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Re: vim.org reviewed and classified

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  • Ricardo SIGNES
    ... Agreed. Once we have the basic branches of the tree, it s easy to add smaller branches and leaves. ;) I m going to cut and paste your responses into a
    Message 1 of 36 , Apr 1, 2002
      On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 03:14:58PM +0200, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
      > Good plan. We might also want to leave some pages to Sven's Vim site.
      > At least for a start. Most important now is to get the layout right, so
      > that all info can be found where people would expect it.

      Agreed. Once we have the basic branches of the tree, it's easy to add
      smaller branches and leaves. ;)

      I'm going to cut and paste your responses into a more reply-able order. I'll
      try not to munge context.

      > > * addicted.html
      > > - 101 signs you're addicted to vim.
      > Let's leave this on on Sven's site.

      Works for me.

      > > * answ.html
      > > - not quite a FAQ, not quite a brief guide
      > The remarks here are useful, but not organized. These should either be
      > added as a tip to vim-online or to the FAQ. Otherwise nobody can find
      > the info.
      > > * faq/
      > > - a FAQ
      > > Well, we need to have one current and online. We don't seem to.
      > We need a maintainer for the FAQ!

      Someone volunteered this morning. :) We can see how that goes! :)

      > > * binaries.html
      > > - links to mirrors for binary distributions
      > Most of this info is outdated (Vim 5.3 is _old_). The page is setup in
      > the wrong way, takes too much time to maintain. The most useful links
      > should be added to the existing download page on vim.sf.net (some
      > are already there).


      > > * chall.html
      > > - apparently once intended to be a 'challenges' page
      > Since there is only one item, this page can be removed.

      Right. At some point, this kind of 'fun' stuff could be replicated on
      vimonline, but it's hardly a critical piece of 'starting content.'

      > > * chat.html
      > > - links to vim IRC channels
      > > This is a good idea, and can probably go under 'support' as
      > > one or two lines of 'where to find good vim irc channels'
      > Yep. Maintaining the list of IRC servers seems a bad idea, can't we link
      > to a list available somewhere?

      Yeah. It's ridiculous for us to try and be responsible for that. The
      server list is way out of scope. We should instead say something like:

      Good Vim IRC channels include #vim on <ircnet> and #vim on <efnet>

      ...and link the network names to the respective networks' home page or their
      own list of servers.

      > > * deve.html
      > > - vim development goals and 'mission'

      > Problem with this page is that it's about Svens point of view. Not mine
      > or Vim developers in general. The main Vim goals are in the on-line
      > help: ":help development". Don't make it confusing by making a web
      > page as well.

      Ok. We can just link to that page in the online manual from 'About Vim,' if we
      decide that the development goals are useful for people learning about vim.

      > What is useful from here is a list of different Vim add-ons and who is
      > working on what. Here called "projects". Problem is that most of
      > this info is outdated.

      Can these be stored as scripts, even if they're more complex than just .vim
      scripts? Could we add a 'script type'to make that a better idea?

      > > * dist.html
      > > - a list of vim distribution mirrors
      > The file ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim/MIRRORS contains the info most people
      > need. The detailed info in Sven's page quickly gets outdated (probably
      > already is, who would check this?). Anyway, the home ftp server is
      > quite fast (1 Gbit link to the european backbone). Only during a week
      > when Red Hat has a new release it's a bit crowded.

      How does that file get updated? Would it make sense to [eventually] allow
      people to automatically register mirrors with vimonline?

      The file is a little ungainly. It might be easier to sort by location (either
      after or instead of by update frequency.)

      I think that [eventually] a vimonline list of mirrors would be great. Mirror
      admins could list their mirrors there, and users could rate their experiences
      with that mirror. (Too often late, etc.) For now, the MIRRORS file is clearly
      sufficient, and thankfully accurate.

      > > * docs.html
      > > * doc/
      > > * howto/
      > > - an overview of vim documentation
      > >
      > > Most of this is already covered by vimonline's documentation pages
      > > (vimdoc.sf.net), but that page needs to be brought in line
      > > with the look of vimonline. Also, more 'official' HOWTO like
      > > documentation should be listed -- things that are longer than
      > > tips.
      > I don't see a problem with adding "howto" items to the vim-online tips.
      > At least you would be able to find them. Making a separate list for
      > "howto" items would make it difficult to decide where to find which
      > item.

      I think my only objection to this is that my brain keeps trying to think of
      Vim-related HOWTO's as like Linux's HOWTOs, which are extensive and long. I
      guess it's really unlikely that we'll have hundreds, or that they'll be epic.
      You're probably right -- they belong in tips.

      > > * features.??.html
      > > - a brief description of vim in 6kB
      > > The brief description in 6k is a nice running project, and should be
      > > maintained as part of vimdoc, probably.
      > Can't find a list of these... It's mentioned on the main page but
      > without a link.

      My wget only turned up the ones linked from the front page. I know there are
      more! I'm sure we can either get Sven to produce them or find them with
      google. I'm working on an Esperanto translation. :)

      > > * hist.html
      > > - release dates of vim
      > It's nice background info. Note that the 6.1 releases are missing.

      Yeah, and info before version 5 or so is spotty. I think it's nice to be able
      to see how the software developed, especially when it's as large and as
      relatively old as vim.

      > > * lang.html
      > > - a list of syntax files and their maintainers/etc
      > >
      > > This page, too, is way out of date. This is rendered obsolete
      > > by the scripts archive.
      > One thing that's still missing is a way for syntax/indent/plugin file
      > manintainers to distribute new versions. This should allow a user to
      > get the latest version of a specific file (or all files), and taking the
      > risc that something is broken. I can then include the updated file in a
      > new version (after checking that it doesn't look broken).

