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  • R Signes
    Friends: Ok, I am loathe to bring this up, because I feel like I m going against the team spirit. I remember all the hoopla with the Vim Regina posting
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 25, 2002
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      Friends:

      Ok, I am loathe to bring this up, because I feel like I'm going against the
      team spirit. I remember all the hoopla with the "Vim Regina" posting someone
      made some months ago.

      That said, better honest and disliked than quiet and unknown. Or something.

      I find the vim.org page extremely difficult to use. It is so difficult to
      use, in fact, that it makes me upset. I feel like an editor which enables so
      many quick, simple solutions to problems should have a similarly simple,
      coherent web page.

      The content is scattered across the site and often seems wildly out of date.
      Or, almost as bad, there is no indication on old pages that as to whether their
      content is still believed to be accurate. The site map (page tree) is (and I
      know that Sven admits it, but that doesn't fix it!) also out of date.

      This content needs to be more structured, more managed, and have a simple
      get-to-anything-quickly interface.

      Now, I am the first to admit that I have not donated even .01% of what Sven
      has, and that what we have is actually quite a good resource. It's just a very
      hard to mine resource.

      I will donate as much of my time as I can spare -- and that's actually a good
      amount -- to helping to create a better interface. I will write HTML, code
      CGI, test CGI, index content, reformat/sed-edit content, verify veracity of
      content. Whatever needs to be done, I am willing to do -- short of writing
      a check.

      Is there any interest in a community effort to create something more
      comprehensive and easy to use and maintain? Are Bram, Sven, and anyone else
      in a position of authority amenible to the idea?

      If I must be shouted down, I must. I hope I am not!

      --
      rjbs
    • Benji Fisher
      ... [snip] ... I do not think anyone gets flak for volunteering on this list. Maybe you can join the VimOnline team. Help make http://vim.sourceforge.net
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 25, 2002
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        On Monday, March 25, 2002, at 06:54 PM, R Signes wrote:

        > Friends:
        >
        > Ok, I am loathe to bring this up, because I feel like I'm going against
        > the
        > team spirit. I remember all the hoopla with the "Vim Regina" posting
        > someone
        > made some months ago.
        >
        > That said, better honest and disliked than quiet and unknown. Or
        > something.
        >
        > I find the vim.org page extremely difficult to use.
        [snip]
        > I will donate as much of my time as I can spare -- and that's actually a
        > good
        > amount -- to helping to create a better interface. I will write HTML,
        > code
        > CGI, test CGI, index content, reformat/sed-edit content, verify veracity
        > of
        > content. Whatever needs to be done, I am willing to do -- short of
        > writing
        > a check.

        I do not think anyone gets flak for volunteering on this list. Maybe
        you can join the VimOnline team. Help make http://vim.sourceforge.net
        better, and maybe that's enough.

        --Benji
      • Ricardo SIGNES
        ... What vim things aren t linked from vim.sf.net? A few things spring to mind: * download * current release in a consistant location * a clear link to
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 27, 2002
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          On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 10:12:04PM +0100, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
          >
          > Someone has to do the work to design a new front page for vim.sf.net.
          > This should be setup as the a meta-link page, from where all the other
          > Vim things can be found. The latest news item(s) can be displayed in
          > the page as well.
          >

          What vim things aren't linked from vim.sf.net? A few things spring to mind:
          * download
          * current release in a consistant location
          * a clear link to 'official' systematic documentation (eg, the user guide)

          That shouldn't be hard to add. Anything else? I could easily be missing
          something, and probably am.

          > Some pages at the second level also need to be made. From several places
          > Sven's existing pages can be linked, at least for now.

          Agreed. Perhaps we could make a 'planned site map' and then implement it.
          That is, say we decide that we need a brief page outlining the history of vi
          and vim. We then put it somewhere on the map, and someone on the team gets it
          done.

          > Sourceforge supports using PHP and MySQL, but mirroring is difficult
          > then. We could either use these features and rely on the Sourceforge
          > web services, or filter the pages to produce plain HTML. Since I haven't
          > heard complaints about the pages on sourceforge, and PHP provides some
          > very nice features, we might want to accept that mirroring becomes more
          > difficult. We need to do this for the scripts and tips anyway.

