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Vim Wiki - Wiki Template Proposal

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  • Tom Purl
    Sebastian Menge has graciously created a Mediawiki template that could be used with the proposed Vim wiki. Here s a link to the template: *
    Message 1 of 23 , May 14, 2007
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      Sebastian Menge has graciously created a Mediawiki template that could
      be used with the proposed Vim wiki. Here's a link to the template:

      * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip

      This is the "wrapper" for the actual tip content. Here's an example of
      some plain-text content:

      {{Tip
      |id=1
      |title=Tip #1 - the super star
      |created=February 24, 2001 14:47
      |complexity=basic
      |author=scott at kintana.com
      |version=5.7
      |text=
      When a discussion started about learning vim on the vim list Juergen
      Salk mentioned the "*" key as something that he wished he had
      know earlier. When I read the mail I had to go help on what the heck the
      "*" did. I also wish I had known earlier...<br><br>Using the
      "*" key while in normal mode searches for the word under the
      cursor.<br><br>If that doesn't save you a lot of typing, I don't know
      what will.
      }}

      When you combine this content with the template on the wiki, you get the
      following:

      * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1

      The big benefit of using a wiki template is that it separates the
      content from the presentation, which can be very nice from the
      perspective of a sysadmin or tip converter.

      The disadvantage, in my eyes, of using wiki templates is that it adds
      another barrier to entry for potential tip authors/editors. Not only
      would they have to know how to do basic Mediawiki editing, but they
      would also have to know how to use templates. Also, in my opinion, it
      is more difficult to edit the content when it's "squished" into a
      template.

      So far, we know about the opinions of me and Sebastian. What does
      everyone else think? Is the template thing a good idea for our wiki?

      Thanks again!

      Tom Purl
    • Martin Krischik
      ... Templates tend to be a good idea for small amount of text - and most tips don t have have that much text. Now refresh my mind: Why did we choose
      Message 2 of 23 , May 14, 2007
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        Am Montag 14 Mai 2007 schrieb Tom Purl:

        > So far, we know about the opinions of me and Sebastian.  What does
        > everyone else think?  Is the template thing a good idea for our wiki?

        Templates tend to be a good idea for small amount of text - and most tips
        don't have have that much text.

        Now refresh my mind: Why did we choose advertising ridden wikea over
        advertising free wikibooks?

        Martin

        --
        Martin Krischik
        mailto://krischik@...
      • fREW
        ... I think that a template is a good idea, but like someone else (was it you Tom) said in another thread, let s make the metadata more subtle. It really
        Message 3 of 23 , May 14, 2007
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          On 5/14/07, Tom Purl <tom@...> wrote:
          > Sebastian Menge has graciously created a Mediawiki template that could
          > be used with the proposed Vim wiki. Here's a link to the template:
          >
          > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip
          >
          > This is the "wrapper" for the actual tip content. Here's an example of
          > some plain-text content:
          >
          > {{Tip
          > |id=1
          > |title=Tip #1 - the super star
          > |created=February 24, 2001 14:47
          > |complexity=basic
          > |author=scott at kintana.com
          > |version=5.7
          > |text=
          > When a discussion started about learning vim on the vim list Juergen
          > Salk mentioned the "*" key as something that he wished he had
          > know earlier. When I read the mail I had to go help on what the heck the
          > "*" did. I also wish I had known earlier...<br><br>Using the
          > "*" key while in normal mode searches for the word under the
          > cursor.<br><br>If that doesn't save you a lot of typing, I don't know
          > what will.
          > }}
          >
          > When you combine this content with the template on the wiki, you get the
          > following:
          >
          > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
          >
          > The big benefit of using a wiki template is that it separates the
          > content from the presentation, which can be very nice from the
          > perspective of a sysadmin or tip converter.
          >
          > The disadvantage, in my eyes, of using wiki templates is that it adds
          > another barrier to entry for potential tip authors/editors. Not only
          > would they have to know how to do basic Mediawiki editing, but they
          > would also have to know how to use templates. Also, in my opinion, it
          > is more difficult to edit the content when it's "squished" into a
          > template.
          >
          > So far, we know about the opinions of me and Sebastian. What does
          > everyone else think? Is the template thing a good idea for our wiki?
          >
          > Thanks again!
          >
          > Tom Purl

