Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Expand Messages
  • fREW
    ... I think you are right about the comments. It doesn t look like the best thing ever, but it will work fine for a wiki. People will probably leave off the
    Message 1 of 19 , May 15, 2007
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      On 5/15/07, Tom Purl <tom@...> wrote:
      > Task: Wiki Format Sign-Off
      > Deadline: Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
      >
      > Overview
      > ========
      >
      > We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
      > will be creating and editing tips in the future. Before we can finally
      > decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a page
      > format for tips.
      >
      > The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
      > following URL:
      >
      > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
      >
      > The following tips should stand out:
      >
      > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
      > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
      >
      > This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
      > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip uses
      > the Template:Tip2 template
      > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
      >
      > Requested Actions
      > =================
      >
      > Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
      > provide constructive criticism for that tip's format. There's no such
      > thing as a dumb comment.
      >
      > My Two Cents
      > ============
      >
      > I really like VimTip1_v2, which uses the Tip2 template. Here's what I
      > like:
      >
      > * No special formatting for commands or any other preformatted text. I
      > think that this is an essential requirement for the initial conversion
      > effort.
      > * Easy to read
      > * Succinct
      >
      > How do you want to handle comments? Typically on a Mediawiki site, you
      > sign you comments like so:
      >
      > This is so cool! ~~~~
      > ----
      >
      > Which is then saved to the page like this:
      >
      > This is so cool! Tpurl 15:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > It's a little ugly, but it's the norm in the wiki world.
      >
      > What do you guys think?
      >
      > Tom Purl
      >
      >

      I think you are right about the comments. It doesn't look like the
      best thing ever, but it will work fine for a wiki. People will
      probably leave off the ~~~~ sometimes and that will probably be
      something that we will have to live with. I think that there is
      probably a way that we can make a reminder for people to put that
      there after comments, but I don't think we could easily require it.
      Also, it should be obvious that I prefer the Tip2 template ;-)

      -fREW
    • Martin Krischik
      ... I like Template 2 more. ... Comment should go to the discussion page. There ugly signatures won t matter there. Also comments are often threaded - which is
      Message 2 of 19 , May 15, 2007
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Am Dienstag 15 Mai 2007 schrieb Tom Purl:

        > Task: Wiki Format Sign-Off
        > Deadline: Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)

        I like Template 2 more.

        > How do you want to handle comments? Typically on a Mediawiki site, you
        > sign you comments like so:
        >
        > This is so cool! ~~~~
        > ----
        >
        > Which is then saved to the page like this:
        >
        > This is so cool! Tpurl 15:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
        >
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >-----
        >
        > It's a little ugly, but it's the norm in the wiki world.

        Comment should go to the discussion page. There ugly signatures won't matter
        there. Also comments are often threaded - which is even uglier - but again -
        won't matter that much on the discussion page.

        The Main page should only contain the clean and simple tip.

        Martin
        --
        Martin Krischik
        mailto://krischik@...
      • Gary Johnson
        ... I much prefer VimTip1 v2 . Whether just browsing tips or reading tips I ve searched for, I want to be able to read it quickly without having to scan
        Message 3 of 19 , May 15, 2007
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          On 2007-05-15, Tom Purl <tom@...> wrote:
          > Task: Wiki Format Sign-Off
          > Deadline: Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
          >
          > Overview
          > ========
          >
          > We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
          > will be creating and editing tips in the future. Before we can finally
          > decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a page
          > format for tips.
          >
          > The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
          > following URL:
          >
          > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
          >
          > The following tips should stand out:
          >
          > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
          > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
          >
          > This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
          > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip uses
          > the Template:Tip2 template
          > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
          >
          > Requested Actions
          > =================
          >
          > Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
          > provide constructive criticism for that tip's format. There's no such
          > thing as a dumb comment.

