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Re: Official petition for Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer

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  • Adri Verhoef
    ... [..] ... [..] ... [..] ... [..] Did you ask or discuss this with Bram? What I miss in your piece is Bram s insight on the matter. Also missing is your
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 4, 2013
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      Andrew Ray schreef op 2013-08-03 23:59:
      > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code.
      [..]
      >
      > It's time for a change. Many of us want to write javascript in Vim, and
      > want good support for it. The way to get that is for Bram to take up
      > front end development, and learn the pitfalls that we all face.
      [..]
      >
      > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner.
      [..]
      >
      > JOIN ME!
      [..]

      Did you ask or discuss this with Bram? What I miss in your piece is
      Bram's insight on the matter. Also missing is your insight in what will
      happen to writing C code. Your piece comes out of the blue and
      therefore it doesn't sound like an 'official petition'.

      Adri

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    • Bram Moolenaar
      ... Frontends are written in Java, C++ or a similar language. And yes, I work on some of these (and you probably used it, if you use Gmail or Google search
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 4, 2013
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        Ben Fritz wrote:

        > On Saturday, August 3, 2013 4:59:49 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
        > > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages....
        > >
        > >
        > > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner....
        > >
        > > If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer
        >
        > I'm not sure what exactly Bram does at Google...but it's a safe bet
        > they keep him busy, and he's working with software in some way.

        Frontends are written in Java, C++ or a similar language. And yes, I
        work on some of these (and you probably used it, if you use Gmail or
        Google search :-).

        > I'd wager he uses Vim for it as well, and might even get inspiration
        > for new features and fixes while doing so.

        Sure. Editing JS with Vim works quite well, just a few corner cases
        that have a problem.

        Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
        that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
        able to handle it.

        --
        hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
        47. You are so familiar with the WWW that you find the search engines useless.

        /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
        /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
        \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
        \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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      • Paul Stewart
        I thought the idea of vim was that it is extensible?.....you can build the plugins...don t expect bram to do it. Sent from my iPad ... -- -- You received this
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 4, 2013
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          I thought the idea of vim was that it is extensible?.....you can build the plugins...don't expect bram to do it.

          Sent from my iPad

          On Aug 3, 2013, at 14:59, Andrew Ray <delvarworld@...> wrote:

          > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax highlighting out of the box is undesirable.
          >
          > It's time for a change. Many of us want to write javascript in Vim, and want good support for it. The way to get that is for Bram to take up front end development, and learn the pitfalls that we all face. The first time Bram tries to use % on a multi-line < div > tag to jump to its close, we will be one step closer to liberation. With every comma separated var list he tries to write, the drums of freedom beat louder.
          >
          > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner. Whether we like it or not, many, if not most software implementations and businesses require complex javascript and front end work to function.
          >
          > JOIN ME! If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer so that the ever growing world of front end development can be slingshotted into the future, just sign below. Together, with Bram's help, we can make Vim the editor of choice for knocking out front end tasks.
          >
          > I, Andrew Ray, petition Bram Moolenar to become a front end developer.
          >
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        • Andy Wokula
          ... Have you tried a recent version of Vim? The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced. You can send your complaints about unproper HTML indenting to me. And
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 5, 2013
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            Am 03.08.2013 23:59, schrieb Andrew Ray:
            > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built
            > in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But,
            > times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html.
            > Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is
            > very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it
            > won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax
            > highlighting out of the box is undesirable.

            Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
            The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.
            You can send your complaints about unproper HTML indenting to me.
            And please be specific, thanks.

            --
            Andy

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          • Andrew Ray
            ... does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69 -- -- You received this message from the vim_use maillist. Do not
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 5, 2013
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              > Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
              >
              > The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.

              <div>
              <p>
              <span></span>
              </p>
              </div>

              does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69

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            • Ben Fritz
              ... I m still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me: Unless you expect the to be indented
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 5, 2013
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                On Monday, August 5, 2013 3:03:57 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
                > > Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
                > >
                > > The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.
                >
                > <div>
                > <p>
                > <span></span>
                > </p>
                > </div>
                >
                > does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69

                I'm still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me:

                <div>
                <p>
                <span></span>
                </p>
                </div>

                Unless you expect the <span> to be indented further? I don't really care because sometimes I do:

                <div>
                <p>some text
                goes <span>here</span>
                like this</p>
                </div>

                or even:

                <div>
                <p>some text
                goes <span>here</span>
                like this
                </div> <!--I don't actually omit the </p> anymore but I did long ago-->

                But I guess that's a valid complaint.