          I think that a template is a good idea, but like someone else (was it
          you Tom) said in another thread, let's make the metadata more subtle.
          It really dominates the page and it's kindav an eyesore. I put up
          another template and it is at
          http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2 with a demo at
          http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2 . The only difference
          being that I manually took the #1 off of the tip title from VimTip1
          and I made the "Your signed comments here." not part of the template,
          which was probably not really intended in the original anyway. What
          do you guys think? The other idea that I had was to completely remove
          the first header (==Tip: #{{{id}}} - {{{title}}}==) and have the tips
          actually indexed something like that, so you would have that header by
          default, and then a comments thing at the bottom.

          -fREW
        • Zdenek Sekera
          ... Problem with asking for more opinions is that you may end up with too many. Here is mine :-): I like the idea of a template, naively I think this should
          Message 4 of 23 , May 14, 2007
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: fREW [mailto:frioux@...]
            > Sent: 15 May 2007 04:24
            > To: Tom Purl
            > Cc: vim@...
            > Subject: Re: Vim Wiki - Wiki Template Proposal
            >
            > On 5/14/07, Tom Purl <tom@...> wrote:
            > > Sebastian Menge has graciously created a Mediawiki template that
            > could
            > > be used with the proposed Vim wiki. Here's a link to the template:
            > >
            > > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip
            > >
            > > This is the "wrapper" for the actual tip content. Here's an example
            > of
            > > some plain-text content:
            > >
            > > {{Tip
            > > |id=1
            > > |title=Tip #1 - the super star
            > > |created=February 24, 2001 14:47
            > > |complexity=basic
            > > |author=scott at kintana.com
            > > |version=5.7
            > > |text=
            > > When a discussion started about learning vim on the vim list
            > Juergen
            > > Salk mentioned the "*" key as something that he wished
            > he had
            > > know earlier. When I read the mail I had to go help on what the
            > heck the
            > > "*" did. I also wish I had known
            > earlier...<br><br>Using the
            > > "*" key while in normal mode searches for the word
            > under the
            > > cursor.<br><br>If that doesn't save you a lot of typing, I don't
            > know
            > > what will.
            > > }}
            > >
            > > When you combine this content with the template on the wiki, you get
            > the
            > > following:
            > >
            > > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
            > >
            > > The big benefit of using a wiki template is that it separates the
            > > content from the presentation, which can be very nice from the
            > > perspective of a sysadmin or tip converter.
            > >
            > > The disadvantage, in my eyes, of using wiki templates is that it adds
            > > another barrier to entry for potential tip authors/editors. Not only
            > > would they have to know how to do basic Mediawiki editing, but they
            > > would also have to know how to use templates. Also, in my opinion,
            > it
            > > is more difficult to edit the content when it's "squished" into a
            > > template.
            > >
            > > So far, we know about the opinions of me and Sebastian. What does
            > > everyone else think? Is the template thing a good idea for our wiki?
            > >
            > > Thanks again!
            > >
            > > Tom Purl
            >
            > I think that a template is a good idea, but like someone else (was it
            > you Tom) said in another thread, let's make the metadata more subtle.
            > It really dominates the page and it's kindav an eyesore. I put up
            > another template and it is at
            > http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2 with a demo at
            > http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2 . The only difference
            > being that I manually took the #1 off of the tip title from VimTip1
            > and I made the "Your signed comments here." not part of the template,
            > which was probably not really intended in the original anyway. What
            > do you guys think? The other idea that I had was to completely remove
            > the first header (==Tip: #{{{id}}} - {{{title}}}==) and have the tips
            > actually indexed something like that, so you would have that header by
            > default, and then a comments thing at the bottom.