          I think that it would be easy to produce static 'snapshots' of the site, if we
          design with that in mind. That said, I'm not sure how worthwhile it would be:
          I have never had any problem with speed or availability of Sourceforge. Also,
          mirrors would have to identify themselves as 'second order' or some such rot.
          I guess this is a question of just needing to meet demand.

          > Maintenance of the pages should be done by several people, each doing
          > their section. Sourceforge allows several people to have write access,
          > this is the main reason why this can't be done on the current
          > www.vim.org web site.

          Yeah. I liked the allusion someone made, earlier, to Team Vim Online.

          > Once this has been setup www.vim.org can point to the new site. Sven's
          > pages can get a new URL, perhaps guckes.vim.org, or the links go to his
          > pages at fu-berlin.de (www.vim.org actually is a mirror of these). Thus
          > all Svens' pages should still be available. Although he might want to
          > leave the maintenance of some pages to others.

          Or, perhaps Sven's content will be so well integrated into vimonline that Sven
          will want to become a mirror of the static content and part of the vimonline
          content-writing team.

          > That's the idea. Now someone has to dive into it and make a great
          > design...

          I think our current design on vimonline is alright, isn't it? It just needs a
          few tweaks.

          Could we, maybe, create a vim-online@... mailing list? I know there's a
          vimonline-support@sf list (or something like that), but I got the impression
          it's more of a webmaster account. Am I wrong?

          I am eager to help Team Vim Online. :)

          --
          rjbs
        • Zdenek Sekera
          ... This is actually pretty good for 20 mins effort! I d prefer though to somehow integrate it with vim.sf.net (which has already some of this info and is very
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 27, 2002
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Thomas Hurst [mailto:tom.hurst@...]
            > Sent: mercredi, 27. mars 2002 13:24
            > To: vim-dev@...
            > Subject: Re: http://www.vim.org
            >
            >
            > * Bram Moolenaar (Bram@...) wrote:
            >
            > > That's the idea. Now someone has to dive into it and make a great
            > > design...
            >
            > 20 minutes later: http://freak.aagh.net/vim.org/
            >

            This is actually pretty good for 20 mins effort!
            I'd prefer though to somehow integrate it with vim.sf.net (which
            has already some of this info and is very attractive (IMHO) in its own
            right) maybe what's needed is to figure out what's missing there and
            merge the important pieces to it from Sven's page.

            ---Zdenek
          • Thomas Hurst
            ... There s a long bloated download page that s significantly more difficult to navigate than the ftp :) ... Yoda you speak like, yes. ... There s a link under
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 27, 2002
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              * Ricardo SIGNES (samael-vim@...) wrote:

              > What vim things aren't linked from vim.sf.net? A few things spring to
              > mind: * download

              There's a long bloated download page that's significantly more difficult
              to navigate than the ftp :)

              > * current release in a consistant location a clear link to

              Yoda you speak like, yes.

              > * 'official' systematic documentation (eg, the user guide)

              There's a link under "Vim Community" on the left sidebar; I must admit,
              though, I find the twin sidebar's distracting. I'd rather have the
              "What is [X]" bits on their own page and the space made available for
              clearer navigation (even if that's just not to have the second sidebar
              competing for attention).

              > Agreed. Perhaps we could make a 'planned site map' and then implement
              > it. That is, say we decide that we need a brief page outlining the
              > history of vi and vim. We then put it somewhere on the map, and
              > someone on the team gets it done.

              How about.. a Vim Wiki! :)

              > > Sourceforge supports using PHP and MySQL, but mirroring is
              > > difficult then. We could either use these features and rely on the
              > > Sourceforge web services, or filter the pages to produce plain HTML.
              > > Since I haven't heard complaints about the pages on sourceforge,
              > > and PHP provides some very nice features, we might want to accept
              > > that mirroring becomes more difficult. We need to do this for the
              > > scripts and tips anyway.

              Should be easy enough to generate static pages for the static content,
              including individual pages for scripts and tips. Dynamic stuff can be
              linked to sf.net, which can always link back to the mirror.

              > I think that it would be easy to produce static 'snapshots' of the
              > site, if we design with that in mind.

              Produce proper cache-control heades and Apache with mod_proxy would be
              able to mirror it without problems.

              > That said, I'm not sure how worthwhile it would be: I have never had
              > any problem with speed or availability of Sourceforge.

