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Re: Official petition for Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer

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  • Robert Melton
    ... Fix them. These don t require massive sweeping changes in Vim core -- they require a domain expert who has a good idea on how it should work who will
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 3, 2013
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      On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Andrew Ray <delvarworld@...> wrote:
      Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax highlighting out of the box is undesirable.

      Fix them.  These don't require massive sweeping changes in Vim core -- they require a domain expert who has a good idea on how it should work who will learn VimL and write the indent and highlighting we deserve. 


      It's time for a change. Many of us want to write javascript in Vim, and want good support for it. The way to get that is for Bram to take up front end development, and learn the pitfalls that we all face. The first time Bram tries to use % on a multi-line < div > tag to jump to its close, we will be one step closer to liberation. With every comma separated var list he tries to write, the drums of freedom beat louder.

      What?  No.  We all have various things we would like to see work better -- lucky that that VAST majority of them can be fixed outside of the core.  Some things need to be fixed in the core, like faster regular expressions.  So I think the focus is in the right place at the moment.  

       
      Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner. Whether we like it or not, many, if not most software implementations and businesses require complex javascript and front end work to function.

      I sense a bit of personal bias here.  Again, nothing stops you from fixing this entirely independently.


      JOIN ME! If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer so that the ever growing world of front end development can be slingshotted into the future, just sign below. Together, with Bram's help, we can make Vim the editor of choice for knocking out front end tasks.

      No, I will not join you, I prefer Bram working on core stuff.  You can make Vim the editor of choice via plugins, no one is standing in your way.


      I, Andrew Ray, petition Bram Moolenar to become a front end developer.

      I, Robert Melton, petition Andrew Ray to realize the power to fix what he dislikes is already available and he should take advantage of it... show us all how it should work!

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      Robert Melton

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    • Linda W
      ... If only Vim had better perl integration...but people want python now sigh. To understand html in full, the parser would have to understand javascript
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 3, 2013
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        Andrew Ray wrote:
        > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax highlighting out of the box is undesirable.
        >
        ---

        If only Vim had better perl integration...but people want python now sigh.

        To understand html in full, the parser would have to understand javascript
        (which can and has been written in itself) as well as a few other dialects
        (SVG, CDATA...etc). As the javascript RE and the python RE both derive from
        perl's syntax, perl would be perfect for parsing either or both. But
        more to
        the point...

        As someone who has programmed, I found I did my best work on things I was
        strongly interested in. Trying to petition him to work on something besides
        what he chooses to is bound to be counterproductive.

        But you are trying to circumvent a system HE put in place to do the will of
        vim-users (albeit, currently paying ones). I.e. if what you are asking was
        really wanted, it would have development votes on vim's wanted feature page,
        and would have been chosen automatically.

        That is a system he put in place specifically to devote some of his time to
        doing what users wanted.

        Like many imperfect things in our world, it is based on popularity and
        perception rather than any, subjectively, objective system of what would be
        best for vim. ;^|


        I want to change your petition to one to have Bram have himself cloned!


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      • Ben Fritz
        ... I m not sure what exactly Bram does at Google...but it s a safe bet they keep him busy, and he s working with software in some way. I d wager he uses Vim
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 3, 2013
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          On Saturday, August 3, 2013 4:59:49 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
          > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages....
          >
          >
          > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner....
          >
          > If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer

          I'm not sure what exactly Bram does at Google...but it's a safe bet they keep him busy, and he's working with software in some way.

          I'd wager he uses Vim for it as well, and might even get inspiration for new features and fixes while doing so.

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        • Paul Stewart
          I second that Robert Sent from my iPad ... -- -- You received this message from the vim_use maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 3, 2013
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            I second that Robert 

            Sent from my iPad

            On Aug 3, 2013, at 18:49, Robert Melton <rmelton@...> wrote:

            On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Andrew Ray <delvarworld@...> wrote:
            Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax highlighting out of the box is undesirable.

            Fix them.  These don't require massive sweeping changes in Vim core -- they require a domain expert who has a good idea on how it should work who will learn VimL and write the indent and highlighting we deserve. 