          I much prefer "VimTip1 v2". Whether just browsing tips or reading
          tips I've searched for, I want to be able to read it quickly without
          having to scan through a bunch of boilerplate. I would even
          advocate a Synopsis line that would summarize the tip if the title
          didn't already do so. I like having the meta data collected as it
          is in one line at the bottom of the tip: it's concise and in an
          unobtrusive yet consistent and easy-to-find location.

          In the table of contents, each tip really needs to have the title
          alongside its number. The first page,
          http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest, is lacking that, unless
          the names there (e.g., VimTip123) are just place holders for real
          titles. I really don't want to have to load each tip page one at a
          time to browse the latest contributions.

          My $0.02.

          Regards,
          Gary

          --
          Gary Johnson | Agilent Technologies
          garyjohn@... | Mobile Broadband Division
          | Spokane, Washington, USA
        • fREW
          ... I don t know how to add pages to that dynamic page there if they have already been created, but I made [1] with template [2] so that it would work better
          Message 4 of 19 , May 15, 2007
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            On 5/15/07, Gary Johnson <garyjohn@...> wrote:
            > On 2007-05-15, Tom Purl <tom@...> wrote:
            > > Task: Wiki Format Sign-Off
            > > Deadline: Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
            > >
            > > Overview
            > > ========
            > >
            > > We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
            > > will be creating and editing tips in the future. Before we can finally
            > > decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a page
            > > format for tips.
            > >
            > > The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
            > > following URL:
            > >
            > > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
            > >
            > > The following tips should stand out:
            > >
            > > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
            > > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
            > >
            > > This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
            > > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip uses
            > > the Template:Tip2 template
            > > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
            > >
            > > Requested Actions
            > > =================
            > >
            > > Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
            > > provide constructive criticism for that tip's format. There's no such
            > > thing as a dumb comment.
            >
            > I much prefer "VimTip1 v2". Whether just browsing tips or reading
            > tips I've searched for, I want to be able to read it quickly without
            > having to scan through a bunch of boilerplate. I would even
            > advocate a Synopsis line that would summarize the tip if the title
            > didn't already do so. I like having the meta data collected as it
            > is in one line at the bottom of the tip: it's concise and in an
            > unobtrusive yet consistent and easy-to-find location.
            >
            > In the table of contents, each tip really needs to have the title
            > alongside its number. The first page,
            > http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest, is lacking that, unless
            > the names there (e.g., VimTip123) are just place holders for real
            > titles. I really don't want to have to load each tip page one at a
            > time to browse the latest contributions.
            >
            > My $0.02.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Gary
            >
            > --
            > Gary Johnson | Agilent Technologies
            > garyjohn@... | Mobile Broadband Division
            > | Spokane, Washington, USA
            >

            I don't know how to add pages to that dynamic page there if they have
            already been created, but I made [1] with template [2] so that it
            would work better if you just wanted to see the titles of pages. The
            only problem is that this would require more work if we wanted to
            scrape the wiki at some point. Anyway, if we WERE to do this, this is
            how I envision it working:
            1: User creates a new page using Template:Tip3 (or 2 or whatever)
            2: They leave the id blank because it will be ignored
            3: At some specified interval, a cron job runs that will scrape the
            source of any newly created pages and sort them in a chronological
            list
            4: The program in the cron job moves each new tip to: #{generated id} - #{title}

            And then we could probably have another program that would run say,
            once a week that would iterate through the entire tip list ensuring
            that people didn't do something silly, like change the numbers. I
            presume that we would have to use the history and then look at the
            initial creation of the page to ensure correct times and whatnot.

            I can still see why we would want to use the format:
            Tip1
            Tip2
            ...
            Tip10
            ...
            but it makes sense to have the names show the titles (or more
            obviously, the titles should BE the names).