              I think you must be living in a different dimension to me, I always
              cringe when I have to put up with their multi-second latencies and 4k/s
              max speed :)

              > Also, mirrors would have to identify themselves as 'second order' or
              > some such rot. I guess this is a question of just needing to meet
              > demand.

              Not really. It's hardly the end of the world if a mirror is behind by
              a few hours; push-mirroring would minimise that anyway (update a page,
              CMS then sends it to the mirrors, rather than waiting for the mirrors to
              check).

              > > That's the idea. Now someone has to dive into it and make a great
              > > design...
              >
              > I think our current design on vimonline is alright, isn't it? It just
              > needs a few tweaks.

              As I've said, I'm not keen on the twin sidebars; it makes it cluttered.
              It doesn't help that the layout for each page is different; some have
              two sidebars, some have one, some don't have any.

              The URI scheme is poor; the fact that everything's served by individual
              PHP files is exposed to the outside world, so if the implimentation
              changes, links to those pages break.

              The HTML is broken and a very nasty mixture of transitional elements and
              CSS.

              The top navigation bar is very easy to miss; links to other sites are
              significantly more noticable and readable, being about twice the size
              and in a prime position on the layout.

              So, while it looks nice, some of it is suboptimal or even plain broken.

              (I'm not flaming anyone here; my critiques are always like this :)

              > I am eager to help Team Vim Online. :)

              As an obsessive XHTML/CSS/PHP/quality junkie, Me Too[tm].

              --
              Thomas 'Freaky' Hurst - freaky@... - http://www.aagh.net/
              -
              The time for action is past!
              Now is the time for senseless bickering.
            • Ricardo SIGNES
              ... Yeah. We need one that sucketh not. ... I think I accidentally combined two thoughts here. I mean (as most probably could tell): * the current release
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 27, 2002
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                On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 02:46:49PM +0000, Thomas Hurst wrote:
                > * Ricardo SIGNES (samael-vim@...) wrote:
                > > What vim things aren't linked from vim.sf.net? A few things spring to
                > > mind: * download
                > There's a long bloated download page that's significantly more difficult
                > to navigate than the ftp :)

                Yeah. We need one that sucketh not.

                > > * current release in a consistant location a clear link to
                > Yoda you speak like, yes.

                I think I accidentally combined two thoughts here. I mean (as most probably
                could tell):

                * the current release number, shown in a consistant location
                * a clear link to 'official' systematic documentation

                > > * 'official' systematic documentation (eg, the user guide)
                > There's a link under "Vim Community" on the left sidebar; I must admit,
                > though, I find the twin sidebar's distracting. I'd rather have the
                > "What is [X]" bits on their own page and the space made available for
                > clearer navigation (even if that's just not to have the second sidebar
                > competing for attention).

                Agreed. Like I meant to say: a clear link to it. I shouldn't need help to
                find the help.

                > > Agreed. Perhaps we could make a 'planned site map' and then implement
                > > it. That is, say we decide that we need a brief page outlining the
                > > history of vi and vim. We then put it somewhere on the map, and
                > > someone on the team gets it done.
                > How about.. a Vim Wiki! :)

                I always feel like wiki's are way too open to vandalism, given the wiki
                software I've seen in use. Maybe it was poorly configured or just a bad
                example.

                > Should be easy enough to generate static pages for the static content,
                > including individual pages for scripts and tips. Dynamic stuff can be
                > linked to sf.net, which can always link back to the mirror.
                > > I think that it would be easy to produce static 'snapshots' of the
                > > site, if we design with that in mind.
                > Produce proper cache-control heades and Apache with mod_proxy would be
                > able to mirror it without problems.

                Yup. But we could (and probably should) probably even make it possible for
                wget to mirror it for, say, a publicfile server.

                > > Also, mirrors would have to identify themselves as 'second order' or
                > > some such rot. I guess this is a question of just needing to meet
                > > demand.
                > Not really. It's hardly the end of the world if a mirror is behind by
                > a few hours; push-mirroring would minimise that anyway (update a page,
                > CMS then sends it to the mirrors, rather than waiting for the mirrors to
                > check).

                This is a question of how much they can mirror: if we make it possible to
                mirror all content, then sure; if they can only mirror select content, it is
                important to be labelled as only having such.