            It's time for a change. Many of us want to write javascript in Vim, and want good support for it. The way to get that is for Bram to take up front end development, and learn the pitfalls that we all face. The first time Bram tries to use % on a multi-line < div > tag to jump to its close, we will be one step closer to liberation. With every comma separated var list he tries to write, the drums of freedom beat louder.

            What?  No.  We all have various things we would like to see work better -- lucky that that VAST majority of them can be fixed outside of the core.  Some things need to be fixed in the core, like faster regular expressions.  So I think the focus is in the right place at the moment.  

             
            Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner. Whether we like it or not, many, if not most software implementations and businesses require complex javascript and front end work to function.

            I sense a bit of personal bias here.  Again, nothing stops you from fixing this entirely independently.


            JOIN ME! If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer so that the ever growing world of front end development can be slingshotted into the future, just sign below. Together, with Bram's help, we can make Vim the editor of choice for knocking out front end tasks.

            No, I will not join you, I prefer Bram working on core stuff.  You can make Vim the editor of choice via plugins, no one is standing in your way.


            I, Andrew Ray, petition Bram Moolenar to become a front end developer.

            I, Robert Melton, petition Andrew Ray to realize the power to fix what he dislikes is already available and he should take advantage of it... show us all how it should work!

            --
            Robert Melton

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          • Adri Verhoef
            ... [..] ... [..] ... [..] ... [..] Did you ask or discuss this with Bram? What I miss in your piece is Bram s insight on the matter. Also missing is your
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 4, 2013
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              Andrew Ray schreef op 2013-08-03 23:59:
              > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code.
              [..]
              >
              > It's time for a change. Many of us want to write javascript in Vim, and
              > want good support for it. The way to get that is for Bram to take up
              > front end development, and learn the pitfalls that we all face.
              [..]
              >
              > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner.
              [..]
              >
              > JOIN ME!
              [..]

              Did you ask or discuss this with Bram? What I miss in your piece is
              Bram's insight on the matter. Also missing is your insight in what will
              happen to writing C code. Your piece comes out of the blue and
              therefore it doesn't sound like an 'official petition'.

              Adri

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            • Bram Moolenaar
              ... Frontends are written in Java, C++ or a similar language. And yes, I work on some of these (and you probably used it, if you use Gmail or Google search
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 4, 2013
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                Ben Fritz wrote:

                > On Saturday, August 3, 2013 4:59:49 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
                > > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages....
                > >
                > >
                > > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner....
                > >
                > > If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer
                >
                > I'm not sure what exactly Bram does at Google...but it's a safe bet
                > they keep him busy, and he's working with software in some way.

                Frontends are written in Java, C++ or a similar language. And yes, I
                work on some of these (and you probably used it, if you use Gmail or
                Google search :-).

                > I'd wager he uses Vim for it as well, and might even get inspiration
                > for new features and fixes while doing so.

                Sure. Editing JS with Vim works quite well, just a few corner cases
                that have a problem.

                Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                able to handle it.

                --
                hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                47. You are so familiar with the WWW that you find the search engines useless.

                /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
                \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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              • Paul Stewart
                I thought the idea of vim was that it is extensible?.....you can build the plugins...don t expect bram to do it. Sent from my iPad ... -- -- You received this
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 4, 2013
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                  I thought the idea of vim was that it is extensible?.....you can build the plugins...don't expect bram to do it.

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Aug 3, 2013, at 14:59, Andrew Ray <delvarworld@...> wrote:

                  > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax highlighting out of the box is undesirable.
                  >
                  > It's time for a change. Many of us want to write javascript in Vim, and want good support for it. The way to get that is for Bram to take up front end development, and learn the pitfalls that we all face. The first time Bram tries to use % on a multi-line < div > tag to jump to its close, we will be one step closer to liberation. With every comma separated var list he tries to write, the drums of freedom beat louder.
                  >
                  > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner. Whether we like it or not, many, if not most software implementations and businesses require complex javascript and front end work to function.
                  >
                  > JOIN ME! If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer so that the ever growing world of front end development can be slingshotted into the future, just sign below. Together, with Bram's help, we can make Vim the editor of choice for knocking out front end tasks.
                  >
                  > I, Andrew Ray, petition Bram Moolenar to become a front end developer.
                  >
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                • Andy Wokula
                  ... Have you tried a recent version of Vim? The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced. You can send your complaints about unproper HTML indenting to me. And
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 5, 2013
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                    Am 03.08.2013 23:59, schrieb Andrew Ray:
                    > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built
                    > in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But,
                    > times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html.
                    > Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is
                    > very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it
                    > won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax
                    > highlighting out of the box is undesirable.

