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Re: Relative line numbering and current line

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  • Ben Fritz
    ... I use relative numbering all the time. Before, I occasionally had to switch back and forth between that and absolute. Now, I almost never need to. I LIKE
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 1, 2013
      On Saturday, June 1, 2013 12:13:56 PM UTC-5, Grant wrote:
      > I've been distressed by the direction the discussion on the addition
      >
      > of the absolute line number to the relative line number functionality
      >
      > has gone. More specifically, I don't see enough champions of relative
      >
      > numbering fighting to keep it useful and economical and I'm afraid the
      >
      > discussion with die before fixing the current state of things.
      >
      > Perhaps the problem is that relative number users are too small a
      >
      > minority to fight for themselves. The addition of the current
      >
      > absolute line number to relative line numbering is a serious usability
      >
      > regression for relative numbering and I would hate for it to make it
      >
      > into 7.4 as it is.
      >

      I use relative numbering all the time. Before, I occasionally had to switch back and forth between that and absolute. Now, I almost never need to. I LIKE the absolute number. And I rarely notice either numbering at all, except for when I need it. I think "serious usability regression" is a huge overstatement.

      But, I personally support an option to control this. I like even better the idea of 'relativenumber' and 'number' combining together instead of being mutually exclusive. There have been a couple patches submitted for both of these methods.

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    • tooth pik
      ... I don t -- sorry Ben, but when I want relative numbers, I find the absolute at zero a distraction ... but Bram has been quoted as not wanting more options
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 1, 2013
        On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 10:27:23PM -0700, Ben Fritz wrote:
        > On Saturday, June 1, 2013 12:13:56 PM UTC-5, Grant wrote:
        > > I've been distressed by the direction the discussion on the addition
        > > of the absolute line number to the relative line number functionality
        > > has gone. More specifically, I don't see enough champions of relative
        > > numbering fighting to keep it useful and economical and I'm afraid the
        > > discussion with die before fixing the current state of things.
        > > Perhaps the problem is that relative number users are too small a
        > > minority to fight for themselves. The addition of the current
        > > absolute line number to relative line numbering is a serious usability
        > > regression for relative numbering and I would hate for it to make it
        > > into 7.4 as it is.

        > I use relative numbering all the time. Before, I occasionally had to
        > switch back and forth between that and absolute. Now, I almost never
        > need to. I LIKE the absolute number. And I rarely notice either
        > numbering at all, except for when I need it. I think "serious
        > usability regression" is a huge overstatement.

        I don't -- sorry Ben, but when I want relative numbers, I find the
        absolute at zero a distraction

        > But, I personally support an option to control this. I like even
        > better the idea of 'relativenumber' and 'number' combining together
        > instead of being mutually exclusive. There have been a couple
        > patches submitted for both of these methods.

        but Bram has been quoted as not wanting more options in this area --
        it's a conundrum

        I think gvfarns will be moving this topic to vim_dev -- perhaps we can
        continue there...

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      • glts
        ... Agreed. Backwards compatibility seems to be one of the guiding principles in Vim development. But backwards compatibility is not only a strictly technical
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 2, 2013
          On Saturday, June 1, 2013 7:13:56 PM UTC+2, Grant wrote:
          > ... But I think
          > it is against the spirit of vim that we should remove useful
          > functionality (non-wasteful relative line number functionality) that
          > people depend on without at least giving them some backwards
          > compatibility.

          Agreed.

          Backwards compatibility seems to be one of the guiding principles in Vim
          development. But backwards compatibility is not only a strictly
          technical concept, it should include remaining backwards compatible with
          the reasonable expectations and practices of the users. In that sense,
          the absolute current line number is a decidedly backwards incompatible
          change.

          Anyway, people have made up their minds. Some think it's useful, some
          think it's distracting. For some people it adds value, for some people
          it subtracts value. Let's please make it customizable.

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        • glts
          ... Wait, the big advantage of that little scheme is that no new options are required. number and relativenumber work together to satisfy both the
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 2, 2013
            On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:13:05 AM UTC+2, toothpik wrote:
            > On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 10:27:23PM -0700, Ben Fritz wrote:
            > > But, I personally support an option to control this. I like even
            > > better the idea of 'relativenumber' and 'number' combining together
            > > instead of being mutually exclusive. There have been a couple
            > > patches submitted for both of these methods.
            >
            > but Bram has been quoted as not wanting more options in this area --
            > it's a conundrum

            Wait, the big advantage of that little scheme is that no new options are
            required. 'number' and 'relativenumber' work together to satisfy both
            the absolutists and the relativists (of either kind) alike.

            https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vim_use/fjG8gaeqpRc/zZU4X8_yRGIJ

            The question is whether it is confusing. And I think it is a very valid
            question.