                > > > That's the idea. Now someone has to dive into it and make a great
                > > > design...
                > >
                > > I think our current design on vimonline is alright, isn't it? It just
                > > needs a few tweaks.
                >
                > As I've said, I'm not keen on the twin sidebars; it makes it cluttered.
                > It doesn't help that the layout for each page is different; some have
                > two sidebars, some have one, some don't have any.

                Agreed.

                > The URI scheme is poor; the fact that everything's served by individual
                > PHP files is exposed to the outside world, so if the implimentation
                > changes, links to those pages break.

                Yes, as with many/most dynamic sites, the URIs are crappy and too prone to lose
                persistance.

                > The HTML is broken and a very nasty mixture of transitional elements and
                > CSS.

                Yes. XHTML + CSS will serve everyone, especially if we NN4-proof it.

                > The top navigation bar is very easy to miss; links to other sites are
                > significantly more noticable and readable, being about twice the size
                > and in a prime position on the layout.

                It should probably move to the left sidebar. We should reduce the number of
                divisions available at each level -- harder to get lost when there are fewer
                choices.

                > So, while it looks nice, some of it is suboptimal or even plain broken.
                >
                > (I'm not flaming anyone here; my critiques are always like this :)

                Oh, I agree. It needs work, but these all strike me as tweaks. It is not,
                though, just a poorly-marked-up pile of documents. It should not prove too
                difficult to work with.

                --
                rjbs
              • Bram Moolenaar
                Thomas Hurst wrote: Many good remarks... ... Do you mean the one on vim.sf.net (which I wrote) or Sven s? I have tried to make the vim.sf.net one useful for
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 27, 2002
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                  Thomas Hurst wrote:

                  Many good remarks...

                  > * Ricardo SIGNES (samael-vim@...) wrote:
                  >
                  > > What vim things aren't linked from vim.sf.net? A few things spring to
                  > > mind: * download
                  >
                  > There's a long bloated download page that's significantly more difficult
                  > to navigate than the ftp :)

                  Do you mean the one on vim.sf.net (which I wrote) or Sven's? I have
                  tried to make the vim.sf.net one useful for all kinds of people. But
                  perhaps some items could be improved, please make specific remarks.

                  > > * 'official' systematic documentation (eg, the user guide)
                  >
                  > There's a link under "Vim Community" on the left sidebar;

                  The layout of the pages and links on each page certainly need to be
                  improved. Currently there is a difference between "vim-online",
                  documentation and other things. The user just wants to view the whole
                  thing as one site, I suppose.

                  > I must admit, though, I find the twin sidebar's distracting. I'd
                  > rather have the "What is [X]" bits on their own page and the space
                  > made available for clearer navigation (even if that's just not to have
                  > the second sidebar competing for attention).

                  It's hard to fit all relevant info on the front page. Perhaps a few
                  alternatives can be sketched and the best solution selected.

                  > The HTML is broken and a very nasty mixture of transitional elements and
                  > CSS.

                  There have been a few complaints that the pages don't display properly
                  on some browsers. That defenitely has to be fixed before using the same
                  structure for more pages.

                  > > I am eager to help Team Vim Online. :)
                  >
                  > As an obsessive XHTML/CSS/PHP/quality junkie, Me Too[tm].

                  Good to hear this. Join the quality control team!

                  --
                  Never enter the boss's office unless it's absolutely necessary. Every boss
                  saves one corner of the desk for useless assignments that are doled out like
                  Halloween candy to each visitor.
                  (Scott Adams - The Dilbert principle)

                  /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.moolenaar.net \\\
                  /// Creator of Vim -- http://vim.sf.net -- ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim \\\
                  \\\ Project leader for A-A-P -- http://www.a-a-p.org ///
                  \\\ Help me helping AIDS orphans in Uganda - http://iccf-holland.org ///
                • Bram Moolenaar
                  ... Good for a first idea. Where s the Vim logo??? There will be more than a few dozen of pages, we need a second navigation level. Check Sven s pages for an
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 27, 2002
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                    Thomas Hurst wrote:

                    > * Bram Moolenaar (Bram@...) wrote:
                    >
                    > > That's the idea. Now someone has to dive into it and make a great
                    > > design...
                    >
                    > 20 minutes later: http://freak.aagh.net/vim.org/

                    Good for a first idea.