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              • Sayth Renshaw
                Well I never knew http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php A few things missing in the list was any particular javascript HTML requests, more curious I d
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                  Well I never knew http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php

                  A few things missing in the list was any particular javascript HTML requests, more curious I'd that there wasn't an item about plugins and plugin mgt since its been mentioned in nearly every reply.

                  Vim has pathogen, vimball, vundle and vam. Would have been good for one method from above or combination chosen and given a tighter integration into the core.

                  Sayth

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                • Charles Campbell
                  ... You are hardly stuck with using cindent. Read :help 30.3 and write your own indenting plugins for whichever languages you want. Put your own versions in
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                    Andrew Ray wrote:
                    > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax highlighting out of the box is undesirable.
                    You are hardly stuck with using cindent. Read :help 30.3 and write
                    your own indenting plugins for whichever languages you want. Put your
                    own versions in $HOME/.vim/indent. Alternatively, send email to the
                    indenting file maintainers and ask them to consider problems you may be
                    having.

                    Don't like the syntax highlighting? Again, there's nothing stopping you
                    from writing your own syntax highlighting files. Read :help syntax .
                    Put your own versions in $HOME/.vim/syntax. Doing so may help you
                    appreciate the difficulties involved.
                    >
                    > It's time for a change. Many of us want to write javascript in Vim, and want good support for it. The way to get that is for Bram to take up front end development, and learn the pitfalls that we all face. The first time Bram tries to use % on a multi-line < div > tag to jump to its close, we will be one step closer to liberation. With every comma separated var list he tries to write, the drums of freedom beat louder.
                    >
                    > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner.
                    Strongly disagree --- even vehemently! If you want to write your own
                    plugins, go ahead and do so. Bram is a miracle worker on vim, and he's
                    been squashing thousands of bugs and enhancing vim, which I, for one,
                    greatly appreciate. I don't write java; there are tens of thousands of
                    programmers who use other languages, including perl, python, matlab,
                    simulink, etc, and have never written a line of java. Vim, of course,
                    may be used with all of those.
                    > Whether we like it or not, many, if not most software implementations and businesses require complex javascript and front end work to function.

                    Yes, and there are many businesses which use little javascript. Ask
                    around -- any javascript users on supercomputers? A lot of those folks
                    still use Fortran. May I respectfully suggest that your vision is
                    strongly limited to your personal environment and that you should
                    broaden your perspective a bit.
                    >
                    > JOIN ME! If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer so that the ever growing world of front end development can be slingshotted into the future, just sign below. Together, with Bram's help, we can make Vim the editor of choice for knocking out front end tasks.
                    >
                    > I, Andrew Ray, petition Bram Moolenar to become a front end developer.
                    >
                    Regards,
                    Chip Campbell

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                  • Erik Falor
                    ... +1 Thanks, Dr. Chip -- Erik Falor http://unnovative.net Registered Linux User #445632
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                      On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 11:20:15AM -0400, Charles Campbell wrote:
                      > Yes, and there are many businesses which use little javascript. Ask
                      > around -- any javascript users on supercomputers? A lot of those
                      > folks still use Fortran. May I respectfully suggest that your
                      > vision is strongly limited to your personal environment and that you
                      > should broaden your perspective a bit.

                      +1

                      Thanks, Dr. Chip

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                    • Andy Wokula
                      ... Same for the new script. ... With ... in your vimrc (span not actually needed in the example), this becomes some text goes here like
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                        Am 05.08.2013 23:58, schrieb Ben Fritz:
                        > On Monday, August 5, 2013 3:03:57 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
                        >>> Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
                        >>>
                        >>> The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.
                        >>
                        >> <div>
                        >> <p>
                        >> <span></span>
                        >> </p>
                        >> </div>
                        >>
                        >> does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69
                        >
                        > I'm still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me:
                        >
                        > <div>
                        > <p>
                        > <span></span>
                        > </p>
                        > </div>

                        Same for the new script.

                        > Unless you expect the <span> to be indented further? I don't really care because sometimes I do:
                        >
                        > <div>
                        > <p>some text
                        > goes <span>here</span>
                        > like this</p>
                        > </div>

                        With
                        :let html_indent_inctags = 'p,span'
                        in your vimrc (span not actually needed in the example), this becomes

                        <div>
                        <p>some text
                        goes <span>here</span>
                        like this</p>
                        </div>

                        When used during session you also need to do
                        :call HtmlIndent_CheckUserSettings()

                        (as explained at :h ft-html-indent (available in newer Vims))

                        > or even:
                        >
                        > <div>
                        > <p>some text
                        > goes <span>here</span>
                        > like this
                        > </div> <!--I don't actually omit the </p> anymore but I did long ago-->
                        >
                        > But I guess that's a valid complaint.

                        Valid complaint. I'll try to add support for optional end tags.

