Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

72181Re: Vim development process is utterly broken (Was: Re: [patch] test98 stops when using gvim)

Expand Messages
  • Nikolay Pavlov
    Jul 14, 2013
    • 0 Attachment


      On Jul 15, 2013 3:02 AM, "Lech Lorens" <lech.lorens@...> wrote:
      >
      > On 14-Jul-2013 Bram Moolenaar <Bram@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Ken Takata wrote:
      > >
      > > > When I run the test 98 with gvim, it stops at the last line of test98a.in.
      > > >
      > > > > call feedkeys(":setl scb\n\<C-w>\<C-w>", 't')
      > > >
      > > > It seems that feedkeys() works different on CUI and GUI.
      > > > I don't know why the difference occurs, but using feedkeys()
      > > > is not necessary for this test. I think using "setl scb" and
      > > > "wincmd w" is enough.
      > > > Please check the attached patch.
      > >
      > > Thanks.  I also have no clue why feedkeys() was used here.
      >
      > Ken: sorry for including you here, even thought only a tiny bit is
      > a reply for you.
      >
      > I have been thinking about writing this email for at least a year now.
      > This patch is the straw that breaks the camel's back, so here it comes.
      >
      > feedkeys() is essential there.
      > Try re-running the test without the fix that was introduced along with
      > the test. Magic: the test succeeds even without the fix!
      > It took 9 days for the fix to be accepted for inclusion because you,
      > Bram, asked for a working test (one that would fail without the fix).
      > Now it takes 40 minutes (!!!) to have a patch included that breaks the
      > test and makes all my effort (I wrote how I needed to use gdb to come up
      > with a method that would reproduce the problem in a script) go to
      > a waste.
      >
      > I know, my bad for not putting in a comment, but the patches are
      > micromanaged to the point that the name of the file test96extra.in gets
      > renamed to test98a.in yet the very point of tests gets lost after only
      > 4 days (!!!) since inclusion! That's less time than it took me to
      > prepare the bloody test!
      >
      > Bram, don't get offended, I actually do hope that one day I will become as
      > competent a programmer as you are, but still I think Vim's development
      > process is severely broken:
      > - the single point of failure (Bram),
      > - how the decision what gets included is made with the community totally
      >   oblivious,
      > - we don't have a development branch of Vim because we want stability.
      >   Therefore the unaware users are without a single warning presented
      >   with 7.3.970 which breaks half of syntax scripts, makes the rest 10
      >   times slower, breaks regular expressions and introduces random
      >   crashes. Only after a number of patches and becoming stable is the
      >   only branch renamed to 7.4 alpha!
      > - we manage patches as files (as opposed to the distributed VCS way:
      >   pull requests) because it allegedly "just works". Yet there was
      >   a spell of a few weeks where every single week there was at least one
      >   patch which was either applied twice, applied only partly or applied
      >   to a wrong part of code. How can it "just work" if it so obviously
      >   doesn't work?

      Just in case somebody missed previous threads on the similar topic:
      - https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/vim_dev/OlkOgDEDAq0
      - https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/vim_dev/hAg_60fEdvM
      - https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/vim_dev/78RMC7ajGfE

      > All this means that a lot of effort of developers goes to a waste:
      > - because Bram can't (how could he possibly? He's a man: he needs to
      >   eat, to sleep and to rest) evaluate all the possible patches and they
      >   are added to the mythical todo.txt which means their changes of
      >   getting included drop to almost 0,
      > - even though a patch got to todo.txt (and therefore will not be
      >   included) people still work on it because they believe it will,
      > - people prepare a patch to fix something, a fix is published but the
      >   solution has been totally rewritten; not a single word of explanation
      >   is given,
      > - people prepare a patch, it gets included but for some reason the bug
      >   doesn't go away. I recently had to re-debug Vim after my fix got
      >   included only to discover that a line from my patch was not included.
      >   The funny thing was that I did include a test and this single stable
      >   branch of Vim was published with a failing test.
      >
      > For some reason how people waste their time is OK because they volunteer
      > to waste their time, they are the guilty ones. But it also means that
      > Bram's time gets wasted:
      > - he needs to update todo.txt,
      > - he won't explain what was wrong with a patch so people will submit
      >   those incorrect patches which Bram will have to rewrite,
      > - he needs to fix the problems with the mis-applied patches.
      >
      > I used the pronoun "we" to mean "community" but the sorry state of Vim
      > development community is that IT DOES NOT EXIST. "Community" implies
      > a N-to-M relation between its members where N,M > 1. Here it's
      > a one-to-many relation between Bram and multiple patch submitters
      > because Bram has to evaluate every single patch. This means there's very
      > little incentive to examine each other's work (I will check your patch,
      > this way you will be more likely to check mine). That's why these
      > I-would-appreciate-it-if-some-people-tried-it-out emails from Bram get
      > so little response (and because people know that their work might go to
      > a waste). People work to scratch their own itches; there's no point in
      > scratching the itches of others.
      >
      > I could write more but I think there's no point – this already got quite
      > long. I believe these things drive people away from Vim development or
      > make them one-time contributors. There used to be a nice small community
      > of contributors to vim-extended. We produced a number of stable, well
      > tested (we – as in more than an I – used them on daily basis!) features,
      > most of which got abandoned (because there was no change of them going
      > into mainline Vim. Instead the (still buggy) conceal feature got
      > included because someone convinced Bram it would be nice to be able turn
      > a text editor into e.g. a web browser. Some bugs simply got renamed as
      > features and everyone's happy.
      >
      > I don't know why I'm writing this. I don't hope this email will change
      > anything. I *AM SORRY* and perhaps I believe that sharing will somehow
      > help me. I am a contributor of around 50-100 patches to Vim, I've been
      > here for 5 years and I don't feel I'm being taken seriously. I know
      > there are many others that will come and replace me, people whose work
      > could replace what I have done (I have seen one of the issues in
      > todo.txt solved 3 times before it got removed from todo.txt) but this
      > doesn't make it any less wrong. I don't deserve it. And I don't deserve
      > to have this email ignored.
      >
      > Lech Lorens
      >
      > --
      > --
      > You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
      > Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
      > For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
      >
      > ---
      > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
      > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
      > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
      >
      >

      --
      --
      You received this message from the "vim_dev" maillist.
      Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
      For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
       
      ---
      You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_dev" group.
      To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vim_dev+unsubscribe@....
      For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
       
       
    • Show all 27 messages in this topic