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  • Sebastian Menge
    ... There was already a lot of discussion on this topic but no real decision. I think that mediawiki is accepted as the most stable, feature-rich and
    Message 1 of 9 , May 15, 2007
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      Am Montag, den 14.05.2007, 21:49 +0200 schrieb Martin Krischik:
      > Now refresh my mind: Why did we choose advertising ridden wikea over
      > advertising free wikibooks?

      There was already a lot of discussion on this topic but no real
      decision. I think that mediawiki is accepted as the most stable,
      feature-rich and spam-resistant software around.

      Given that we dont want to host the wiki ourselves, we need a hosting
      service: Here's a list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_farms
      There are no mediawiki-based offers that are completely free.

      If someone has an idea where/howto host a mediawiki completey free, that
      would be best!

      Here my pros and cons for wikia vs wikibooks:

      1 +wikia: no costs
      2 +wikia: a complete wiki, not just a bunch of pages
      3 -wikia: ads

      4 +wikibooks: really free, open content
      5 -wikibooks: is intended for books/lecture material. vim tips doesnt
      fit that. A real book would need a structure in chapters,sections etc.

      For me points 2 and 5 win. But anyway I would love to see a good VimBook
      on wikibooks.

      Other ideas/votes?

      Sebastian.
    • Martin Krischik
      ... 6 +wikibooks: personal Administrator. ... Now on WikiBook there is allready a real book with structure in chapters, sections ;-) - it s called
      Message 2 of 9 , May 15, 2007
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        Am Dienstag 15 Mai 2007 schrieb Sebastian Menge:
        > Am Montag, den 14.05.2007, 21:49 +0200 schrieb Martin Krischik:
        > > Now refresh my mind: Why did we choose advertising ridden wikea over
        > > advertising free wikibooks?
        >
        > There was already a lot of discussion on this topic but no real
        > decision. I think that mediawiki is accepted as the most stable,
        > feature-rich and spam-resistant software around.
        >
        > Given that we dont want to host the wiki ourselves, we need a hosting
        > service: Here's a list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_farms
        > There are no mediawiki-based offers that are completely free.
        >
        > If someone has an idea where/howto host a mediawiki completey free, that
        > would be best!
        >
        > Here my pros and cons for wikia vs wikibooks:
        >
        > 1 +wikia: no costs
        > 2 +wikia: a complete wiki, not just a bunch of pages
        > 3 -wikia: ads
        >
        > 4 +wikibooks: really free, open content
        > 5 -wikibooks: is intended for books/lecture material. vim tips doesnt
        > fit that. A real book would need a structure in chapters,sections etc.

        6 +wikibooks: "personal" Administrator.

        > For me points 2 and 5 win. But anyway I would love to see a good VimBook
        > on wikibooks.
        >
        > Other ideas/votes?

        Now on WikiBook there is allready a "real book" with structure in chapters,
        sections ;-) - it's called "Learning the vi editor". Of the 16 chapters 7
        are Vim chapters :-). And I belive Vim covers more the 50% of the content.

        Now the Wiki motto is "Content first" so here my advertising free suggestion:

        1) We add the Vim tips to the "Tips and Tricks" Chapter
        2) Once we we have enough tips (content) we split the book.

        Wikibooks does not ask you to create "structure in chapters,sections" up
        front. It is not even suggested! Suggested is "Content first" and "structure
        in chapters,sections" later.

        BTW: With a tabbed browser and a fast internet connection you can rename 10
        pages per minute - I once rename a 200 page book from "Programming:Ada"
        to "Ada Programming".

