                  >versions of patch cannot deal with the unified format. Perhaps I should
                  >have stressed that this is a preference, not a requirement: most
                  >readers of this list can deal with either type, but context diffs are
                  >more convenient for a minority.
                  >
                  >A bug in the documentation can be reported to bugs@... (which
                  >goes to Bram Moolenaar) just like any other bug. This address does not
                  >require any subscription. I just appended a note to this effect to my
                  >tip at http://www.vim.org/tips/tip.php?tip_id=618 .
                  >
                  > I agree that, in this case, a patch is overkill. In my experience,
                  >Bram is more than happy to accept informal notes about such corrections.
                  >
                  >:help bugs
                  >:help design-documented
                  >
                  >I think we all try to be reasonable. I am sorry for the waste of
                  >time, especially since I am probably partly responsible. At least, I
                  >expect it to be a one-time cost.

                  Please don't consider this thread to be a waste of bandwidth ... I, for one,
                  learned a lot. But for those of us who aren't up to speed on all the
                  various diff formats, here are some useful links:
                  http://borg.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/cgi-bin/info2www?(diff)Index
                  http://borg.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/cgi-bin/info2www?(diff)Context

                  I also finally found [the Google links are too old]:
                  http://www.gnu.org/software/diffutils/manual/html_mono/diff.html#toc_Top

                  [search for Context and/or Unified and follow link]
                • François Pinard
                  [François Pinard] ... [Benji Fisher] ... [François Pinard] ... [Benji Fisher] ... We are both sorry. I should have seen the ambiguity of my saying while
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 8, 2004
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                    [François Pinard]
                    > Hi, people. Would you check if the following diff is appropriate?
                    > [...]

                    [Benji Fisher]
                    > I agree with the content of your change. As for format, I prefer
                    > [...] context-style diffs [...]

                    [François Pinard]
                    > This is annoying... Some maintainers like context diffs and hate
                    > unidiffs, other maintainers just want the contrary. [...]

                    [Benji Fisher]
                    > I am sorry. I interpreted the first line quoted above as asking for
                    > advice on the format as well as the content of the diff.

                    We are both sorry. I should have seen the ambiguity of my saying while
                    writing it.

                    > I think we all try to be reasonable. I am sorry for the waste of
                    > time, especially since I am probably partly responsible. At least, I
                    > expect it to be a one-time cost.

                    The cost for me is staying on vim-dev, while it is a bit prematurate in
                    my case. But the volume is not high, and the exchanges are interesting,
                    so I guess I'll just stick around, yet silently for a while. :-)

                    Keep happy, everybody.

                    --
                    François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard
                  • Nazri Ramliy
                    On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 12:58:40PM -0500, François Pinard wrote: [Benji Fisher] ... [François Pinard] ... I just love happy ending, :) Nazri.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 8, 2004
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                      On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 12:58:40PM -0500, François Pinard wrote:
                      [Benji Fisher]
                      > > I am sorry. I interpreted the first line quoted above as asking for
                      > > advice on the format as well as the content of the diff.
                      >
                      [François Pinard]
                      > We are both sorry. I should have seen the ambiguity of my saying while
                      > writing it.
                      >
                      > > I think we all try to be reasonable. I am sorry for the waste of
                      > > time, especially since I am probably partly responsible. At least, I
                      > > expect it to be a one-time cost.
                      >
                      > The cost for me is staying on vim-dev, while it is a bit prematurate in
                      > my case. But the volume is not high, and the exchanges are interesting,
                      > so I guess I'll just stick around, yet silently for a while. :-)
                      >
                      > Keep happy, everybody.

                      I just love happy ending, :)

                      Nazri.
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