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Re: i write a new vim package/plugin manager like debian's apt

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  • stosss
    ... I can respect your argument and see the validity to it. So tell us why your project to coordinate this effort is better than some of the others that are
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 9, 2013
      On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Marc Weber <marco-oweber@...> wrote:
      > Excerpts from 孔晓泉's message of Sat Mar 09 05:42:23 +0100 2013:
      >> hello everyone:
      >> recently i write a new vim package/plugin manager .because it
      >> operate like dbian's apt, so i call it "vimapt".
      >> here is the repository https://bitbucket.org/howlanderson/vimapt
      >> and some article in my blog http://www.howlanderson.net/?cat=33
      >> Notice: vimapt is just in alpha, unstable and may full of bugs
      >> I hope you can try it, whether you think it is good or bad, please
      >> give me some feedback, Thank you very much!
      >
      > Hy 孔晓泉,
      >
      > In the future please write to the mailinglist *before* you start *yet
      > another package* for doing a task. Because there are already many
      > implementations:
      >
      > pathogen
      > vundle
      > vim-addon-manager
      > vimana
      > (and probbably some more)
      >
      > Then give those projects a try, and consider contributing (if they
      > philosophy is close enough to your ideas) - if not - document in which
      > way your solution is different. This will make it easier for other
      > people to know whether they want to give your solution a try
      >
      > Your very last sentence sasy:
      >
      > == Inspiration and ideas from ==
      > vundle
      > pathogen
      > bundler
      > Scott Bronson
      >
      > which clearly shows that you've missed vim-addon-manager, which might be
      > closest to what you've been looking for.
      >
      > Which in turn makes me think we should no longer wait, we have to setup
      > the git based wiki system on www.vim.org ASAP, else this will happen
      > over and over again and split the community.
      >
      > Its great that people around Vim do solve problems - step up and get it
      > done. But the Vim eco system sucks so much - that energy is wasted a
      > lot. And we as community have to fix that.
      >
      > If you think different don't be shy and tell me.
      >

      I can respect your argument and see the validity to it. So tell us why
      your project to coordinate this effort is better than some of the
      others that are out there? I don't a have a pro or con to yours or any
      of the others that exist or could exist. Also at present I don't use
      any of the existing options. I have I think 3 plugins. But as I
      continue to learn more ways to use vim to a greater degree to
      manipulate text files I might start adding more plugins to my vim
      install. So why should I use any of these efforts?

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    • Charles E Campbell
      Marc Weber wrote: ... No call to panic -- there s plenty of partial duplication out there. In fact, the bundlers themselves are largely duplicative of
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 9, 2013
        Marc Weber wrote:
        <snip>
        > Your very last sentence sasy: == Inspiration and ideas from == vundle
        > pathogen bundler Scott Bronson which clearly shows that you've missed
        > vim-addon-manager, which might be closest to what you've been looking
        > for. Which in turn makes me think we should no longer wait, we have to
        > setup the git based wiki system on www.vim.org ASAP, else this will
        > happen over and over again and split the community. Its great that
        > people around Vim do solve problems - step up and get it done. But the
        > Vim eco system sucks so much - that energy is wasted a lot. And we as
        > community have to fix that. If you think different don't be shy and
        > tell me. Marc Weber
        No call to panic -- there's plenty of partial duplication out there. In
        fact, the bundlers themselves are largely duplicative of what vim
        natively provides. And, there's vim.sf.net, which has been around for
        years. So, git itself is another duplicative source of vim plugins.

        The more the merrier.