            What do you guys think?
            [1] http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/1_-_the_super_star
            [2] http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip3
          • Brian McKee
            ... Hash: SHA1 ... I have to say that I prefer the Metadata at the top, but I agree the giant table is a bit much. How about a blend of the two? I quickly
            Message 5 of 19 , May 15, 2007
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
              Hash: SHA1

              On 15-May-07, at 3:02 PM, Gary Johnson wrote:

              >>
              >> Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and
              >> then
              >> provide constructive criticism for that tip's format. There's no
              >> such
              >> thing as a dumb comment.
              >
              > I much prefer "VimTip1 v2". Whether just browsing tips or reading
              > tips I've searched for, I want to be able to read it quickly without
              > having to scan through a bunch of boilerplate. I would even
              > advocate a Synopsis line that would summarize the tip if the title
              > didn't already do so. I like having the meta data collected as it
              > is in one line at the bottom of the tip: it's concise and in an
              > unobtrusive yet consistent and easy-to-find location.

              I have to say that I prefer the Metadata at the top, but I agree the
              giant table is a bit much.
              How about a blend of the two?

              I quickly created http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip4
              but I didn't figure out how to get tip 1 to use that template.
              Editing tip 1 starts editing the template. - Where do I assign it....

              Brian
              -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
              Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin)
              Comment: Verify this email or encrypt your email for free - see gnupg.org

              iD8DBQFGShSLGnOmb9xIQHQRAtwPAJ0YpRmcsTStjZ2AUyBGb8mFYecalwCgx3Cz
              CM35zURSnPRsWu7zYO0/QWk=
              =/vcf
              -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
            • Zdenek Sekera
              ... My preference goes to the v2, more concise. ... - Tip2 template is seems fine to me. - Who will or how it will be decided what are the different
              Message 6 of 19 , May 16, 2007
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Tom Purl [mailto:tom@...]
                > Sent: 15 May 2007 17:24
                > To: vim@...
                > Subject: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline
                >
                > Task: Wiki Format Sign-Off
                > Deadline: Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
                >
                > Overview
                > ========
                >
                > We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
                > will be creating and editing tips in the future. Before we can finally
                > decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a
                > page
                > format for tips.
                >
                > The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
                > following URL:
                >
                > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
                >
                > The following tips should stand out:
                >
                > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
                > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
                >

                My preference goes to the v2, more concise.

                > This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
                > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip
                > uses
                > the Template:Tip2 template
                > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
                >

                - Tip2 template is seems fine to me.
                - Who will or how it will be decided what are the different
                'complexity' (what terms will be allowed)?
                - I find little inconvenient that when I want to add a comment
                I can't have the original tip (and perhaps other comments)
                in front of my eyes (maybe to scroll it manually) but that
                may be unsolvable
                - it could be useful to have a possibility to have a button
                saying 'Add a new tip' on every tip page so when I want
                to add a tip I don't have to start from a different page.
                That, too, may not be possible, correct?


                > Requested Actions
                > =================
                >
                > Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
                > provide constructive criticism for that tip's format. There's no such
                > thing as a dumb comment.
                >
                > My Two Cents
                > ============
                >
                > I really like VimTip1_v2, which uses the Tip2 template. Here's what I
                > like:
                >
                > * No special formatting for commands or any other preformatted text. I
                > think that this is an essential requirement for the initial
                > conversion
                > effort.
                > * Easy to read
                > * Succinct
                >

                Just what I meant above.

                > How do you want to handle comments? Typically on a Mediawiki site, you
                > sign you comments like so:
                >
                > This is so cool! ~~~~
                > ----
                >
                > Which is then saved to the page like this:
                >
                > This is so cool! Tpurl 15:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                > -------------
                >
                > It's a little ugly, but it's the norm in the wiki world.
                >
                > What do you guys think?

                :-) little ugly, yes. Alternatives?

                The whole thing seems to really be moving now in the right
                direction IMHO. Keep it up!