                    Where's the Vim logo???

                    There will be more than a few dozen of pages, we need a second
                    navigation level. Check Sven's pages for an idea of what pages there
                    will be (eventually).

                    The fat lines above each news item isn't looking good.

                    About the name: Why not call the whole thing Vim-online? The collection
                    of scripts and tips is just part of it.

                    Obviously many things still need to be added (Webring links, to name
                    one).

                    --
                    Contrary to popular belief, it's often your clothing that gets promoted, not
                    you.
                    (Scott Adams - The Dilbert principle)

                    /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.moolenaar.net \\\
                    /// Creator of Vim -- http://vim.sf.net -- ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim \\\
                    \\\ Project leader for A-A-P -- http://www.a-a-p.org ///
                    \\\ Help me helping AIDS orphans in Uganda - http://iccf-holland.org ///
                  • Thomas Hurst
                    ... Reload, I think it fits in quite nicely actually. It s in a so tty/images off users get a normal title. ... A second linkbar is no problem. I ve
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 27, 2002
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                      * Bram Moolenaar (Bram@...) wrote:

                      > Thomas Hurst wrote:
                      > > 20 minutes later: http://freak.aagh.net/vim.org/
                      >
                      > Good for a first idea.
                      >
                      > Where's the Vim logo???

                      Reload, I think it fits in quite nicely actually. It's in a <h1> so
                      tty/images off users get a normal title.

                      > There will be more than a few dozen of pages, we need a second
                      > navigation level. Check Sven's pages for an idea of what pages there
                      > will be (eventually).

                      A second linkbar is no problem. I've added a non exhaustive list,
                      although it will need more tweaks to make it display properly on all
                      browsers (Opera 6 is closest to the desired look).

                      > The fat lines above each news item isn't looking good.

                      No, they're not wonderful. I've turned each news item into a seperate
                      block which looks a bit better I think. All with 2 CSS properties :)

                      --
                      Thomas 'Freaky' Hurst - freaky@... - http://www.aagh.net/
                      -
                      There are few virtues that the Poles do not possess --
                      and there are few mistakes they have ever avoided.
                      -- W. Churchill, Parliament, August, 1945
                    • Thomas Hurst
                      ... Yours. The problem is it s indexed by filename template ( gvim##.exe , vim##rt.lha, etc) rather than what the files are ( Complete Installer ,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 27, 2002
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                        * Bram Moolenaar (Bram@...) wrote:

                        > Thomas Hurst wrote:
                        > > There's a long bloated download page that's significantly more
                        > > difficult to navigate than the ftp :)
                        >
                        > Do you mean the one on vim.sf.net (which I wrote) or Sven's? I have
                        > tried to make the vim.sf.net one useful for all kinds of people. But
                        > perhaps some items could be improved, please make specific remarks.

                        Yours. The problem is it's indexed by filename template ("gvim##.exe",
                        vim##rt.lha, etc) rather than what the files are ("Complete Installer",
                        "Executables only"), which makes it non-obvious what file you actually
                        need.

                        > It's hard to fit all relevant info on the front page. Perhaps a few
                        > alternatives can be sketched and the best solution selected.

                        It can be assumed the user's only going to need to read the What Is
                        stuff once; putting those on the main links bar in a prominant position
                        and/or giving a very terse description on the front page (as I have on
                        my design, although the content's purely filler for the layout) would
                        probably be best.

                        > > The HTML is broken and a very nasty mixture of transitional elements
                        > > and CSS.
                        >
                        > There have been a few complaints that the pages don't display properly
                        > on some browsers. That defenitely has to be fixed before using the
                        > same structure for more pages.