        Regards,
        C Campbell

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      • 孔晓泉
        dear Marc Weber: yes, i agree some point of your ideal. now let s explain some thing: 1. vundle && pathogen i read their code and i think their function are
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 9, 2013
          dear Marc Weber:
          yes, i agree some point of your ideal. now let's explain some thing:
          1. vundle && pathogen
          i read their code and i think their function are quite less.
          why i want write a another manager? because:
          1.1 some plugin need out of band program to help them, such as ctag,
          package manager should do something on it
          1.2 some plugin need python support or set nocompatible,but unless you
          read the doc before, you will fall and you don't know why
          1.3 with the plugin's function is more and more complex, some public
          vim script library have appeared "L9 : Vim-script library", dependency
          will manage
          1.4 auto-tools and interaction of other programs, let bash write
          package name into your .vimrc is not the good path, at least i don't
          think so.
          1.5 security, wild plugin on github or something may curse security
          problem, you can't guarantee that. user may write a wrong git address
          that will horrible
          1.6 copyright , although copyright is not your care, but in law, it is required
          2. vim-addon-manager
          sorry, that's my fault. but there is too many plugin manager called
          "vim-addon-manager". what i first found it's the ubuntu's package
          called "vim-addon-manager" which is write in ruby. well i don't like
          that, not only you will install ruby for this but also i hate ruby
          things for my personal reason. and it's looks not a good manager in my
          point of view. may be what your means "vim-addon-manager" is this
          http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2905 or
          https://github.com/MarcWeber/vim-addon-manager which may write by you
          judged by author's name. it's really a good job. it look's a little
          simlar to my job on functions.
          3. vimapt
          Sentence summary is "apt on vim", this is what i want

          If you think different don't be shy and tell me.


          2013/3/9 Marc Weber <marco-oweber@...>:
          > Excerpts from 孔晓泉's message of Sat Mar 09 05:42:23 +0100 2013:
          >> hello everyone:
          >> recently i write a new vim package/plugin manager .because it
          >> operate like dbian's apt, so i call it "vimapt".
          >> here is the repository https://bitbucket.org/howlanderson/vimapt
          >> and some article in my blog http://www.howlanderson.net/?cat=33
          >> Notice: vimapt is just in alpha, unstable and may full of bugs
          >> I hope you can try it, whether you think it is good or bad, please
          >> give me some feedback, Thank you very much!
          >
          > Hy 孔晓泉,
          >
          > In the future please write to the mailinglist *before* you start *yet
          > another package* for doing a task. Because there are already many
          > implementations:
          >
          > pathogen
          > vundle
          > vim-addon-manager
          > vimana
          > (and probbably some more)
          >
          > Then give those projects a try, and consider contributing (if they
          > philosophy is close enough to your ideas) - if not - document in which
          > way your solution is different. This will make it easier for other
          > people to know whether they want to give your solution a try
          >
          > Your very last sentence sasy:
          >
          > == Inspiration and ideas from ==
          > vundle
          > pathogen
          > bundler
          > Scott Bronson
          >
          > which clearly shows that you've missed vim-addon-manager, which might be
          > closest to what you've been looking for.
          >
          > Which in turn makes me think we should no longer wait, we have to setup
          > the git based wiki system on www.vim.org ASAP, else this will happen
          > over and over again and split the community.
          >
          > Its great that people around Vim do solve problems - step up and get it
          > done. But the Vim eco system sucks so much - that energy is wasted a
          > lot. And we as community have to fix that.
          >
          > If you think different don't be shy and tell me.
          >
          > Marc Weber
          >
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          >
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          >
          >

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        • Ben Fritz
          ... All the OP would have needed to do to figure out that his problem had already been solved, is to visit Google or Bing or whatever and type vim plugin
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 9, 2013
            On Saturday, March 9, 2013 4:06:10 AM UTC-6, MarcWeber wrote:
            >
            > which clearly shows that you've missed vim-addon-manager, which might be
            >
            > closest to what you've been looking for.
            >
            >
            >
            > Which in turn makes me think we should no longer wait, we have to setup
            >
            > the git based wiki system on www.vim.org ASAP, else this will happen
            >
            > over and over again and split the community.
            >
            >
            >
            > Its great that people around Vim do solve problems - step up and get it
            >
            > done. But the Vim eco system sucks so much - that energy is wasted a
            >
            > lot. And we as community have to fix that.
            >

            All the OP would have needed to do to figure out that his problem had already been solved, is to visit Google or Bing or whatever and type "vim plugin manager" in the search box.

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          • 孔晓泉
            dear Charles E Campbell and stosss: maybe you can find my answer in to Marc Weber s letter. sorry. i have something to do this morning. so i don t have much
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 9, 2013
              dear Charles E Campbell and stosss:

              maybe you can find my answer in to Marc Weber's letter. sorry. i have
              something to do this morning. so i don't have much time. if not i will
              explain to your question myself. Happy to discuss with you all. Thank
              you for your pingback.