                Cheers,

                ---Zdenek
              • Sebastian Menge
                ... I also vote for v2 (though i wrote v1 :-) ) And lets dont forget, that the layout of the template can be changed always at a later time. So its no problem
                Message 7 of 19 , May 16, 2007
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Am Mittwoch, den 16.05.2007, 09:43 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Sekera:
                  > - Tip2 template is seems fine to me.
                  > - Who will or how it will be decided what are the different
                  > 'complexity' (what terms will be allowed)?

                  I also vote for v2 (though i wrote v1 :-) )

                  And lets dont forget, that the layout of the template can be changed
                  always at a later time. So its no problem if we use a suboptimal
                  template for the beginning ... More important is that the fields keep
                  consistent ...


                  > - I find little inconvenient that when I want to add a comment
                  > I can't have the original tip (and perhaps other comments)
                  > in front of my eyes (maybe to scroll it manually) but that
                  > may be unsolvable
                  > - it could be useful to have a possibility to have a button
                  > saying 'Add a new tip' on every tip page so when I want
                  > to add a tip I don't have to start from a different page.
                  > That, too, may not be possible, correct?

                  There is already a "Add Tip" Button on
                  http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest . If you try that out, you will
                  find some instructions on the top. These are freely editable at
                  http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TipInstructions .

                  When using this "AddTip" approach, people have to invent their own
                  pagename. (autoincrementig the tip-id seems to be impossible)

                  Therefore, I would vote for using tip-title == page-title and let the
                  categorization be done by [[Category:VimTip]]. Using Wikipedia standards
                  (CamelCaseIsUgly) we would get pages like "The Super Star" and we could
                  reuse the title in the template. We would loose the tip-id for new tips.
                  But that seems to be unavoidable. And what is the id good for anyways?
                  Using a cron job to convert tips wont work, because we have no access to
                  the host.

                  Sebastian.
                • A. S. Budden
                  ... [snip] ... My vote definitely goes for version two (which seems to correspond with most people on the list). The nice thing about using a template though,
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 16, 2007
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On 15/05/07, Tom Purl <tom@...> wrote:
                    > Task: Wiki Format Sign-Off
                    > Deadline: Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
                    >
                    > Overview
                    > ========
                    >
                    > We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
                    > will be creating and editing tips in the future. Before we can finally
                    > decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a page
                    > format for tips.
                    >
                    > The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
                    > following URL:
                    >
                    > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
                    >
                    > The following tips should stand out:
                    >
                    > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
                    > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
                    >
                    > This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
                    > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip uses
                    > the Template:Tip2 template
                    > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
                    >
                    > Requested Actions
                    > =================
                    >
                    > Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
                    > provide constructive criticism for that tip's format. There's no such
                    > thing as a dumb comment.
                    [snip]
                    > What do you guys think?

                    My vote definitely goes for version two (which seems to correspond
                    with most people on the list). The nice thing about using a template
                    though, is that if at some point later down the line a change is
                    considered desirable, the template can be changed and hopefully this
                    will update all the tips (depending on how drastic the change is of
                    course!)

                    I guess this is either me being daft or something strange about the
                    setup, but at the moment, if you click the "edit" button on the
                    right-hand side in line with either "Comments" or "Tip: #1 - the super
                    star", it edits the template rather than the tip!

                    Regards,

                    Al
                  • John Beckett
                    ... Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you point out, there is no
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 16, 2007
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Sebastian Menge wrote:
                      > Therefore, I would vote for using tip-title == page-title and
                      > let the categorization be done by [[Category:VimTip]]. Using
                      > Wikipedia standards (CamelCaseIsUgly) we would get pages like
                      > "The Super Star" and we could reuse the title in the template.
                      > We would lose the tip-id for new tips.

                      Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
                      is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
                      point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.

                      But more than that. I hope that the wiki tips really will be
                      edited and improved. Currently, there are lots of tips that are
                      of very marginal value, and there are several related tips.

                      I hope that unhelpful tips will be brutally deleted, and related
                      tips will be merged (if that doesn't make the new tip too big).
                      In other words, we should end up with many missing tip numbers.