                    Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
                    The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.
                    You can send your complaints about unproper HTML indenting to me.
                    And please be specific, thanks.

                    --
                    Andy

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                  • Andrew Ray
                    ... does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69 -- -- You received this message from the vim_use maillist. Do not
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 5, 2013
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                      > Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
                      >
                      > The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.

                      <div>
                      <p>
                      <span></span>
                      </p>
                      </div>

                      does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69

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                    • Ben Fritz
                      ... I m still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me: Unless you expect the to be indented
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 5, 2013
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                        On Monday, August 5, 2013 3:03:57 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
                        > > Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
                        > >
                        > > The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.
                        >
                        > <div>
                        > <p>
                        > <span></span>
                        > </p>
                        > </div>
                        >
                        > does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69

                        I'm still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me:

                        <div>
                        <p>
                        <span></span>
                        </p>
                        </div>

                        Unless you expect the <span> to be indented further? I don't really care because sometimes I do:

                        <div>
                        <p>some text
                        goes <span>here</span>
                        like this</p>
                        </div>

                        or even:

                        <div>
                        <p>some text
                        goes <span>here</span>
                        like this
                        </div> <!--I don't actually omit the </p> anymore but I did long ago-->

                        But I guess that's a valid complaint.

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                      • Sayth Renshaw
                        Well I never knew http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php A few things missing in the list was any particular javascript HTML requests, more curious I d
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                          Well I never knew http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php

                          A few things missing in the list was any particular javascript HTML requests, more curious I'd that there wasn't an item about plugins and plugin mgt since its been mentioned in nearly every reply.

                          Vim has pathogen, vimball, vundle and vam. Would have been good for one method from above or combination chosen and given a tighter integration into the core.

                          Sayth

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                        • Charles Campbell
                          ... You are hardly stuck with using cindent. Read :help 30.3 and write your own indenting plugins for whichever languages you want. Put your own versions in
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                            Andrew Ray wrote:
                            > Bram clearly writes a lot of C code. The only "indent" Vim has built in by default is "cindent" (did this come from vi? I don't know). But, times have changed. Developers now write a lot of javascript and html. Vim is not so good at javascript and html. Indenting, for example, is very poor for most front end related languages. Out of the box it won't even indent HTML properly, rendering = useless for us. Syntax highlighting out of the box is undesirable.
                            You are hardly stuck with using cindent. Read :help 30.3 and write
                            your own indenting plugins for whichever languages you want. Put your
                            own versions in $HOME/.vim/indent. Alternatively, send email to the
                            indenting file maintainers and ask them to consider problems you may be
                            having.

                            Don't like the syntax highlighting? Again, there's nothing stopping you
                            from writing your own syntax highlighting files. Read :help syntax .
                            Put your own versions in $HOME/.vim/syntax. Doing so may help you
                            appreciate the difficulties involved.
                            >
                            > It's time for a change. Many of us want to write javascript in Vim, and want good support for it. The way to get that is for Bram to take up front end development, and learn the pitfalls that we all face. The first time Bram tries to use % on a multi-line < div > tag to jump to its close, we will be one step closer to liberation. With every comma separated var list he tries to write, the drums of freedom beat louder.
                            >
                            > Bram can keep writing C code, but it should be on the back burner.
                            Strongly disagree --- even vehemently! If you want to write your own
                            plugins, go ahead and do so. Bram is a miracle worker on vim, and he's
                            been squashing thousands of bugs and enhancing vim, which I, for one,
                            greatly appreciate. I don't write java; there are tens of thousands of
                            programmers who use other languages, including perl, python, matlab,
                            simulink, etc, and have never written a line of java. Vim, of course,
                            may be used with all of those.
                            > Whether we like it or not, many, if not most software implementations and businesses require complex javascript and front end work to function.