        Martin

        [1] http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor
        [2] http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/Tips_and_Tricks
        --
        Martin Krischik
        mailto://krischik@...
      • Dmitriy Yamkovoy
        ... You could probably do this faster with Perl::Mechanize and a little scripting :D -dpy
        Message 3 of 9 , May 17, 2007
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          > BTW: With a tabbed browser and a fast internet connection you can rename 10
          > pages per minute - I once rename a 200 page book from "Programming:Ada"
          > to "Ada Programming".
          >

          You could probably do this faster with Perl::Mechanize and a little scripting :D

          -dpy
        • Martin Krischik
          ... Have a look at my Wikibooks Userpage - the pink box is the interesting one ;-) : http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Krischik Martin -- Martin Krischik
          Message 4 of 9 , May 17, 2007
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            Am Donnerstag 17 Mai 2007 schrieb Dmitriy Yamkovoy:
            > > BTW: With a tabbed browser and a fast internet connection you can rename
            > > 10 pages per minute - I once rename a 200 page book from
            > > "Programming:Ada" to "Ada Programming".
            >
            > You could probably do this faster with Perl::Mechanize and a little
            > scripting :D

            Have a look at my Wikibooks Userpage - the pink box is the interesting
            one ;-) :

            http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Krischik

            Martin
            --
            Martin Krischik
            mailto://krischik@...
          • Sebastian Menge
            Since John asked for wikibooks again, I ve setup a poll to bring this ... But I don t see any structure in the 1500 tips. Neither now nor later. That s the
            Message 5 of 9 , May 23, 2007
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              Since John asked for wikibooks again, I've setup a poll to bring this
              discussion to an end. But before some last words:

              > > Wikibooks does not ask you to create "structure in chapters,sections" up
              > > front. It is not even suggested! Suggested is "Content first" and "structure
              > > in chapters,sections" later.

              But I don't see any structure in the 1500 tips. Neither now nor later.
              That's the reason why tips are separated from the manual!

              Regarding the ads on wikia: The guys there told me that ads will be
              reduced much in space soon. And I even noticed ads on vim.org ... :-)

              Now for the vote:

              Please review the arguments before voting. I hope you can find all major
              arguments in the full quote at the bottom of this mail. Perhaps a word
              of Bram would be helpful !?

              Now here's the link to the poll:

              http://snappoll.com/poll/194388.php

              I propose to close the vote on

              Friday, May 25th, 12:00 +0200 (MEZ aka CET).

              (please ignore the funny graphic, it was the first result for "free
              poll" on google ...)

              Sebastian.


              Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 21:06 +0200 schrieb Martin Krischik:
              > Am Dienstag 15 Mai 2007 schrieb Sebastian Menge:
              > > Am Montag, den 14.05.2007, 21:49 +0200 schrieb Martin Krischik:
              > > > Now refresh my mind: Why did we choose advertising ridden wikea over
              > > > advertising free wikibooks?
              > >
              > > There was already a lot of discussion on this topic but no real
              > > decision. I think that mediawiki is accepted as the most stable,
              > > feature-rich and spam-resistant software around.
              > >
              > > Given that we dont want to host the wiki ourselves, we need a hosting
              > > service: Here's a list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_farms
              > > There are no mediawiki-based offers that are completely free.
              > >
              > > If someone has an idea where/howto host a mediawiki completey free, that
              > > would be best!
              > >
              > > Here my pros and cons for wikia vs wikibooks:
              > >
              > > 1 +wikia: no costs
              > > 2 +wikia: a complete wiki, not just a bunch of pages
              > > 3 -wikia: ads
              > >
              > > 4 +wikibooks: really free, open content
              > > 5 -wikibooks: is intended for books/lecture material. vim tips doesnt
              > > fit that. A real book would need a structure in chapters,sections etc.
              >
              > 6 +wikibooks: "personal" Administrator.
              >
              > > For me points 2 and 5 win. But anyway I would love to see a good VimBook
              > > on wikibooks.
              > >
              > > Other ideas/votes?
              >
              > Now on WikiBook there is allready a "real book" with structure in chapters,
              > sections ;-) - it's called "Learning the vi editor". Of the 16 chapters 7
              > are Vim chapters :-). And I belive Vim covers more the 50% of the content.
              >
              > Now the Wiki motto is "Content first" so here my advertising free suggestion:
              >
              > 1) We add the Vim tips to the "Tips and Tricks" Chapter
              > 2) Once we we have enough tips (content) we split the book.
              >
              > Wikibooks does not ask you to create "structure in chapters,sections" up
              > front. It is not even suggested! Suggested is "Content first" and "structure
              > in chapters,sections" later.
              >
              > BTW: With a tabbed browser and a fast internet connection you can rename 10
              > pages per minute - I once rename a 200 page book from "Programming:Ada"
              > to "Ada Programming".
              >
              > Martin
              >
              > [1] http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor
              > [2] http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/Tips_and_Tricks
            • Zdenek Sekera
              ... [...] ... Well, say they could be thought of belonging loosely to different categories (folding, highlighting, mapping, ...). I don t know if it can be
              Message 6 of 9 , May 23, 2007
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Sebastian Menge [mailto:sebastian.menge@...]
                > Sent: 23 May 2007 10:03
                > To: vim@...
                > Subject: VimWiki - Poll on wiki hosting
                [...]
                >
                > But I don't see any structure in the 1500 tips. Neither now nor later.

