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Re: Official petition for Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer

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  • Ben Fritz
    ... I m still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me: Unless you expect the to be indented
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 5, 2013
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      On Monday, August 5, 2013 3:03:57 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
      > > Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
      > >
      > > The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.
      >
      > <div>
      > <p>
      > <span></span>
      > </p>
      > </div>
      >
      > does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69

      I'm still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me:

      <div>
      <p>
      <span></span>
      </p>
      </div>

      Unless you expect the <span> to be indented further? I don't really care because sometimes I do:

      <div>
      <p>some text
      goes <span>here</span>
      like this</p>
      </div>

      or even:

      <div>
      <p>some text
      goes <span>here</span>
      like this
      </div> <!--I don't actually omit the </p> anymore but I did long ago-->

      But I guess that's a valid complaint.

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    • Sayth Renshaw
      Well I never knew http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php A few things missing in the list was any particular javascript HTML requests, more curious I d
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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        Well I never knew http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php

        A few things missing in the list was any particular javascript HTML requests, more curious I'd that there wasn't an item about plugins and plugin mgt since its been mentioned in nearly every reply.

        Vim has pathogen, vimball, vundle and vam. Would have been good for one method from above or combination chosen and given a tighter integration into the core.

        Sayth

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      • Charles Campbell
        ... You are hardly stuck with using cindent. Read :help 30.3 and write your own indenting plugins for whichever languages you want. Put your own versions in
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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          Andrew Ray wrote:
          > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax highlighting out of the box is undesirable.
          You are hardly stuck with using cindent. Read :help 30.3 and write
          your own indenting plugins for whichever languages you want. Put your
          own versions in $HOME/.vim/indent. Alternatively, send email to the
          indenting file maintainers and ask them to consider problems you may be
          having.

          Don't like the syntax highlighting? Again, there's nothing stopping you
          from writing your own syntax highlighting files. Read :help syntax .
          Put your own versions in $HOME/.vim/syntax. Doing so may help you
          appreciate the difficulties involved.
          >
          > It's time for a change. Many of us want to write javascript in Vim, and want good support for it. The way to get that is for Bram to take up front end development, and learn the pitfalls that we all face. The first time Bram tries to use % on a multi-line < div > tag to jump to its close, we will be one step closer to liberation. With every comma separated var list he tries to write, the drums of freedom beat louder.
          >
          > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner.
          Strongly disagree --- even vehemently! If you want to write your own
          plugins, go ahead and do so. Bram is a miracle worker on vim, and he's
          been squashing thousands of bugs and enhancing vim, which I, for one,
          greatly appreciate. I don't write java; there are tens of thousands of
          programmers who use other languages, including perl, python, matlab,
          simulink, etc, and have never written a line of java. Vim, of course,
          may be used with all of those.
          > Whether we like it or not, many, if not most software implementations and businesses require complex javascript and front end work to function.

          Yes, and there are many businesses which use little javascript. Ask
          around -- any javascript users on supercomputers? A lot of those folks
          still use Fortran. May I respectfully suggest that your vision is
          strongly limited to your personal environment and that you should
          broaden your perspective a bit.
          >
          > JOIN ME! If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer so that the ever growing world of front end development can be slingshotted into the future, just sign below. Together, with Bram's help, we can make Vim the editor of choice for knocking out front end tasks.
          >
          > I, Andrew Ray, petition Bram Moolenar to become a front end developer.
          >
          Regards,
          Chip Campbell

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        • Erik Falor
          ... +1 Thanks, Dr. Chip -- Erik Falor http://unnovative.net Registered Linux User #445632
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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            On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 11:20:15AM -0400, Charles Campbell wrote:
            > Yes, and there are many businesses which use little javascript. Ask
            > around -- any javascript users on supercomputers? A lot of those
            > folks still use Fortran. May I respectfully suggest that your
            > vision is strongly limited to your personal environment and that you
            > should broaden your perspective a bit.

            +1

            Thanks, Dr. Chip

            --
            Erik Falor http://unnovative.net
            Registered Linux User #445632 http://linuxcounter.net
          • Andy Wokula
            ... Same for the new script. ... With ... in your vimrc (span not actually needed in the example), this becomes some text goes here like
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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              Am 05.08.2013 23:58, schrieb Ben Fritz:
              > On Monday, August 5, 2013 3:03:57 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
              >>> Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
              >>>
              >>> The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.
              >>
              >> <div>
              >> <p>
              >> <span></span>
              >> </p>
              >> </div>
              >>
              >> does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69
              >
              > I'm still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me:
              >
              > <div>
              > <p>
              > <span></span>
              > </p>
              > </div>

              Same for the new script.