            Problem with asking for more opinions is that you may end up with
            too many. Here is mine :-): I like the idea of a template, naively
            I think this should simplify searches etc, I *much* prefer the
            second template because it is not taking so much screen real estate,
            and yet it contains all the info as the previous one. I'd like
            entering a new tip or adding comments to existing one to be as simple as
            possible, I'd prefer not to be forced to learn anything
            to be able to post or update (in other words it should be obvious)
            and ideally, a *normal* tip should fit on a screen, exceptions
            accepted, comments can extend the whole tip over a screen.

            In yet another words, I'd like to look at the screen and have
            (almost) all info right there without scrolling etc (read: as much
            as possible), so some big header doesn't fit my bill.

            Thank you guys for doing this work!

            Cheers,

            ---Zdenek

            -----------------------------------------------------
            Zdenek Sekera | zdenek.sekera@...
            LHC Computing Grid Project | +41 76 487 4971 (mobile)
            CERN, IT Department | +41 22 767 1068 (office)
            CH-1211, Geneva 23, Switzerland
          • Sebastian Menge
            Thanks for the feedback! 1) I think learning to fillout the template is easier than learning wiki markup. 2) Im pretty sure there is a way to post a new tip by
            Message 5 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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              Thanks for the feedback!

              1) I think learning to fillout the template is easier than learning wiki
              markup.

              2) Im pretty sure there is a way to post a new tip by means of an HTML
              Form. Perhaps Martin knows more about the abilities of mediawiki in this
              respect. There is an extension called "InbutBox" but I have not
              understood yet howto use it.

              3) The template I posted was just a very first (and ugly) prototype
              intended to keep the whole layout question off this list! If you don't
              like it, feel free to change it: It's a wiki!

              Sebastian.
            • Sebastian Menge
              ... Now I have. There is a sample on http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest But it leads to another problem: In a wiki we have no means to autoincrement the
              Message 6 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 10:03 +0200 schrieb Sebastian Menge:
                > There is an extension called "InbutBox" but I have not
                > understood yet howto use it.

                Now I have. There is a sample on
                http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest

                But it leads to another problem: In a wiki we have no means to
                autoincrement the id.

                Thus the convention VimTip<ID> for page names is not feasible. A good
                prefix is a must in my opinion, but what suffix? Howto assure that it is
                unique, not cryptic etc? Or what about complete freedom, and revising it
                afterwards? Perhaps we can even drop the prefix and use simply a
                "category".

                Seb.
              • Zdenek Sekera
                ... This page gives error on page message during loading plus some other message, but all flashes so quickly at the bottom of the page that I couldn t get
                Message 7 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Sebastian Menge [mailto:sebastian.menge@...]
                  > Sent: 15 May 2007 13:49
                  > To: Zdenek Sekera
                  > Cc: fREW; Tom Purl; vim@...
                  > Subject: RE: Vim Wiki - Wiki Template Proposal
                  >
                  > Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 10:03 +0200 schrieb Sebastian Menge:
                  > > There is an extension called "InbutBox" but I have not
                  > > understood yet howto use it.
                  >
                  > Now I have. There is a sample on
                  > http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
                  >

                  This page gives "error on page" message during loading plus some
                  other message, but all flashes so quickly at the bottom of the
                  page that I couldn't get more than this. Then it looks like it
                  loaded the whole page anyway but it's hard to say what's missing
                  if anything.

                  ---Zdenek
                • Zdenek Sekera
                  ... Well, I tried again, several times, always the same error, flashes real fast...
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Sebastian Menge [mailto:sebastian.menge@...]
                    > Sent: 15 May 2007 14:47
                    > To: Zdenek Sekera
                    > Cc: fREW; Tom Purl; vim@...
                    > Subject: RE: Vim Wiki - Wiki Template Proposal
                    >
                    > Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 13:51 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Sekera:
                    > > > http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > This page gives "error on page" message during loading plus some
                    > > other message, but all flashes so quickly at the bottom of the
                    >
                    > Works for me...

                    Well, I tried again, several times, always the same error,
                    flashes real fast...