                        --
                        Andy

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                      • Andrew Ray
                        ... Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment? At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don t know the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                          > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                          >
                          > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                          >
                          > able to handle it.

                          Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                          At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                          know the history though. *Is* it from vi?

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                        • glts
                          ... C gets special treatment. See cindent , cscope , etc. Lisp gets special treatment. See lispwords , etc. nroff gets special treatment. See sections ,
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                            On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                            > > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                            > > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                            > > able to handle it.
                            >
                            > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                            > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                            > know the history though. *Is* it from vi?

                            C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                            Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                            nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                            And so on.

                            Vim is all about its history. So what? :)

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                          • Paul Stewart
                            Hi folks, I m not sure what folks are getting upset about. Bram has built a fantastic product, and it s extensible, so if you want to make changes or plugins
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                              Hi folks,

                              I'm not sure what folks are getting upset about. Bram has built a
                              fantastic product, and it's extensible, so if you want to make changes
                              or plugins please go ahead, it will help the entire community.

                              Don't complain about it, change it.

                              Thanks

                              On 08/06/2013 11:45 AM, glts wrote:
                              > On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                              >>> Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                              >>> that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                              >>> able to handle it.
                              >> Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                              >> At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                              >> know the history though. *Is* it from vi?
                              > C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                              > Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                              > nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                              > And so on.
                              >
                              > Vim is all about its history. So what? :)
                              >

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                            • Ben Fritz
                              ... It looks like indentexpr was introduced back in version 6 sometime. cindent existed before that. My guess is that Bram and other Vim developers
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                                On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 1:45:28 PM UTC-5, glts wrote:
                                > On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                                > > > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                                > > > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                                > > > able to handle it.
                                > >
                                > > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                                > > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                                > > know the history though. *Is* it from vi?
                                >
                                > C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                                > Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                                > nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                                > And so on.
                                >

                                It looks like 'indentexpr' was introduced back in version 6 sometime. 'cindent' existed before that.

                                My guess is that Bram and other Vim developers realized it would be unmaintainable to require a C code patch to support indentation of every single filetype Vim would ever edit. So instead they allowed indenting ANY filetype in an extensible way, by introducing the 'indentexpr' and related options. See :help new-indent-flex. So this is the preferred method going forward.

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                              • Erik Falor
                                ... Because Eric Fischer wrote it that way. See then comment in feature.h near the definition of FEAT_CINDENT. ... Because Vim is itself written in C, it
                                Message 15 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                                  On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 11:05:25AM -0700, Andrew Ray wrote:
                                  > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?

                                  Because Eric Fischer wrote it that way. See then comment in feature.h
                                  near the definition of FEAT_CINDENT.

                                  > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias.

                                  Because Vim is itself written in C, it stands to reason that the
                                  author(s) would make sure that Vim works very well on C code. It also
                                  stands to reason that early on, C programmers would extend Vim in C.

                                  PROTIP: You sound like a troll when you throw around loaded phrases
                                  like "special treatment" and "bias". If you are genuinely curious
                                  about the history of Vim, I suggest toning your rhetoric down. One
                                  can't help but wonder if other "front-end" developers are as insecure
                                  in their profession as you sound to be.

                                  If your intent is to divide the Vim community into "traditional" and
                                  "front-end" programming camps by playing their cultural differences
                                  against each other, then well played, sir. Now please find a more
                                  useful hobby. Maybe you can make the NSA implode.

                                  --
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                                  Registered Linux User #445632 http://linuxcounter.net
                                • Andrew Ray
                                  ... I used words like seems like and at first glance and I don t know because I was not trolling. Saying something like vim has a language bias would
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Aug 7, 2013
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                                    > PROTIP: You sound like a troll when you throw around loaded phrases
                                    > like "special treatment" and "bias".

                                    I used words like "seems like" and "at first glance" and "I don't know" because I was not trolling. Saying something like "vim has a language bias" would be trolling. I'm just telling you my perception, with an admittance that it's probably wrong. Calling someone a troll might be trolling though ;) so we're both doomed

                                    > If your intent is to divide the Vim community into "traditional" and
                                    > "front-end" programming camps by playing their cultural differences

                                    I have no intent to divide the vim community. My first post is a playful one; of course it's ridiculous to ask anyone to switch professions over indenting. The ridiculousness is intentional. I'm just jealous that I can open sublime text and it indents everything just how I want it (how most of the community has adopted it), vs in vim I have to go through 2 or 3 javascript indenting plugins that all have unique bugs. I could try to fix it (and I have tried to fix it), and then there would be 3 or 4 indenting plugins out there that have unique bugs :) I just haven't promoted my attempt yet, because it is not good.

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