                Well, say they could be thought of belonging loosely to different
                'categories' (folding, highlighting, mapping, ...). I don't
                know if it can be equaled to chapters, sections, paragraphs,
                probably not, but some structure would surely eventually help
                in browsing, searching, etc. Hopefully that can be changed
                later if people think with me it would be useful.

                > That's the reason why tips are separated from the manual!
                >

                Correct, tips should be separated from the manual IMHO.

                > Regarding the ads on wikia: The guys there told me that ads will be
                > reduced much in space soon. And I even noticed ads on vim.org ... :-)
                >

                I like that smiley!

                > Now for the vote:
                >
                > Please review the arguments before voting. I hope you can find all
                > major
                > arguments in the full quote at the bottom of this mail. Perhaps a word
                > of Bram would be helpful !?
                >
                > Now here's the link to the poll:
                >
                > http://snappoll.com/poll/194388.php
                >

                I would have rephrased the 'I don't care' option to something like
                "you guys, who know what you are talking about, choose the solution
                you believe fits the bill well, can be maintained if needed and
                is reasonably easy to implement". With this in mind I will vote
                'I don't care', which doesn't mean I don't care :-)!

                > I propose to close the vote on
                >
                > Friday, May 25th, 12:00 +0200 (MEZ aka CET).
                >

                Good suggestion.

                Cheers and thanks for your involvement in this!