                    ---Zdenek
                  • Tom Purl
                    ... Some tips are pretty long, especially if you include the comments. ... Nothing s been decided yet, we re just exploring all of our options. Thanks! Tom
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                      On Mon, May 14, 2007 2:49 pm, Martin Krischik wrote:
                      > Am Montag 14 Mai 2007 schrieb Tom Purl:
                      >
                      >> So far, we know about the opinions of me and Sebastian. What does
                      >> everyone else think? Is the template thing a good idea for our wiki?
                      >
                      > Templates tend to be a good idea for small amount of text - and most
                      > tips don't have have that much text.

                      Some tips are pretty long, especially if you include the comments.

                      > Now refresh my mind: Why did we choose advertising ridden wikea over
                      > advertising free wikibooks?

                      Nothing's been decided yet, we're just exploring all of our options.

                      Thanks!

                      Tom Purl
                    • fREW
                      ... That s a hard question. Would it be worth it to have a cron job or something that ran every night and moved/linked the newest tips to chronologically
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                        On 5/15/07, Sebastian Menge <sebastian.menge@...> wrote:
                        > Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 10:03 +0200 schrieb Sebastian Menge:
                        > > There is an extension called "InbutBox" but I have not
                        > > understood yet howto use it.
                        >
                        > Now I have. There is a sample on
                        > http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
                        >
                        > But it leads to another problem: In a wiki we have no means to
                        > autoincrement the id.
                        >
                        > Thus the convention VimTip<ID> for page names is not feasible. A good
                        > prefix is a must in my opinion, but what suffix? Howto assure that it is
                        > unique, not cryptic etc? Or what about complete freedom, and revising it
                        > afterwards? Perhaps we can even drop the prefix and use simply a
                        > "category".
                        >
                        > Seb.

                        That's a hard question. Would it be worth it to have a cron job or
                        something that ran every night and moved/linked the newest tips to
                        chronologically ordered tip numbers? I don't think doing that would
                        be a problem, I just think it might be surprising when you make a tip,
                        and it's gone the next day. But a redirect like wikipedia has might
                        make that more reasonable.

                        Sound good?

                        -fREW
                      • Tom Purl
                        ... Since I m the *only* person who has so far voted against using wiki templates, I will accept the fact that I m in the minority and get out of the way :)
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                          On Tue, May 15, 2007 7:46 am, Sebastian Menge wrote:
                          > Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 13:51 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Sekera:
                          >> > http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
                          >> >

                          Since I'm the *only* person who has so far voted against using wiki
                          templates, I will accept the fact that I'm in the minority and get out
                          of the way :)

                          Having said that, I really like the idea of using templates in this way
                          if we're going to use macros.

                          Also, check out the wikia site (vim.wiki.com). I uploaded Sebastian's
                          logo.

                          Thanks,

                          Tom Purl
                        • Tom Purl
                          ... This sounds like an excellent idea to me, and not too terribly difficult to implement. Thanks, Tom Purl
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                            On Tue, May 15, 2007 9:51 am, fREW wrote:
                            > On 5/15/07, Sebastian Menge <sebastian.menge@...> wrote:
                            >> Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 10:03 +0200 schrieb Sebastian Menge:
                            >>
                            >> Now I have. There is a sample on
                            >> http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
                            >>
                            >> But it leads to another problem: In a wiki we have no means to
                            >> autoincrement the id.
                            >>
                            >> Thus the convention VimTip<ID> for page names is not feasible. A good
                            >> prefix is a must in my opinion, but what suffix? Howto assure that it
                            >> is unique, not cryptic etc? Or what about complete freedom, and
                            >> revising it afterwards? Perhaps we can even drop the prefix and use
                            >> simply a "category".
                            >>
                            >> Seb.
                            >
                            > That's a hard question. Would it be worth it to have a cron job or
                            > something that ran every night and moved/linked the newest tips to
                            > chronologically ordered tip numbers? I don't think doing that would
                            > be a problem, I just think it might be surprising when you make a tip,
                            > and it's gone the next day. But a redirect like wikipedia has might
                            > make that more reasonable.

                            This sounds like an excellent idea to me, and not too terribly difficult
                            to implement.