              2013/3/10 孔晓泉 <u1mail2me@...>:
              > dear Marc Weber:
              > yes, i agree some point of your ideal. now let's explain some thing:
              > 1. vundle && pathogen
              > i read their code and i think their function are quite less.
              > why i want write a another manager? because:
              > 1.1 some plugin need out of band program to help them, such as ctag,
              > package manager should do something on it
              > 1.2 some plugin need python support or set nocompatible,but unless you
              > read the doc before, you will fall and you don't know why
              > 1.3 with the plugin's function is more and more complex, some public
              > vim script library have appeared "L9 : Vim-script library", dependency
              > will manage
              > 1.4 auto-tools and interaction of other programs, let bash write
              > package name into your .vimrc is not the good path, at least i don't
              > think so.
              > 1.5 security, wild plugin on github or something may curse security
              > problem, you can't guarantee that. user may write a wrong git address
              > that will horrible
              > 1.6 copyright , although copyright is not your care, but in law, it is required
              > 2. vim-addon-manager
              > sorry, that's my fault. but there is too many plugin manager called
              > "vim-addon-manager". what i first found it's the ubuntu's package
              > called "vim-addon-manager" which is write in ruby. well i don't like
              > that, not only you will install ruby for this but also i hate ruby
              > things for my personal reason. and it's looks not a good manager in my
              > point of view. may be what your means "vim-addon-manager" is this
              > http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2905 or
              > https://github.com/MarcWeber/vim-addon-manager which may write by you
              > judged by author's name. it's really a good job. it look's a little
              > simlar to my job on functions.
              > 3. vimapt
              > Sentence summary is "apt on vim", this is what i want
              >
              > If you think different don't be shy and tell me.
              >
              >
              > 2013/3/9 Marc Weber <marco-oweber@...>:
              >> Excerpts from 孔晓泉's message of Sat Mar 09 05:42:23 +0100 2013:
              >>> hello everyone:
              >>> recently i write a new vim package/plugin manager .because it
              >>> operate like dbian's apt, so i call it "vimapt".
              >>> here is the repository https://bitbucket.org/howlanderson/vimapt
              >>> and some article in my blog http://www.howlanderson.net/?cat=33
              >>> Notice: vimapt is just in alpha, unstable and may full of bugs
              >>> I hope you can try it, whether you think it is good or bad, please
              >>> give me some feedback, Thank you very much!
              >>
              >> Hy 孔晓泉,
              >>
              >> In the future please write to the mailinglist *before* you start *yet
              >> another package* for doing a task. Because there are already many
              >> implementations:
              >>
              >> pathogen
              >> vundle
              >> vim-addon-manager
              >> vimana
              >> (and probbably some more)
              >>
              >> Then give those projects a try, and consider contributing (if they
              >> philosophy is close enough to your ideas) - if not - document in which
              >> way your solution is different. This will make it easier for other
              >> people to know whether they want to give your solution a try
              >>
              >> Your very last sentence sasy:
              >>
              >> == Inspiration and ideas from ==
              >> vundle
              >> pathogen
              >> bundler
              >> Scott Bronson
              >>
              >> which clearly shows that you've missed vim-addon-manager, which might be
              >> closest to what you've been looking for.
              >>
              >> Which in turn makes me think we should no longer wait, we have to setup
              >> the git based wiki system on www.vim.org ASAP, else this will happen
              >> over and over again and split the community.
              >>
              >> Its great that people around Vim do solve problems - step up and get it
              >> done. But the Vim eco system sucks so much - that energy is wasted a
              >> lot. And we as community have to fix that.
              >>
              >> If you think different don't be shy and tell me.
              >>
              >> Marc Weber
              >>
              >> --
              >> --
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              >> Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
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              >>
              >>

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            • Jon Cairns
              ... Is this really a problem? Bottom line is this: coding is fun. People should write more code, and open source it. I would encourage people to solve problems
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 11, 2013
                > Its great that people around Vim do solve problems - step up and get it
                >
                > done. But the Vim eco system sucks so much - that energy is wasted a
                >
                > lot. And we as community have to fix that.

                Is this really a problem? Bottom line is this: coding is fun. People should write more code, and open source it. I would encourage people to solve problems that have been solved before, purely because it's fun to solve problems and that's how you learn. It can be a lot harder to contribute to existing projects, and you may not be ready to take on that challenge.

                If the OP had said that he wrote it because all other package managers sucked then I'd have a problem with that, but it sounds like he's doing it for fun and seeing where it's going.