                      If all tips are retained for nostalgic reasons, the usefulness
                      of the whole site will be reduced due to the growing amount of
                      cruft that would obscure the helpful tips.

                      Re the tip URL, what would you recommend for this:
                      List of text editors
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_text_editors

                      Will it be possible to edit the URL of a link, in order to
                      simplify it? For example, I don't like:
                      Optimization (mathematics)
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimization_%28mathematics%29

                      I've seen much worse URLs, but can't find one now.

                      John
                    • Gene Kwiecinski
                      ... Is there any equivalent to javascript s document.lastModified? Can create a serial number based on the date of submission, then rearrange by fields to a
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 16, 2007
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
                        >is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
                        >point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.

                        Is there any equivalent to javascript's document.lastModified?

                        Can create a "serial number" based on the date of submission, then
                        rearrange by fields to a sortable ID, eg 2007.05.15.23.53 for a tip
                        created yesterday at 23:53.

                        Don't need dots, or hyphens, or anything, as 2007051523353 would be
                        fine, too. The odds of having 2 tips be submitted in the same minute
                        would be remote.
                      • A.J.Mechelynck
                        ... I don t think so. A minute is sixty seconds, and sooner or later we ll have two different users submitting tips less than sixty (or even thirty) seconds
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 16, 2007
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Gene Kwiecinski wrote:
                          >> Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
                          >> is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
                          >> point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.
                          >
                          > Is there any equivalent to javascript's document.lastModified?
                          >
                          > Can create a "serial number" based on the date of submission, then
                          > rearrange by fields to a sortable ID, eg 2007.05.15.23.53 for a tip
                          > created yesterday at 23:53.
                          >
                          > Don't need dots, or hyphens, or anything, as 2007051523353 would be
                          > fine, too. The odds of having 2 tips be submitted in the same minute
                          > would be remote.
                          >
                          >

                          I don't think so. A minute is sixty seconds, and sooner or later we'll have
                          two different users submitting tips less than sixty (or even thirty) seconds
                          away from each other. Even adding the seconds to the ID doesn't clear the
                          problem, it lowers the probability but doesn't make it zero. With enough
                          Vimmers adding tips, sooner or later there'll be a clash.


                          Best regards,
                          Tony.
                          --
                          If the odds are a million to one against something occurring, chances
                          are 50-50 it will.
                        • fREW
                          ... I still think we could automate it with a cron job. It doesn t have to be run on wikia. I don t think it would be that hard to scrape and moving a tip is
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 16, 2007
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On 5/16/07, A.J.Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:
                            > Gene Kwiecinski wrote:
                            > >> Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
                            > >> is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
                            > >> point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.
                            > >
                            > > Is there any equivalent to javascript's document.lastModified?
                            > >
                            > > Can create a "serial number" based on the date of submission, then
                            > > rearrange by fields to a sortable ID, eg 2007.05.15.23.53 for a tip
                            > > created yesterday at 23:53.
                            > >
                            > > Don't need dots, or hyphens, or anything, as 2007051523353 would be
                            > > fine, too. The odds of having 2 tips be submitted in the same minute
                            > > would be remote.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > I don't think so. A minute is sixty seconds, and sooner or later we'll have
                            > two different users submitting tips less than sixty (or even thirty) seconds
                            > away from each other. Even adding the seconds to the ID doesn't clear the
                            > problem, it lowers the probability but doesn't make it zero. With enough
                            > Vimmers adding tips, sooner or later there'll be a clash.
                            >
                            >
                            > Best regards,
                            > Tony.
                            > --
                            > If the odds are a million to one against something occurring, chances
                            > are 50-50 it will.
                            >

                            I still think we could automate it with a cron job. It doesn't have
                            to be run on wikia. I don't think it would be that hard to scrape and
                            moving a tip is even simpler. So you just move all the tips created
                            since the last run of the cron job and move them to "$id - $title"

                            -fREW
                          • Martin Krischik
                            ... But do we need an id? - each tip will have a page name which will be unique. Personally - when I see such question - I begin to think that the Vim Wiki
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 16, 2007
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Am Mittwoch 16 Mai 2007 schrieb John Beckett:

                              > Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
                              > is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
                              > point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.