      > > * macs.html
      > > - news for vim for macintosh
      > >
      > > News alone should mostly cover this. Adding a 'type' field to
      > > news items and letting users filter on that should entirely
      > > cover this.
      > This looks like it's outdated. The vim-mac maillist is more useful in
      > many ways. A (maintained!) Mac specific page can be found elsewhere.
      > It's probably better to make a list of useful links, organised by
      > subject and OS.

      Yeah, agreed. 'Links' or a 'Resources' section should contain this.

      > > * mail.html
      > > - vim mailing lists
      > >
      > > This is covered by the 'support' page, although 'support' does
      > > not list some of the more obscure lists. Maybe we should have
      > > a 'more lists' link to find the non-English language lists,
      > > etc.
      > Sven's page contains much useful information. I think it's useful to
      > include most of this.

      Yup, we just need to extend the 'mailing lists' section of Support, possibly on
      a deeper link from support.php, possibly right on that page.

      > > * mirrors.html
      > > - another list of mirrors
      > The www mirrors are new though.

      Yeah... but if they're www mirrors of the downloads, then they can go in the
      FTP mirrors file (although we probably want to make a copy of it available via
      HTTP). If they're www mirrors of the site -- well, we need to figure out how
      that will work, first!

      > > * news.html
      > > * announce/
      > > - vim news
      > >
      > > This is covered already by vimonline's news feature.
      > Although links to the announcements in the maillists could be useful.

      I'm not sure I know what you mean. Send out a link to the announcement via the
      mailing lists, or putting a link to the archived announcement message on the
      vimonline page? Both would be OK.

      > > * newsgroup.html
      > > - info on USENET posting for vim
      > >
      > > The reference to comp.editors is relatively redundant,
      > > although also harmless if we want to include that on the
      > > support page. Better, though, is the list of things to
      > > mention when asking for help. (Version, OS, etc.) That
      > > should be included/linked somewhere on the support page.
      > Useful. Although the hints to search the news archive should be put
      > first.

      There's a good tip on "What to do before asking for vim help" (229). Merging
      your tip, that tip, and the "How to actually ask for help" information would
      make a good linked document from the support page.

      > > * orga.html
      > > - information about the domain vim.org; maintainer, email addies, etc
      > The info about mail aliases quickly gets outdated. And too easy for
      > spammers to find.

      Then it goes!

      > > * pics.html
      > > * pics/
      > > - banners, buttons, and screenshots
      > >
      > > Screenshots are already covered by the Why Use Vim? page.
      > >
      > > Banners and buttons should go under our 'About Vim' page, or
      > > under an 'Advocacy' or 'Community' section. (Community could
      > > also contain the IRC info.)
      > Could just keep the link to Sven's page, it's quite nice.


      > > * prayer.html
      > > - Pater Noster for Vim
      > Vim isn't a religion, I don't like it, better get rid of this.

      Ok. I've always found it a little over-the-top, especially when it has EMACS
      barbs. I mean, hey, I'm no fan of EMACS, but we don't get any more users by
      being extremists. :)

      > > * quotes.html
      > > - quotes about vi and vim
      > >
      > > This is an amusing page, and belongs under 'Advocacy,'
      > > 'Community,' or 'About Vim.' Maybe we should create a quotes
      > > list, like tips and scripts, so that excellent / amusing
      > > quotes can rise to the top.

      > Or just link to Sven's page.

      Yeah. Maybe I just find this page particularly interesting, but it strikes me
      that if we link directly to this page, it might never/rarely get updated. If
      we link only to Sven's page, it might never get noticed.

      It's certainly not critical content, anyway.

      > > * tree.html
      > > - a site map
      > >
      > > This page is incredibly out of date. We don't really need it,
      > > but once we decide how to lay out vimonline's expanded
      > > content, we'll have one anyway.
      > It's good to have an overview of all pages.

      Ok. I'll put together a 'proposed tree' that incorporates what we have and
      what I think we want. ;) Later today, I hope.

      > > * users.html
      > > - links to pages of other vim users
      > >
      > > This is covered by user info. Users can list their own links
      > > to their pages there.
      > What do you mean with "user info"? The current page is too bulky and
      > quickly gets outdated.

      I mean the links like

      They give you an opportunity to link, put your email, and they list your
      scripts. And they require no maintenance, basically, from the system

      > > * why.html
      > > - why use vim?
      > >
      > > We already have this on vimonline.
      > Sven's page contains much more stuff. The question is if there are more
      > then a few people who would want to read this.

      I think it would be nice to include a 'feature list' somewhere between Sven's
      page and the current 'Why?' page. Sven's page is a little verbose, and it's
      hard to find specific features in it. A feature list with a brief explanation
      of a linked, ordered set of features would be nice.

      > It seems your list is not complete. A few things I missed:

      Huh! I wonder how I lost those.

      > keys.html

      This should be replaced with the relevant part of the user's manual.

      > ques.html

      These seem like they should mailing list issues until they're solved, and then
      they should be in the FAQ or tips.

      > util.html

      I think that this is outside the scope of vimonline. A link to Sven's
      frontpage seems sufficient to let people find this info.

      > wish.html

      Sourceforge includes a feature request tracker.

    • Coen Engelbarts
      ... One thing I could not find there: What does the acronym (?) A-A-P mean? It might be Any Acronym Perceivable , An A-A-P Project , or something similar,
      Message 36 of 36 , Apr 4, 2002
        > It's all explained on the web site: http://a-a-p.org
        > If you still don't get it, I will have to update the web pages...

        One thing I could not find there: What does the acronym (?) "A-A-P" mean?
        It might be "Any Acronym Perceivable", "An A-A-P Project", or something
        similar, like TTP="The TTP Project" from the Dilbert comic, but I'd still
        like to know. ;-)
        Google only brings tons of other AAPs.

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