                            Thanks,

                            Tom Purl
                          • fREW
                            ... Also, we need to make sure that the script correctly escapes any wiki formatting. For example, http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip7. As you can see
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                              On 5/15/07, fREW <frioux@...> wrote:
                              > On 5/15/07, Sebastian Menge <sebastian.menge@...> wrote:
                              > > Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 10:03 +0200 schrieb Sebastian Menge:
                              > > > There is an extension called "InbutBox" but I have not
                              > > > understood yet howto use it.
                              > >
                              > > Now I have. There is a sample on
                              > > http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
                              > >
                              > > But it leads to another problem: In a wiki we have no means to
                              > > autoincrement the id.
                              > >
                              > > Thus the convention VimTip<ID> for page names is not feasible. A good
                              > > prefix is a must in my opinion, but what suffix? Howto assure that it is
                              > > unique, not cryptic etc? Or what about complete freedom, and revising it
                              > > afterwards? Perhaps we can even drop the prefix and use simply a
                              > > "category".
                              > >
                              > > Seb.
                              >
                              > That's a hard question. Would it be worth it to have a cron job or
                              > something that ran every night and moved/linked the newest tips to
                              > chronologically ordered tip numbers? I don't think doing that would
                              > be a problem, I just think it might be surprising when you make a tip,
                              > and it's gone the next day. But a redirect like wikipedia has might
                              > make that more reasonable.
                              >
                              > Sound good?
                              >
                              > -fREW
                              >

                              Also, we need to make sure that the script correctly escapes any wiki
                              formatting. For example, http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip7.
                              As you can see the and is set to be a page in the first comment. To
                              fix that you just put <nowiki></nowiki> around the brackets. Also, I
                              think that for the most part <br>'s can be replaced with newlines.
                              Any html at all should have a wiki version. See below for help on
                              that. For the most part I don't think the markup is a huge deal, but
                              think that we should try to get the script to output the closest thing
                              possible to wiki syntax. Could someone send out the script that was
                              used to upload pages initially? It would be helpful to see it so that
                              we could set up some translation code in the script.

                              [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cheatsheet
                              [2] http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Tutorial_3
                              [3] http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Tutorial_4
                              [4] http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Tutorial_5

                              -fREW
                            • fREW
                              ... I dig the page! That logo is great :-) I think you dropped off an a when you sent out the link though. http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page -fREW
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                                On 5/15/07, Tom Purl <tom@...> wrote:
                                > On Tue, May 15, 2007 7:46 am, Sebastian Menge wrote:
                                > > Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 13:51 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Sekera:
                                > >> > http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
                                > >> >
                                >
                                > Since I'm the *only* person who has so far voted against using wiki
                                > templates, I will accept the fact that I'm in the minority and get out
                                > of the way :)
                                >
                                > Having said that, I really like the idea of using templates in this way
                                > if we're going to use macros.
                                >
                                > Also, check out the wikia site (vim.wiki.com). I uploaded Sebastian's
                                > logo.
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                >
                                > Tom Purl
                                >

                                I dig the page! That logo is great :-) I think you dropped off an a
                                when you sent out the link though.

                                http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

                                -fREW
                              • Tom Purl
                                ... Yikes! Thanks for fixing that typo. Tom Purl
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                                  On Tue, May 15, 2007 10:13 am, fREW wrote:
                                  >> Also, check out the wikia site (vim.wiki.com). I uploaded Sebastian's
                                  >> logo.
                                  >>
                                  >> Thanks,
                                  >>
                                  >> Tom Purl
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > I dig the page! That logo is great :-) I think you dropped off an a
                                  > when you sent out the link though.
                                  >
                                  > http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

                                  Yikes! Thanks for fixing that typo.

                                  Tom Purl
                                • Tom Purl
                                  ... Sure, I can handle that. First, you need a gmail/google account, however. Then I can add you as an SVN committer for the scripts repository. Thanks, Tom
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                                    On Tue, May 15, 2007 10:39 am, Sebastian Menge wrote:
                                    > I attach the three scripts (without any warranty ;-) ). But it would be
                                    > better to use a svn repository when we work on it together...
                                    >
                                    > Can we get commit access to
                                    > http://vimtips.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/scripts/ ?

                                    Sure, I can handle that. First, you need a gmail/google account,
                                    however. Then I can add you as an SVN committer for the scripts
                                    repository.