                              But do we need an id? - each tip will have a page name which will be unique.

                              Personally - when I see such question - I begin to think that the Vim Wiki
                              will die soon - again!

                              "Content first" is makes Wikis successfull. The "Vim Wiki" project is talking
                              to much about ID numbers, templates, organization etc. pp. without producing
                              any content.

                              "Ada Programming" has not have become "Book of the Month", "Features Book" and
                              is generally quoted as an one of the best Wikibooks around (Even from those
                              who don't program in Ada) because we discussed for weeks about structural
                              details.

                              In fact: Almost nothing was discussed longer then 3 days and if there was no
                              *stiff* opposition then one of the Authors went ahead and just did it. And
                              lots of stuff was never discussed: Somebody just did it and the other fell in
                              line - plainly because it was a good idea.

                              Martin
                              --
                              Martin Krischik
                              mailto://krischik@...
                            • John Beckett
                              ... IMHO you are correct - we should NOT have a tip id. I m not sure what is feasible, but here is my ideal: - Import current tip_nr into the template. -
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 17, 2007
                              View Source
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Martin Krischik wrote:
                                > But do we need an id? - each tip will have a page name
                                > which will be unique.

                                IMHO you are correct - we should NOT have a tip id.

                                I'm not sure what is feasible, but here is my ideal:
                                - Import current tip_nr into the template.
                                - Display tip_nr near the top of the tip, very modestly.
                                - When we're ready to abandon ids, stop displaying tip_nr.

                                > "Content first" is makes Wikis successfull. The "Vim Wiki"
                                > project is talking to much about ID numbers, templates,
                                > organization etc. pp. without producing any content.

                                You're talking a lot of sense, Martin. However, someone is going
                                to import 1500 tips, so I can put up with a bit more planning.
                                But if there's no action before June, I think it would be
                                reasonable to despair<g>.

                                John
                              • Gene Kwiecinski
                                ... have ... seconds ... the ... enough ... Okay, so can probably have something like if exist N N++ to make sure that when naming (?) a tip, there s no
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 17, 2007
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  >>Is there any equivalent to javascript's document.lastModified?
                                  >>Can create a "serial number" based on the date of submission, then
                                  >>rearrange by fields to a sortable ID, eg 2007.05.15.23.53 for a tip
                                  >>created yesterday at 23:53.
                                  >>Don't need dots, or hyphens, or anything, as 2007051523353 would be
                                  >>fine, too. The odds of having 2 tips be submitted in the same minute
                                  >>would be remote.

                                  >I don't think so. A minute is sixty seconds, and sooner or later we'll
                                  have
                                  >two different users submitting tips less than sixty (or even thirty)
                                  seconds
                                  >away from each other. Even adding the seconds to the ID doesn't clear
                                  the
                                  >problem, it lowers the probability but doesn't make it zero. With
                                  enough
                                  >Vimmers adding tips, sooner or later there'll be a clash.

                                  Okay, so can probably have something like

                                  if exist N
                                  N++

                                  to make sure that when "naming"(?) a tip, there's no name-collision.
                                  Gotta be *somewhere* to put in the smarts to avoid name-collisions, no?

                                  Or if each tip is a file, then a name-collision would be attempting to
                                  overwrite an existing file, and a cookie or something could make sure
                                  that doesn't happen, ie, only write the actual tip you're working on.