                Open source software has a life of its own anyway: people will only adopt it if it has genuine benefit over other options. I've written a few plugins, some of which have been adopted by quite a few people, and some that have literally no adoption. But I use them all every day, and choose to open source them just in case their slight differences to other plugins are just what others need too.

                I do think you have a valid point, but I think that the greatest danger here is quenching people in the open source community from doing what we do.

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              • Marc Weber
                ... The community has resources. And the community has wishes. The better the resources are spent on what makes the community happy - the better for everyone
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 11, 2013
                  > @C Campbell
                  > The more the merrier:
                  The community has resources. And the community has wishes. The better the
                  resources are spent on what makes the community happy - the better for everyone
                  (IMHO).
                  If evrybody keeps solving the same task over and over again -> no progress.
                  I know its part of life - but still we as community can try to optimize it - or
                  be careless. I want to take care.

                  If people want to redo something for joy they may do it. But if they announce
                  on the mailinglist I think they should also tell people about why they think their
                  tool should be used by users.

                  @孔晓泉
                  I like you participating.

                  > 1.1 some plugin need out of band program to help them, such as ctag,
                  > package manager should do something on it
                  Can you tell me why you think it should be the "package managers task" to
                  provide ctags?

                  To prevent "desperation" on user's side 3 lines are enough:

                  if !executable('ctags')
                  echoe 'well, you don't have ctags. Read the docs to learn where to get it'
                  endif

                  Let's think the way you do: It should be the task of the package manager to do this:
                  What would be required? A solution for:
                  windows
                  linux (there are many different packaging systems around, at least yum, apt-get, nix)

                  For this reason I agree that it would be nice if "vim" could just install a package.
                  But in fact I think it would be enough if Vim showed a hint:
                  "do apt-get install ctags"

                  Maybe we could even write a viml plugin doing exactly that: propose
                  installing packages if they don't exist. Then you could use

                  call vim_install_helper#SuggestInstall("ctags")

                  and it would be the task of the plugin to figure out which is the best
                  way to install ctags on the operating system the user is running.

                  If there is no implementation it would just say:
                  "ctags required, don't know how to suggest installing it. Please patch
                  me and contribute".

                  I don't want vim to run sudo apt-get .. anyway without being asked. So
                  creating a new install hepler plugin seems to be the right thing to do.

                  So I think its the task of the plugin to check whether all conditions are met
                  so that it can be run. But I disagree that its the task of the plugin or the
                  package manager to decide on which packages I want to in install on my computer.

                  > 1.2 some plugin need python support or set nocompatible,but unless you
                  > read the doc before, you will fall and you don't know why

                  Again, I disagree. I don't want a vim plugin manager to
                  1) download vim source
                  2) configure it
                  3) compile and install it somewhere

                  which is a better way to handle it?

                  fun CheckThenRun(fun, args)
                  if !has('python')
                  throw "this plugin requires python support"
                  endif

                  return call(a:fun, args)
                  endf

                  Then you can use

                  map <F2> :call CheckThenRun('your_impl#Fun',[<f-args>])

                  or the like - and user will get a nice message telling him what's wrong.

                  > 1.4 auto-tools and interaction of other programs, let bash write
                  > package name into your .vimrc is not the good path, at least i don't
                  > think so.
                  Of course you have to think twice or trice before doing such.
                  But why is it necessary ? Which problem is solved by such a bash script?

                  2.
                  vim-addon-manager: Yes, its about that github page, it was initiated by me.
                  Today its maintained by me and ZyX.

                  3. apt on vim?

                  apt: its you calling
                  apt install foo
                  apt install bar

                  apt writes to a databse "foo and bar are installed"

                  How does VAM solve this? Compared to apt Vim tries to be declarative (as much
                  as declarative as you can be):

                  You add to your .vimrc:

                  call make_sure_vam_is_installed_otherwise_checkout_from_git()
                  vam#Activate(["foo","bar"])


                  Then you don't have to install apt, all you have to do is copy your .vimrc in
                  place and make sure you have git.

                  Next difference. Let's think about this use case:

                  When coding java you want plugin A,B
                  when coding viml you want plugin A,C

                  but you can't use B and C together.

                  With VAM you can activate B or C as needed, eg by using project
                  setup viml file sourced by vim-addon-local-vimrc.