                            Yes, and there are many businesses which use little javascript. Ask
                            around -- any javascript users on supercomputers? A lot of those folks
                            still use Fortran. May I respectfully suggest that your vision is
                            strongly limited to your personal environment and that you should
                            broaden your perspective a bit.
                            >
                            > JOIN ME! If you want Bram Moolenaar to become a front end developer so that the ever growing world of front end development can be slingshotted into the future, just sign below. Together, with Bram's help, we can make Vim the editor of choice for knocking out front end tasks.
                            >
                            > I, Andrew Ray, petition Bram Moolenar to become a front end developer.
                            >
                            Regards,
                            Chip Campbell

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                          • Erik Falor
                            ... +1 Thanks, Dr. Chip -- Erik Falor http://unnovative.net Registered Linux User #445632
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                              On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 11:20:15AM -0400, Charles Campbell wrote:
                              > Yes, and there are many businesses which use little javascript. Ask
                              > around -- any javascript users on supercomputers? A lot of those
                              > folks still use Fortran. May I respectfully suggest that your
                              > vision is strongly limited to your personal environment and that you
                              > should broaden your perspective a bit.

                              +1

                              Thanks, Dr. Chip

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                              Registered Linux User #445632 http://linuxcounter.net
                            • Andy Wokula
                              ... Same for the new script. ... With ... in your vimrc (span not actually needed in the example), this becomes some text goes here like
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                                Am 05.08.2013 23:58, schrieb Ben Fritz:
                                > On Monday, August 5, 2013 3:03:57 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ray wrote:
                                >>> Have you tried a recent version of Vim?
                                >>>
                                >>> The indent plugin for HTML has been replaced.
                                >>
                                >> <div>
                                >> <p>
                                >> <span></span>
                                >> </p>
                                >> </div>
                                >>
                                >> does not indent correctly, macvim snapshot 69
                                >
                                > I'm still using the OLD script, and that snippet indents fine for me:
                                >
                                > <div>
                                > <p>
                                > <span></span>
                                > </p>
                                > </div>

                                Same for the new script.

                                > Unless you expect the <span> to be indented further? I don't really care because sometimes I do:
                                >
                                > <div>
                                > <p>some text
                                > goes <span>here</span>
                                > like this</p>
                                > </div>

                                With
                                :let html_indent_inctags = 'p,span'
                                in your vimrc (span not actually needed in the example), this becomes

                                <div>
                                <p>some text
                                goes <span>here</span>
                                like this</p>
                                </div>

                                When used during session you also need to do
                                :call HtmlIndent_CheckUserSettings()

                                (as explained at :h ft-html-indent (available in newer Vims))

                                > or even:
                                >
                                > <div>
                                > <p>some text
                                > goes <span>here</span>
                                > like this
                                > </div> <!--I don't actually omit the </p> anymore but I did long ago-->
                                >
                                > But I guess that's a valid complaint.

                                Valid complaint. I'll try to add support for optional end tags.

                                --
                                Andy

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                              • Andrew Ray
                                ... Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment? At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don t know the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                                  > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                                  >
                                  > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                                  >
                                  > able to handle it.

                                  Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                                  At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                                  know the history though. *Is* it from vi?

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                                • glts
                                  ... C gets special treatment. See cindent , cscope , etc. Lisp gets special treatment. See lispwords , etc. nroff gets special treatment. See sections ,
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                                    On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                                    > > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                                    > > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                                    > > able to handle it.
                                    >
                                    > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                                    > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                                    > know the history though. *Is* it from vi?

                                    C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                                    Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                                    nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                                    And so on.

                                    Vim is all about its history. So what? :)

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                                  • Paul Stewart
                                    Hi folks, I m not sure what folks are getting upset about. Bram has built a fantastic product, and it s extensible, so if you want to make changes or plugins
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                                      Hi folks,

                                      I'm not sure what folks are getting upset about. Bram has built a
                                      fantastic product, and it's extensible, so if you want to make changes
                                      or plugins please go ahead, it will help the entire community.

                                      Don't complain about it, change it.