                                    Thanks,

                                    Tom Purl
                                  • Martin Krischik
                                    ... We should not include comments on the content page! That s what the discussion page if for. Martin -- Martin Krischik
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                                      Am Dienstag 15 Mai 2007 schrieb Tom Purl:
                                      > On Mon, May 14, 2007 2:49 pm, Martin Krischik wrote:
                                      > > Am Montag 14 Mai 2007 schrieb Tom Purl:
                                      > >> So far, we know about the opinions of me and Sebastian. What does
                                      > >> everyone else think? Is the template thing a good idea for our wiki?
                                      > >
                                      > > Templates tend to be a good idea for small amount of text - and most
                                      > > tips don't have have that much text.
                                      >
                                      > Some tips are pretty long, especially if you include the comments.

                                      We should not include comments on the content page! That's what the discussion
                                      page if for.

                                      Martin
                                      --
                                      Martin Krischik
                                      mailto://krischik@...
                                    • Martin Krischik
                                      ... Current WikiMedia allows for default values and if|then|else structures. So Templates can have beginner and expert options. Martin -- Martin Krischik
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 15, 2007
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                                        Am Dienstag 15 Mai 2007 schrieb Zdenek Sekera:

                                        > Problem with asking for more opinions is that you may end up with
                                        > too many.

                                        Current WikiMedia allows for default values and if|then|else structures. So
                                        Templates can have beginner and expert options.

                                        Martin

                                        --
                                        Martin Krischik
                                        mailto://krischik@...
                                      • John Beckett
                                        ... You are very keen on that point, so I m going into a bit of detail about why I don t agree. A wiki discussion page (as you know!) is intended for people to
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 16, 2007
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                                          Martin Krischik wrote:
                                          > We should not include comments on the content page!
                                          > That's what the discussion page is for.

                                          You are very keen on that point, so I'm going into a bit of
                                          detail about why I don't agree.

                                          A wiki discussion page (as you know!) is intended for people to
                                          discuss the future of the page. Does an error need fixing? Are
                                          there points which need to be expanded? Is the content or style
                                          inconsistent with overall guidelines?

                                          Or, on the discussion page, I might ask why you reverted my
                                          edits, and we could debate whether my wording was better than
                                          yours.

                                          We'll still need the above in a Vim wiki.

                                          However, the Comments in Vim Tips are a different animal. Most
                                          comments are fluff, and need to be deleted ASAP.

                                          Many comments are very helpful, and their content needs to be
                                          merged into the body of the tip. On some tips, a reader would
                                          need a lot of persistence to work out what to do, because the
                                          tip says X, some comment says Y, and another comment says Z.

                                          I think I recall seeing cases where a comment points out that
                                          the tip is hopeless because there's a better way of handling the
                                          situation. We wouldn't want that comment hidden on the
                                          discussion page (where a casual reader won't see it).

                                          As I understand it, the whole point of moving Vim Tips to a wiki
                                          is so that we can fix each tip so that there is one consistent
                                          story on each page.

                                          You are correct that having the comments on the main page will
                                          be ugly. However, we hope that will be temporary. Perhaps I
                                          should say that *I* hope it will be temporary because I see that
                                          the proposed sample has a section for Comments.

                                          I imagine editing the wiki will go like this:
                                          - Import all tips with comments on main page.
                                          - Edit important tips and clean them up completely.
                                          - Edit nearly all tips to remove junk comments.
                                          - Leave difficult cases for later.

                                          I imagine there will be lots of difficult cases where
                                          considerable effort would be needed to merge the comments.
                                          In those cases, we would just leave the useful comments, perhaps
                                          editing them where helpful.

                                          Later (say in six months) we would discuss what to do with those
                                          tips that still have unmerged comments. In some cases, it might
                                          be very reasonable to leave comments on the main page. For
                                          example, a tip might describe a scenario and its solution.
                                          Then a comment might say that if you are running on a certain
                                          platform, then a better approach would be something else.
                                          It may never be worth fixing all tips to eliminate such
                                          comments, yet you wouldn't want to hide that useful info on
                                          the discussion page.