                        It's your punishment for using a layout method that was depreciated half
                        a decade ago and never really recommended in the first place ;)

                        Don't worry, the punishments for using standards compliant stuff are just
                        as painful :)

                        --
                        Thomas 'Freaky' Hurst - freaky@... - http://www.aagh.net/
                        -
                        When a Banker jumps out of a window,
                        jump after him -- that's where the money is.
                        -- Robespierre
                      • Ricardo SIGNES
                        ... Why not make it a table: rows are platforms, columns are versions (complete, binaries, runtime, etc) ... True enough! -- rjbs
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 27, 2002
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                          On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 10:29:14PM +0000, Thomas Hurst wrote:
                          > * Bram Moolenaar (Bram@...) wrote:
                          > > Thomas Hurst wrote:
                          > > > There's a long bloated download page that's significantly more
                          > > > difficult to navigate than the ftp :)
                          > > Do you mean the one on vim.sf.net (which I wrote) or Sven's? I have
                          > > tried to make the vim.sf.net one useful for all kinds of people. But
                          > > perhaps some items could be improved, please make specific remarks.
                          > Yours. The problem is it's indexed by filename template ("gvim##.exe",
                          > vim##rt.lha, etc) rather than what the files are ("Complete Installer",
                          > "Executables only"), which makes it non-obvious what file you actually
                          > need.

                          Why not make it a table: rows are platforms, columns are versions (complete,
                          binaries, runtime, etc)

                          > > > The HTML is broken and a very nasty mixture of transitional elements
                          > > > and CSS.
                          > > There have been a few complaints that the pages don't display properly
                          > > on some browsers. That defenitely has to be fixed before using the
                          > > same structure for more pages.
                          > It's your punishment for using a layout method that was depreciated half
                          > a decade ago and never really recommended in the first place ;)
                          >
                          > Don't worry, the punishments for using standards compliant stuff are just
                          > as painful :)

                          True enough!

                          --
                          rjbs
                        • Bram Moolenaar
                          ... I ve made a few changes. Check out if this looks better. ... That s why it is on the side for the vim-online front page. I think that s a good idea, but
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 28, 2002
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                            Thomas Hurst wrote:

                            > > > There's a long bloated download page that's significantly more
                            > > > difficult to navigate than the ftp :)
                            > >
                            > > Do you mean the one on vim.sf.net (which I wrote) or Sven's? I have
                            > > tried to make the vim.sf.net one useful for all kinds of people. But
                            > > perhaps some items could be improved, please make specific remarks.
                            >
                            > Yours. The problem is it's indexed by filename template ("gvim##.exe",
                            > vim##rt.lha, etc) rather than what the files are ("Complete Installer",
                            > "Executables only"), which makes it non-obvious what file you actually
                            > need.

                            I've made a few changes. Check out if this looks better.

                            > > It's hard to fit all relevant info on the front page. Perhaps a few
                            > > alternatives can be sketched and the best solution selected.
                            >
                            > It can be assumed the user's only going to need to read the What Is
                            > stuff once; putting those on the main links bar in a prominant position
                            > and/or giving a very terse description on the front page (as I have on
                            > my design, although the content's purely filler for the layout) would
                            > probably be best.

                            That's why it is on the side for the vim-online front page. I think
                            that's a good idea, but there shouldn't be links there, because that
                            makes people confuse it with a navigation bar.

                            > It's your punishment for using a layout method that was depreciated half
                            > a decade ago and never really recommended in the first place ;)
                            >
                            > Don't worry, the punishments for using standards compliant stuff are just
                            > as painful :)

                            I'm glad we are not forced to write MS-Word files for web pages. :-)

                            --
                            hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                            22. You've already visited all the links at Yahoo and you're halfway through
                            Lycos.

                            /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.moolenaar.net \\\
                            /// Creator of Vim -- http://vim.sf.net -- ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim \\\
                            \\\ Project leader for A-A-P -- http://www.a-a-p.org ///
                            \\\ Help me helping AIDS orphans in Uganda - http://iccf-holland.org ///
                          • Ricardo SIGNES
                            ... I ve mirrored Sven s site, so I can go through them and find what is and isn t also available at vim.sf.net Is there a more appropriate list than this one
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 30, 2002
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                              On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 08:28:46AM -0500, Ricardo SIGNES wrote:
                              > > Some pages at the second level also need to be made. From several places
                              > > Sven's existing pages can be linked, at least for now.
                              >
                              > Agreed. Perhaps we could make a 'planned site map' and then implement it.
                              > That is, say we decide that we need a brief page outlining the history of vi
                              > and vim. We then put it somewhere on the map, and someone on the team gets it
                              > done.

                              I've mirrored Sven's site, so I can go through them and find what is and
                              isn't also available at vim.sf.net

                              Is there a more appropriate list than this one for these discussions?

                              --
                              rjbs
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