                                      Thanks

                                      On 08/06/2013 11:45 AM, glts wrote:
                                      > On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                                      >>> Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                                      >>> that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                                      >>> able to handle it.
                                      >> Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                                      >> At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                                      >> know the history though. *Is* it from vi?
                                      > C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                                      > Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                                      > nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                                      > And so on.
                                      >
                                      > Vim is all about its history. So what? :)
                                      >

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                                    • Ben Fritz
                                      ... It looks like indentexpr was introduced back in version 6 sometime. cindent existed before that. My guess is that Bram and other Vim developers
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                                        On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 1:45:28 PM UTC-5, glts wrote:
                                        > On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:05:25 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ray wrote:
                                        > > > Editing HTML is a pain. I hope someone fixes the indent plugin for
                                        > > > that. And no, it's not going to be part of core Vim, a plugin should be
                                        > > > able to handle it.
                                        > >
                                        > > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?
                                        > > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias. I don't
                                        > > know the history though. *Is* it from vi?
                                        >
                                        > C gets special treatment. See 'cindent', 'cscope', etc.
                                        > Lisp gets special treatment. See 'lispwords', etc.
                                        > nroff gets special treatment. See 'sections', 'paragraphs'.
                                        > And so on.
                                        >

                                        It looks like 'indentexpr' was introduced back in version 6 sometime. 'cindent' existed before that.

                                        My guess is that Bram and other Vim developers realized it would be unmaintainable to require a C code patch to support indentation of every single filetype Vim would ever edit. So instead they allowed indenting ANY filetype in an extensible way, by introducing the 'indentexpr' and related options. See :help new-indent-flex. So this is the preferred method going forward.

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                                      • Erik Falor
                                        ... Because Eric Fischer wrote it that way. See then comment in feature.h near the definition of FEAT_CINDENT. ... Because Vim is itself written in C, it
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Aug 6, 2013
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                                          On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 11:05:25AM -0700, Andrew Ray wrote:
                                          > Why is cindent in the core of vim? Why does C get special treatment?

                                          Because Eric Fischer wrote it that way. See then comment in feature.h
                                          near the definition of FEAT_CINDENT.

                                          > At first glance it makes it seem like vim has a language bias.

                                          Because Vim is itself written in C, it stands to reason that the
                                          author(s) would make sure that Vim works very well on C code. It also
                                          stands to reason that early on, C programmers would extend Vim in C.

                                          PROTIP: You sound like a troll when you throw around loaded phrases
                                          like "special treatment" and "bias". If you are genuinely curious
                                          about the history of Vim, I suggest toning your rhetoric down. One
                                          can't help but wonder if other "front-end" developers are as insecure
                                          in their profession as you sound to be.

                                          If your intent is to divide the Vim community into "traditional" and
                                          "front-end" programming camps by playing their cultural differences
                                          against each other, then well played, sir. Now please find a more
                                          useful hobby. Maybe you can make the NSA implode.

                                          --
                                          Erik Falor http://unnovative.net
                                          Registered Linux User #445632 http://linuxcounter.net
                                        • Andrew Ray
                                          ... I used words like seems like and at first glance and I don t know because I was not trolling. Saying something like vim has a language bias would
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Aug 7, 2013
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                                            > PROTIP: You sound like a troll when you throw around loaded phrases
                                            > like "special treatment" and "bias".

                                            I used words like "seems like" and "at first glance" and "I don't know" because I was not trolling. Saying something like "vim has a language bias" would be trolling. I'm just telling you my perception, with an admittance that it's probably wrong. Calling someone a troll might be trolling though ;) so we're both doomed

                                            > If your intent is to divide the Vim community into "traditional" and
                                            > "front-end" programming camps by playing their cultural differences

                                            I have no intent to divide the vim community. My first post is a playful one; of course it's ridiculous to ask anyone to switch professions over indenting. The ridiculousness is intentional. I'm just jealous that I can open sublime text and it indents everything just how I want it (how most of the community has adopted it), vs in vim I have to go through 2 or 3 javascript indenting plugins that all have unique bugs. I could try to fix it (and I have tried to fix it), and then there would be 3 or 4 indenting plugins out there that have unique bugs :) I just haven't promoted my attempt yet, because it is not good.

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