                                          I think that following the above strategy would be much easier
                                          for people editing a tip (easier than editing the main page and
                                          the discussion page, because once a comment is dealt with, it
                                          would have to be removed from the discussion page).

                                          Also, seeing the old comments on the main page would be an
                                          immediate reminder that the tip needs cleaning up.

                                          Imagine the mess if comments were on the discussion page, then
                                          someone edited the main page to include a few useful comments
                                          from the discussion page, but failed to remove those comments.
                                          It would then take herculean efforts to properly fix the tip,
                                          and the discussion pages would have so much junk in them that
                                          their function as a tip discussion would fail.

                                          John
                                        • fREW
                                          ... Also, just to follow up with what John said, Wikipedia is /not/ like most wiki s in this respect. I read a certain wiki off and on and I have stumbled
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 16, 2007
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                                            On 5/16/07, John Beckett <winterwaffle@...> wrote:
                                            > Martin Krischik wrote:
                                            > > We should not include comments on the content page!
                                            > > That's what the discussion page is for.
                                            >
                                            > You are very keen on that point, so I'm going into a bit of
                                            > detail about why I don't agree.
                                            >
                                            > A wiki discussion page (as you know!) is intended for people to
                                            > discuss the future of the page. Does an error need fixing? Are
                                            > there points which need to be expanded? Is the content or style
                                            > inconsistent with overall guidelines?
                                            >
                                            > Or, on the discussion page, I might ask why you reverted my
                                            > edits, and we could debate whether my wording was better than
                                            > yours.
                                            >
                                            > We'll still need the above in a Vim wiki.
                                            >
                                            > However, the Comments in Vim Tips are a different animal. Most
                                            > comments are fluff, and need to be deleted ASAP.
                                            >
                                            > Many comments are very helpful, and their content needs to be
                                            > merged into the body of the tip. On some tips, a reader would
                                            > need a lot of persistence to work out what to do, because the
                                            > tip says X, some comment says Y, and another comment says Z.
                                            >
                                            > I think I recall seeing cases where a comment points out that
                                            > the tip is hopeless because there's a better way of handling the
                                            > situation. We wouldn't want that comment hidden on the
                                            > discussion page (where a casual reader won't see it).
                                            >
                                            > As I understand it, the whole point of moving Vim Tips to a wiki
                                            > is so that we can fix each tip so that there is one consistent
                                            > story on each page.
                                            >
                                            > You are correct that having the comments on the main page will
                                            > be ugly. However, we hope that will be temporary. Perhaps I
                                            > should say that *I* hope it will be temporary because I see that
                                            > the proposed sample has a section for Comments.
                                            >
                                            > I imagine editing the wiki will go like this:
                                            > - Import all tips with comments on main page.
                                            > - Edit important tips and clean them up completely.
                                            > - Edit nearly all tips to remove junk comments.
                                            > - Leave difficult cases for later.
                                            >
                                            > I imagine there will be lots of difficult cases where
                                            > considerable effort would be needed to merge the comments.
                                            > In those cases, we would just leave the useful comments, perhaps
                                            > editing them where helpful.
                                            >
                                            > Later (say in six months) we would discuss what to do with those
                                            > tips that still have unmerged comments. In some cases, it might
                                            > be very reasonable to leave comments on the main page. For
                                            > example, a tip might describe a scenario and its solution.
                                            > Then a comment might say that if you are running on a certain
                                            > platform, then a better approach would be something else.
                                            > It may never be worth fixing all tips to eliminate such
                                            > comments, yet you wouldn't want to hide that useful info on
                                            > the discussion page.
                                            >
                                            > I think that following the above strategy would be much easier
                                            > for people editing a tip (easier than editing the main page and
                                            > the discussion page, because once a comment is dealt with, it
                                            > would have to be removed from the discussion page).
                                            >
                                            > Also, seeing the old comments on the main page would be an
                                            > immediate reminder that the tip needs cleaning up.
                                            >
                                            > Imagine the mess if comments were on the discussion page, then
                                            > someone edited the main page to include a few useful comments
                                            > from the discussion page, but failed to remove those comments.
                                            > It would then take herculean efforts to properly fix the tip,
                                            > and the discussion pages would have so much junk in them that
                                            > their function as a tip discussion would fail.
                                            >
                                            > John
                                            >
                                            >

                                            Also, just to follow up with what John said, Wikipedia is /not/ like
                                            most wiki's in this respect. I read a certain wiki off and on and I
                                            have stumbled upon a few that are similar where people just ask
                                            questions right on the page. It's pretty nice once you get used to
                                            it, so I'd say leave the discussion for meta-thought and not actual
                                            thoughts about content.