                                  Like I said, I have no idea about the mechanisms in use to create wikis
                                  or edit entries, etc., so I'm just flinging ideas at the wall to see
                                  what sticks, if anything. Someone more versed in wikiing might put 2+2
                                  together and say, "Hey, we might not be able to do *that*, but along
                                  those lines, we might be able to do *this*...", and viola! (or cello, or
                                  some other stringed instrument...)
                                • Gene Kwiecinski
                                  ... Hey, that s what *I* said... :D
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 17, 2007
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    >In fact: Almost nothing was discussed longer then 3 days and
                                    >if there was no *stiff* opposition then one of the Authors
                                    >went ahead and just did it. And lots of stuff was never
                                    >discussed: Somebody just did it and the other fell in line -
                                    >plainly because it was a good idea.

                                    Hey, that's what *I* said... :D
                                  • Sebastian Menge
                                    ... OK, it s May 21st. I reviewed all the contributions and will try to summarize everything in one mail. 1.) Layout - Template 2 is strongly preferred. -
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 21, 2007
                                    View Source
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 10:23 -0500 schrieb Tom Purl:
                                      > Task: Wiki Format Sign-Off
                                      > Deadline: Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)

                                      OK, it's May 21st.

                                      I reviewed all the contributions and will try to summarize everything in
                                      one mail.

                                      1.) Layout
                                      - Template 2 is strongly preferred.
                                      - perhaps Metadata in front like in Template 4
                                      - Comments should go on the same page under the assumption, that these
                                      comments will finally find their way into the main tip. The
                                      discussion-page should be used for meta-communication about future of
                                      this tip (e.g. merging with another tip ?)
                                      - comments should be done as in wikipedia: ~~~~ to sign and ---- to
                                      separate comments
                                      - everything should fit on one page, no scrolling

                                      The other thing was how to handle page-titles. Two concurring
                                      approaches:

                                      2.) Drop the id for new tips, use old ids just to redirect.
                                      - We would need guidelines to get nice titles (no '(' and ')' )
                                      - Should be easy to remember: "See tip #1" would get "See tip
                                      "the_super_star"

                                      3.) Use some scripting to keep ids, e.g. via a cron job that tidies up
                                      each night or a javascript that uses a timestamp.

                                      My (subjective!) impression is that 2.) is slightly before 3.)
                                      Especially when it comes to the question who will write/host the scripts
                                      (and assure that they will work for a long time)?

                                      =======================

                                      Now for my two cents:

                                      Write the things we learned into some guideline-page. I will start that
                                      tonight.

                                      Simply use the template 2 as suggested in 1.) and use 2.) as the
                                      approach for page titles. Layout issues of the template can be discussed
                                      in the respective discussion page. Long and ugly titles can be changed
                                      later as follows:

                                      At import time, add a "coloured box" to each page saying that the tip
                                      has been imported by a script and should be reviewed by a human. The box
                                      should contain a link to the guidelines. After Review, the box can be
                                      removed.

                                      Conversion of HTML in Tip-Text. This should be converted to wiki markup
                                      in the long run. Either we get a good script (some real regex guru
                                      around?) that does it at import (which would delay the whole thing
                                      again ...), or we refer in the above mentioned box to the guidelines
                                      frew posted some days ago.

                                      A problem are tips that contain URLs to external sites (e.g. other tips)
                                      This is regarded as spam by mediawiki (captcha). Though the URLs are
                                      clean (since someone edited them before) we have to either import these
                                      tips by hand or convert all <a hrefs> in the script.

                                      If no one votes strongly against this I would like that this week.
                                      Silence is taken as agreement ;-)

                                      Regards, Sebastian

                                      --
                                      I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.

                                      Douglas Adams
                                    • John Beckett
                                      ... Thanks for keeping this moving. I m happy with what you said, but here are some comments. Please disregard all this and just do it, if you can t stand my
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 22, 2007
                                      View Source
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Sebastian Menge wrote:
                                        > [...very helpful summary for Vim Wiki...]

                                        Thanks for keeping this moving. I'm happy with what you said,
                                        but here are some comments. Please disregard all this and just
                                        do it, if you can't stand my detail at the moment!