              > Unless you expect the <span> to be indented further? I don't really care because sometimes I do:
              >
              > <div>
              > <p>some text
              > goes <span>here</span>
              > like this</p>
              > </div>

              With
              :let html_indent_inctags = 'p,span'
              in your vimrc (span not actually needed in the example), this becomes

              <div>
              <p>some text
              goes <span>here</span>
              like this</p>
              </div>

              When used during session you also need to do
              :call HtmlIndent_CheckUserSettings()

              (as explained at :h ft-html-indent (available in newer Vims))

              > or even:
              >
              > <div>
              > <p>some text
              > goes <span>here</span>
              > like this
              > </div> <!--I don't actually omit the </p> anymore but I did long ago-->
              >
              > But I guess that's a valid complaint.

              Valid complaint. I'll try to add support for optional end tags.

              --
              Andy

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            • Andrew Ray
              ... Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment? At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don t know the
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                >
                > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                >
                > able to handle it.

                Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                know the history though. *Is* it from vi?

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              • glts
                ... C gets special treatment. See cindent , cscope , etc. Lisp gets special treatment. See lispwords , etc. nroff gets special treatment. See sections ,
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                  On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                  > > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                  > > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                  > > able to handle it.
                  >
                  > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                  > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                  > know the history though. *Is* it from vi?

                  C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                  Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                  nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                  And so on.

                  Vim is all about its history. So what? :)

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                • Paul Stewart
                  Hi folks, I m not sure what folks are getting upset about. Bram has built a fantastic product, and it s extensible, so if you want to make changes or plugins
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                    Hi folks,

                    I'm not sure what folks are getting upset about. Bram has built a
                    fantastic product, and it's extensible, so if you want to make changes
                    or plugins please go ahead, it will help the entire community.

                    Don't complain about it, change it.

                    Thanks

                    On 08/06/2013 11:45 AM, glts wrote:
                    > On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                    >>> Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                    >>> that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                    >>> able to handle it.
                    >> Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                    >> At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                    >> know the history though. *Is* it from vi?
                    > C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                    > Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                    > nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                    > And so on.
                    >
                    > Vim is all about its history. So what? :)
                    >

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                  • Ben Fritz
                    ... It looks like indentexpr was introduced back in version 6 sometime. cindent existed before that. My guess is that Bram and other Vim developers
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                      On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 1:45:28 PM UTC-5, glts wrote:
                      > On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                      > > > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                      > > > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                      > > > able to handle it.
                      > >
                      > > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                      > > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                      > > know the history though. *Is* it from vi?
                      >
                      > C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                      > Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                      > nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                      > And so on.
                      >

                      It looks like 'indentexpr' was introduced back in version 6 sometime. 'cindent' existed before that.

                      My guess is that Bram and other Vim developers realized it would be unmaintainable to require a C code patch to support indentation of every single filetype Vim would ever edit. So instead they allowed indenting ANY filetype in an extensible way, by introducing the 'indentexpr' and related options. See :help new-indent-flex. So this is the preferred method going forward.

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                    • Erik Falor
                      ... Because Eric Fischer wrote it that way. See then comment in feature.h near the definition of FEAT_CINDENT. ... Because Vim is itself written in C, it
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                        On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 11:05:25AM -0700, Andrew Ray wrote:
                        > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?

                        Because Eric Fischer wrote it that way. See then comment in feature.h
                        near the definition of FEAT_CINDENT.

                        > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias.

                        Because Vim is itself written in C, it stands to reason that the
                        author(s) would make sure that Vim works very well on C code. It also
                        stands to reason that early on, C programmers would extend Vim in C.

                        PROTIP: You sound like a troll when you throw around loaded phrases
                        like "special treatment" and "bias". If you are genuinely curious
                        about the history of Vim, I suggest toning your rhetoric down. One
                        can't help but wonder if other "front-end" developers are as insecure
                        in their profession as you sound to be.

                        If your intent is to divide the Vim community into "traditional" and
                        "front-end" programming camps by playing their cultural differences
                        against each other, then well played, sir. Now please find a more
                        useful hobby. Maybe you can make the NSA implode.

                        --
                        Erik Falor http://unnovative.net
                        Registered Linux User #445632 http://linuxcounter.net
                      • Andrew Ray
                        ... I used words like seems like and at first glance and I don t know because I was not trolling. Saying something like vim has a language bias would
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 7, 2013
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                          > PROTIP: You sound like a troll when you throw around loaded phrases
                          > like "special treatment" and "bias".

                          I used words like "seems like" and "at first glance" and "I don't know" because I was not trolling. Saying something like "vim has a language bias" would be trolling. I'm just telling you my perception, with an admittance that it's probably wrong. Calling someone a troll might be trolling though ;) so we're both doomed

                          > If your intent is to divide the Vim community into "traditional" and
                          > "front-end" programming camps by playing their cultural differences

                          I have no intent to divide the vim community. My first post is a playful one; of course it's ridiculous to ask anyone to switch professions over indenting. The ridiculousness is intentional. I'm just jealous that I can open sublime text and it indents everything just how I want it (how most of the community has adopted it), vs in vim I have to go through 2 or 3 javascript indenting plugins that all have unique bugs. I could try to fix it (and I have tried to fix it), and then there would be 3 or 4 indenting plugins out there that have unique bugs :) I just haven't promoted my attempt yet, because it is not good.

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