                ---Zdenek

                >
                > Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 21:06 +0200 schrieb Martin Krischik:
                > > Am Dienstag 15 Mai 2007 schrieb Sebastian Menge:
                > > > Am Montag, den 14.05.2007, 21:49 +0200 schrieb Martin Krischik:
                > > > > Now refresh my mind: Why did we choose advertising ridden wikea
                > over
                > > > > advertising free wikibooks?
                > > >
                > > > There was already a lot of discussion on this topic but no real
                > > > decision. I think that mediawiki is accepted as the most stable,
                > > > feature-rich and spam-resistant software around.
                > > >
                > > > Given that we dont want to host the wiki ourselves, we need a
                > hosting
                > > > service: Here's a list
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_farms
                > > > There are no mediawiki-based offers that are completely free.
                > > >
                > > > If someone has an idea where/howto host a mediawiki completey free,
                > that
                > > > would be best!
                > > >
                > > > Here my pros and cons for wikia vs wikibooks:
                > > >
                > > > 1 +wikia: no costs
                > > > 2 +wikia: a complete wiki, not just a bunch of pages
                > > > 3 -wikia: ads
                > > >
                > > > 4 +wikibooks: really free, open content
                > > > 5 -wikibooks: is intended for books/lecture material. vim tips
                > doesnt
                > > > fit that. A real book would need a structure in chapters,sections
                > etc.
                > >
                > > 6 +wikibooks: "personal" Administrator.
                > >
                > > > For me points 2 and 5 win. But anyway I would love to see a good
                > VimBook
                > > > on wikibooks.
                > > >
                > > > Other ideas/votes?
                > >
                > > Now on WikiBook there is allready a "real book" with structure in
                > chapters,
                > > sections ;-) - it's called "Learning the vi editor". Of the 16
                > chapters 7
                > > are Vim chapters :-). And I belive Vim covers more the 50% of the
                > content.
                > >
                > > Now the Wiki motto is "Content first" so here my advertising free
                > suggestion:
                > >
                > > 1) We add the Vim tips to the "Tips and Tricks" Chapter
                > > 2) Once we we have enough tips (content) we split the book.
                > >
                > > Wikibooks does not ask you to create "structure in chapters,sections"
                > up
                > > front. It is not even suggested! Suggested is "Content first" and
                > "structure
                > > in chapters,sections" later.
                > >
                > > BTW: With a tabbed browser and a fast internet connection you can
                > rename 10
                > > pages per minute - I once rename a 200 page book from
                > "Programming:Ada"
                > > to "Ada Programming".
                > >
                > > Martin
                > >
                > > [1] http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor
                > > [2]
                > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/Tips_and_Tricks
              • Tom Purl
                ... I agree with this. The tips are basically just a bucket of information, with very little structure. Also, some day it might be nice to add other content
                Message 7 of 9 , May 23, 2007
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                  On Wed, May 23, 2007 3:03 am, Sebastian Menge wrote:
                  > Since John asked for wikibooks again, I've setup a poll to bring this
                  > discussion to an end. But before some last words:
                  >
                  >> Wikibooks does not ask you to create "structure in chapters,sections"
                  >> up front. It is not even suggested! Suggested is "Content first" and
                  >> "structure in chapters,sections" later.
                  >
                  > But I don't see any structure in the 1500 tips. Neither now nor later.
                  > That's the reason why tips are separated from the manual!

                  I agree with this. The tips are basically just a bucket of information,
                  with very little structure. Also, some day it might be nice to add
                  other content to the wiki that doesn't fit very well into a book format.

                  One of the things I really like about Wikia is that it's run by the
                  founds of the Mediawiki project. Here's some more information:

                  * http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Why_use_Wikia%3F

                  Of course, we could make it work on wikibooks, and it is a very nice
                  site.

                  Just my two cents,

                  Tom Purl
                • Tobia
                  ... I think the best way to host a bunch of random tips and make them actually useful would be a tag system with a so-called tag cloud , as seen on many
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 24, 2007
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                    Sebastian Menge wrote:
                    > But I don't see any structure in the 1500 tips. Neither now nor later.
                    > That's the reason why tips are separated from the manual!

                    I think the best way to host a bunch of random tips and make them
                    actually useful would be a tag system with a so-called "tag cloud", as
                    seen on many sites, so you could navigate from tip to tip following your
                    own train of thought.

                    I don't know if there is a free "tag cloud" implementation around
                    (sorry, I don't know the real name of that thing) but if there is not,
                    I guess we could write our own in a few lines of php...

                    Just my 2ยข


                    Tobia
                  • Sebastian Menge
                    ... The poll now says vim.wikia.com 48% 14 wikibooks.org 28% 8 I dont care. 24% 7 total votes: 29 Which is not a lot of votes, but there seems to be a
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 25, 2007
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                      > On Wed, May 23, 2007 3:03 am, Sebastian Menge wrote:
                      > > Since John asked for wikibooks again, I've setup a poll to bring this

                      The poll now says

                      vim.wikia.com 48% 14
                      wikibooks.org 28% 8
                      I dont care. 24% 7

                      total votes: 29

                      Which is not a lot of votes, but there seems to be a direction. (BTW
                      thanks to all voters). I hope that those who voted for wikibooks can get
                      along with that and will support "vim.wikia.com" too.

                      Well, then I will do the import to wikia in the coming days. Before
                      that, I will do further experiments on their scratchpad and report here
                      to get your comments.

                      Thanks for all the support,

                      Sebastian.
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