                                        > everything should fit on one page, no scrolling

                                        That would be an aim, but clearly it can't be enforced by the
                                        initial import (although it does mean that any information box
                                        should be at the end of the tip).

                                        > 2.) Drop the id for new tips, use old ids just to redirect.

                                        Good, but let's have a specific example. How about:

                                        ---Current example---
                                        URL: http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
                                        Title: Tip: #1 - the super star

                                        ---What we want---
                                        URL: http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/the_super_star
                                        Title: The super star

                                        The import script should change the tip title as above.
                                        -Or- Do we want to keep the (obsolete!) tip number?

                                        ---Also have a redirect page---
                                        URL: http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/vimtip1

                                        Page content (I'm not sure if syntax is correct):

                                        #REDIRECT [[the_super_star]]

                                        ---Example of new tip---
                                        URL: http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/my_great_new_tip
                                        Title: My great new tip
                                        (there would be no tip number and no redirect page)


                                        > 3.) Use some scripting to keep ids, e.g. via a cron job that
                                        > tidies up each night or a javascript that uses a timestamp.

                                        I think you are saying that this is not a good plan. I agree
                                        that we cannot realistically have an automated process run on
                                        someone's computer to edit wiki pages. We'll have to plan so
                                        there is no need to automate adjustments.

                                        Tony mentioned the possibility of a wiki robot, but I guess that
                                        we would not be able to use such a feature, unless we knew a
                                        friendly administrator (hi Martin!).

                                        > Layout issues of the template can be discussed in the
                                        > respective discussion page.

                                        Let's not do that yet. I suggest we keep all discussion here
                                        until the wiki is imported. After the first import, let's
                                        discuss it here and agree "yes". Once that is done, those who
                                        are willing can discuss details on the wiki discussion pages.

                                        > Conversion of HTML in Tip-Text. This should be converted to
                                        > wiki markup in the long run.

                                        Please - let's do it in the import script! Anything else would
                                        be a heap of unrewarding and unending work. The script could
                                        convert simple cases, and maybe flag awkward cases for manual
                                        attention.

                                        We have had three fantastic scripts (I think it's three) that
                                        were produced very quickly. Someone needs to pick one and ask
                                        the author if they are willing to make adjustments.

                                        > A problem are tips that contain URLs to external sites
                                        > (e.g. other tips)

                                        Fix this in the import script as well:
                                        - Links to tips should be adjusted to wiki format.
                                        - Links to external sites should be converted to plain text
                                        for later review.

                                        I like Martin Krischik's suggestion that we use the vi wikibooks
                                        where he is an administrator. However, we would get really ugly
                                        URLs - I think something like (one line!):

                                        http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/Tips_and_Tricks/the_super_star

                                        Maybe Martin has a suggestion to improve that.

                                        I also saw a comment that wikia would provide additional
                                        benefits over wikibooks (I don't quite understand this):
                                        a complete wiki, not just a bunch of pages

                                        To do:
                                        - Discuss here for, say, three more days.
                                        - Import ten tips.
                                        - Discuss for another three days.
                                        - Import all tips.

                                        John
                                      • Tom Purl
                                        ... I am able to add links to external web sites to a page without going through a captcha on the wikia site. If we do end up using the wikia site, I can run
                                        Message 19 of 19 , May 22, 2007
                                        View Source
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On Mon, May 21, 2007 10:16 am, Sebastian Menge wrote:
                                          > A problem are tips that contain URLs to external sites (e.g. other tips)
                                          > This is regarded as spam by mediawiki (captcha). Though the URLs are
                                          > clean (since someone edited them before) we have to either import these
                                          > tips by hand or convert all <a hrefs> in the script.

                                          I am able to add links to external web sites to a page without going
                                          through a captcha on the wikia site. If we do end up using the wikia
                                          site, I can run the conversion script and avoid a lot of the obstacles
                                          that are affecting the rest of you.

                                          Thanks,

                                          Tom Purl
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.