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Re: Official petition for Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer

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  • Erik Falor
    ... +1 Thanks, Dr. Chip -- Erik Falor http://unnovative.net Registered Linux User #445632
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
      On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 11:20:15AM -0400, Charles Campbell wrote:
      > Yes, and there are many businesses which use little javascript. Ask
      > around -- any javascript users on supercomputers? A lot of those
      > folks still use Fortran. May I respectfully suggest that your
      > vision is strongly limited to your personal environment and that you
      > should broaden your perspective a bit.

      +1

      Thanks, Dr. Chip

      --
      Erik Falor http://unnovative.net
      Registered Linux User #445632 http://linuxcounter.net
    • Andy Wokula
      ... Same for the new script. ... With ... in your vimrc (span not actually needed in the example), this becomes some text goes here like
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
        Am 05.08.2013 23:58, schrieb Ben Fritz:
        > On Monday, August 5, 2013 3:03:57 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
        >>> Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
        >>>
        >>> The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.
        >>
        >> <div>
        >> <p>
        >> <span></span>
        >> </p>
        >> </div>
        >>
        >> does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69
        >
        > I'm still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me:
        >
        > <div>
        > <p>
        > <span></span>
        > </p>
        > </div>

        Same for the new script.

        > Unless you expect the <span> to be indented further? I don't really care because sometimes I do:
        >
        > <div>
        > <p>some text
        > goes <span>here</span>
        > like this</p>
        > </div>

        With
        :let html_indent_inctags = 'p,span'
        in your vimrc (span not actually needed in the example), this becomes

        <div>
        <p>some text
        goes <span>here</span>
        like this</p>
        </div>

        When used during session you also need to do
        :call HtmlIndent_CheckUserSettings()

        (as explained at :h ft-html-indent (available in newer Vims))

        > or even:
        >
        > <div>
        > <p>some text
        > goes <span>here</span>
        > like this
        > </div> <!--I don't actually omit the </p> anymore but I did long ago-->
        >
        > But I guess that's a valid complaint.

        Valid complaint. I'll try to add support for optional end tags.

        --
        Andy

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      • Andrew Ray
        ... Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment? At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don t know the
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
          > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
          >
          > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
          >
          > able to handle it.

          Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
          At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
          know the history though. *Is* it from vi?

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        • glts
          ... C gets special treatment. See cindent , cscope , etc. Lisp gets special treatment. See lispwords , etc. nroff gets special treatment. See sections ,
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
            On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
            > > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
            > > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
            > > able to handle it.
            >
            > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
            > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
            > know the history though. *Is* it from vi?

            C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
            Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
            nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
            And so on.

            Vim is all about its history. So what? :)

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          • Paul Stewart
            Hi folks, I m not sure what folks are getting upset about. Bram has built a fantastic product, and it s extensible, so if you want to make changes or plugins
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
              Hi folks,

              I'm not sure what folks are getting upset about. Bram has built a
              fantastic product, and it's extensible, so if you want to make changes
              or plugins please go ahead, it will help the entire community.

              Don't complain about it, change it.

              Thanks

              On 08/06/2013 11:45 AM, glts wrote:
              > On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
              >>> Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
              >>> that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
              >>> able to handle it.
              >> Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
              >> At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
              >> know the history though. *Is* it from vi?
              > C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
              > Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
              > nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
              > And so on.
              >
              > Vim is all about its history. So what? :)
              >

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            • Ben Fritz
              ... It looks like indentexpr was introduced back in version 6 sometime. cindent existed before that. My guess is that Bram and other Vim developers
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
                On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 1:45:28 PM UTC-5, glts wrote:
                > On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                > > > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                > > > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                > > > able to handle it.
                > >
                > > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                > > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                > > know the history though. *Is* it from vi?
                >
                > C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                > Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                > nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                > And so on.
                >

                It looks like 'indentexpr' was introduced back in version 6 sometime. 'cindent' existed before that.

                My guess is that Bram and other Vim developers realized it would be unmaintainable to require a C code patch to support indentation of every single filetype Vim would ever edit. So instead they allowed indenting ANY filetype in an extensible way, by introducing the 'indentexpr' and related options. See :help new-indent-flex. So this is the preferred method going forward.

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              • Erik Falor
                ... Because Eric Fischer wrote it that way. See then comment in feature.h near the definition of FEAT_CINDENT. ... Because Vim is itself written in C, it
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
                  On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 11:05:25AM -0700, Andrew Ray wrote:
                  > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?

                  Because Eric Fischer wrote it that way. See then comment in feature.h
                  near the definition of FEAT_CINDENT.

                  > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias.

                  Because Vim is itself written in C, it stands to reason that the
                  author(s) would make sure that Vim works very well on C code. It also
                  stands to reason that early on, C programmers would extend Vim in C.

                  PROTIP: You sound like a troll when you throw around loaded phrases
                  like "special treatment" and "bias". If you are genuinely curious
                  about the history of Vim, I suggest toning your rhetoric down. One
                  can't help but wonder if other "front-end" developers are as insecure
                  in their profession as you sound to be.

                  If your intent is to divide the Vim community into "traditional" and
                  "front-end" programming camps by playing their cultural differences
                  against each other, then well played, sir. Now please find a more
                  useful hobby. Maybe you can make the NSA implode.

                  --
                  Erik Falor http://unnovative.net
                  Registered Linux User #445632 http://linuxcounter.net
                • Andrew Ray
                  ... I used words like seems like and at first glance and I don t know because I was not trolling. Saying something like vim has a language bias would
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 7, 2013
                    > PROTIP: You sound like a troll when you throw around loaded phrases
                    > like "special treatment" and "bias".

                    I used words like "seems like" and "at first glance" and "I don't know" because I was not trolling. Saying something like "vim has a language bias" would be trolling. I'm just telling you my perception, with an admittance that it's probably wrong. Calling someone a troll might be trolling though ;) so we're both doomed

                    > If your intent is to divide the Vim community into "traditional" and
                    > "front-end" programming camps by playing their cultural differences

                    I have no intent to divide the vim community. My first post is a playful one; of course it's ridiculous to ask anyone to switch professions over indenting. The ridiculousness is intentional. I'm just jealous that I can open sublime text and it indents everything just how I want it (how most of the community has adopted it), vs in vim I have to go through 2 or 3 javascript indenting plugins that all have unique bugs. I could try to fix it (and I have tried to fix it), and then there would be 3 or 4 indenting plugins out there that have unique bugs :) I just haven't promoted my attempt yet, because it is not good.

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