                                            -fREW
                                          • Martin Krischik
                                            ... And most valuable comments are about improving the tip. ... As long at the comments are not to archived for ever on the main page I guess it is Ok. ...
                                            Message 21 of 23 , May 16, 2007
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                                              Am Mittwoch 16 Mai 2007 schrieb John Beckett:

                                              > A wiki discussion page (as you know!) is intended for people to
                                              > discuss the future of the page.

                                              And most valuable comments are about improving the tip.

                                              > However, we hope that will be temporary. Perhaps I
                                              > should say that *I* hope it will be temporary because I see that
                                              > the proposed sample has a section for Comments.

                                              As long at the comments are not to archived for ever on the main page I guess
                                              it is Ok.

                                              > (easier than editing the main page and
                                              > the discussion page, because once a comment is dealt with, it
                                              > would have to be removed from the discussion page).

                                              Well, on most Wikibooks comments are seldom cleaned up. They are just left to
                                              rot. And since there are not on the main page it does not matter.

                                              Martin
                                              --
                                              Martin Krischik
                                              mailto://krischik@...
                                            • John Beckett
                                              ... I see what you mean. If that were to happen with the Vim wiki then it would be really ugly (i.e. if junk comments were left indefinitely on the main tip
                                              Message 22 of 23 , May 17, 2007
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                                                Martin Krischik wrote:
                                                > Well, on most Wikibooks comments are seldom cleaned up.
                                                > They are just left to rot. And since there are not on
                                                > the main page it does not matter.

                                                I see what you mean. If that were to happen with the Vim wiki
                                                then it would be really ugly (i.e. if junk comments were left
                                                indefinitely on the main tip page).

                                                Let's agree that in November (say), we could have a clean up.
                                                Someone could post a message to vim@... with a list of
                                                tips that contain extraneous comments. Give everyone 14 days
                                                notice that the listed tips will be deleted if no one cares
                                                enough about them to clean up the comments.

                                                This suggestion is not for difficult cases where the tip is
                                                worthwhile, but for various reasons it's hard to integrate
                                                the comments. However, even in those cases, if we care enough
                                                we should edit the comments for spelling and accuracy, and
                                                should delete unhelpful comments.

                                                John
                                              • fREW
                                                ... That sounds reasonable to me. -fREW
                                                Message 23 of 23 , May 17, 2007
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                                                  On 5/17/07, John Beckett <winterwaffle@...> wrote:
                                                  > Martin Krischik wrote:
                                                  > > Well, on most Wikibooks comments are seldom cleaned up.
                                                  > > They are just left to rot. And since there are not on
                                                  > > the main page it does not matter.
                                                  >
                                                  > I see what you mean. If that were to happen with the Vim wiki
                                                  > then it would be really ugly (i.e. if junk comments were left
                                                  > indefinitely on the main tip page).
                                                  >
                                                  > Let's agree that in November (say), we could have a clean up.
                                                  > Someone could post a message to vim@... with a list of
                                                  > tips that contain extraneous comments. Give everyone 14 days
                                                  > notice that the listed tips will be deleted if no one cares
                                                  > enough about them to clean up the comments.
                                                  >
                                                  > This suggestion is not for difficult cases where the tip is
                                                  > worthwhile, but for various reasons it's hard to integrate
                                                  > the comments. However, even in those cases, if we care enough
                                                  > we should edit the comments for spelling and accuracy, and
                                                  > should delete unhelpful comments.
                                                  >
                                                  > John
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  That sounds reasonable to me.

                                                  -fREW
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