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          • Ben Fritz
            ... I think all it takes is a help note. In :help number replace the bit about resetting relativenumber with something like: If relativenumber is also
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 2, 2013
              On Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:43:06 AM UTC-5, glts wrote:
              > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:13:05 AM UTC+2, toothpik wrote:
              > > On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 10:27:23PM -0700, Ben Fritz wrote:
              > > > But, I personally support an option to control this. I like even
              > > > better the idea of 'relativenumber' and 'number' combining together
              > > > instead of being mutually exclusive. There have been a couple
              > > > patches submitted for both of these methods.
              > >
              > > but Bram has been quoted as not wanting more options in this area --
              > > it's a conundrum
              >
              > Wait, the big advantage of that little scheme is that no new options are
              > required. 'number' and 'relativenumber' work together to satisfy both
              > the absolutists and the relativists (of either kind) alike.
              >
              > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vim_use/fjG8gaeqpRc/zZU4X8_yRGIJ
              >
              > The question is whether it is confusing. And I think it is a very valid
              > question.

              I think all it takes is a help note. In :help 'number' replace the bit about resetting 'relativenumber' with something like:

              "If 'relativenumber' is also set, puts the line number only on the line with the cursor"

              And at :help 'relativenumber' replace the bit about resetting 'number' with something like:

              "If 'number' is also set, the line with the cursor contains the line number, otherwise zero."

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            • tooth pik
              ... +1 Ben! I didn t understand this approach til I saw this email! I like it too. -- _|_ _ __|_|_ ._ o| ... -- -- You received this message from the
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 2, 2013
                On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 12:50:10PM -0700, Ben Fritz wrote:
                > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:43:06 AM UTC-5, glts wrote:
                > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:13:05 AM UTC+2, toothpik wrote:
                > > > On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 10:27:23PM -0700, Ben Fritz wrote:
                > > > > But, I personally support an option to control this. I like even
                > > > > better the idea of 'relativenumber' and 'number' combining together
                > > > > instead of being mutually exclusive. There have been a couple
                > > > > patches submitted for both of these methods.
                > > >
                > > > but Bram has been quoted as not wanting more options in this area --
                > > > it's a conundrum
                > >
                > > Wait, the big advantage of that little scheme is that no new options are
                > > required. 'number' and 'relativenumber' work together to satisfy both
                > > the absolutists and the relativists (of either kind) alike.
                > >
                > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vim_use/fjG8gaeqpRc/zZU4X8_yRGIJ
                > >
                > > The question is whether it is confusing. And I think it is a very valid
                > > question.

                > I think all it takes is a help note. In :help 'number' replace the bit about resetting 'relativenumber' with something like:

                > "If 'relativenumber' is also set, puts the line number only on the line with the cursor"

                > And at :help 'relativenumber' replace the bit about resetting 'number' with something like:

                > "If 'number' is also set, the line with the cursor contains the line number, otherwise zero."

                +1 Ben! I didn't understand this approach til I saw this email! I
                like it too.

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              • Gary Johnson
                ... I like this, too. Even though I don t use and don t even like relativenumber at the moment, I may change my mind. If I do, I d like to be able to try
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 2, 2013
                  On 2013-06-02, tooth pik wrote:
                  > On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 12:50:10PM -0700, Ben Fritz wrote:
                  > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:43:06 AM UTC-5, glts wrote:

                  > > > Wait, the big advantage of that little scheme is that no new options are
                  > > > required. 'number' and 'relativenumber' work together to satisfy both
                  > > > the absolutists and the relativists (of either kind) alike.
                  > > >
                  > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vim_use/fjG8gaeqpRc/zZU4X8_yRGIJ
                  > > >
                  > > > The question is whether it is confusing. And I think it is a very valid
                  > > > question.
                  >
                  > > I think all it takes is a help note. In :help 'number' replace
                  > > the bit about resetting 'relativenumber' with something like:
                  >
                  > > "If 'relativenumber' is also set, puts the line number only on
                  > > the line with the cursor"
                  >
                  > > And at :help 'relativenumber' replace the bit about resetting
                  > > 'number' with something like:
                  >
                  > > "If 'number' is also set, the line with the cursor contains the
                  > > line number, otherwise zero."
                  >
                  > +1 Ben! I didn't understand this approach til I saw this email! I
                  > like it too.

                  I like this, too. Even though I don't use and don't even like
                  'relativenumber' at the moment, I may change my mind. If I do, I'd
                  like to be able to try both formats and choose the one I prefer.
                  This seems like a clean, straightforward solution.

                  Regards,
                  Gary

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                • Chris Lott
                  On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 2:43 PM, tooth pik wrote: ... I echo this sentiment: I really wasn t understanding the issue at all until this
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 2, 2013
                    On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 2:43 PM, tooth pik <toothpik6@...> wrote:

                    Ben Fritz wrote:
                    >> I think all it takes is a help note. In :help 'number' replace the bit about resetting 'relativenumber' with something like:
                    >>
                    >> "If 'relativenumber' is also set, puts the line number only on the line with the cursor"
                    >>
                    >> And at :help 'relativenumber' replace the bit about resetting 'number' with something like:
                    >>
                    >> "If 'number' is also set, the line with the cursor contains the line number, otherwise zero."
                    >>
                    > +1 Ben! I didn't understand this approach til I saw this email! I
                    > like it too.

                    I echo this sentiment: I really wasn't understanding the issue at all
                    until this message. But now I not only understand, but it seems like a
                    preferable setup to me.

                    c
                    --
                    Chris Lott <chris@...>

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