                  For this reason I think that I'm more likely to run into trouble using apt like
                  system. I don't want to go back to apt, cause I know and I'm used to the same
                  declarative way nixos manages linux packgaes - I can't go back.

                  @Ben Fritz:

                  > All the OP would have needed to do to figure out that his problem had
                  > already been solved, is to visit Google or Bing or
                  > whatever and type "vim plugin manager" in the search box.
                  Sorry, I personally believe in the community being able to do a better job than
                  google does. Google never forgets - but a guide about how to use vim should
                  forget some ideas or mark them as outdated.

                  @Jon Cairns
                  > Is it a problem ? coding is fun?
                  If 孔晓泉 was coding it for fun, you're right. At this point I'd be interested
                  in whether he has more ideas about what could be coded using his resources - features /
                  plugins/ software which does not exist yet.

                  I don't want to prevent people from having joy. But I want to ask them whether they
                  want to use existing solutions first, then spend their time on new
                  things (which are also joyful).

                  > If the OP had said that he wrote it because all other package managers sucked
                  > then I'd have a problem with that, but it sou
                  > like he's doing it for fun and seeing where it's going.
                  He didn't use the word "suck", but he said he wants new features which the
                  plugin managers he had looked at don't have yet.

                  > I do think you have a valid point, but I think that the greatest danger here
                  > is quenching people in the open source community
                  > from doing what we do.
                  Live is short - too short to do something twice for the sake of doing it.
                  I personally was doing all the work because I was missing features. And I spent
                  a *lot* of time. I wished I could just have done my real job instead.
                  Your thinking may be different - and I accept it. So I encourage you to stop me
                  when thinking I'm preventing people from having joy within the vim community.
                  So please keep reading and commenting on the mailinglist.

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                • 孔晓泉
                  hello @Marc Weber: Your description made¡¡me see your s deep vimscript foundation.And observation of things nuanced and you and XyZ s VAM is more power than
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 12, 2013
                    hello @Marc Weber:
                    Your description made me see your's deep vimscript foundation.And
                    observation of things nuanced
                    and you and XyZ 's VAM is more power than i think
                    you really give some point and make me improved
                    but i think you take some mistakes on me and my ideal on vimapt.
                    >> 1.1 some plugin need out of band program to help them, such as ctag,
                    >> package manager should do something on it
                    > Can you tell me why you think it should be the "package managers task" to
                    > provide ctags?
                    sorry , i write here is "do something on it".
                    i not say "here i can't find ctags, vimapt come here, fix it for me"
                    the package manager:
                    1. can install the ctags (auto or ask the user before do it);
                    2. can give info to user like "sorry guys, i can't found ctags, make
                    sure you install it or in the system path var";
                    3. can give suggest to user like "the ctags is 404, you can use sudo
                    apt-get install ctags to install ctags".
                    above both are the meaning for "do something on it"
                    but which one or two or thress is/are the best "do something on it"?
                    i don't know.
                    but i think your are right at "provide ctags" is hard on so many os
                    and maybe some people don't like this.
                    so maybe one or more is(are) the best way to "do something on it", it
                    depands on implement and user option.
                    if the plugin provide the function to check environment is a good choice,
                    but if the package manager provide a uniform interface to handle this
                    job. it maybe more better.

                    >> 1.2 some plugin need python support or set nocompatible,but unless you
                    >> read the doc before, you will fall and you don't know why
                    here i means some plugin like "The NERD Commenter "
                    it had says "Make sure that you have filetype plugins enabled"
                    but if you don't read this and you install it, it not work or not work correct
                    so package manager "do something on it": give info or suggest or do
                    add to some vimrc file
                    at least do one thing on it

                    >> 1.4 auto-tools and interaction of other programs, let bash write
                    >> package name into your .vimrc is not the good path, at least i don't
                    >> think so.
                    here i means if you install some language maybe called "xxoo"
                    the "xxoo" language want install it's helper plugin to vim for help
                    you to more quick write "xxoo"
                    how it do it? maybe write a line to your .vimrc like this
                    "SomePluginManager#install('xxoo-help')"
                    i don't think is the good way, may the "xxoo" call a standard command
                    once: "InstallPackge('xxoo')" can slove this problem
                    i think it's more good in my ideal.

                    > 3. apt on vim?
                    >
                    > apt: its you calling
                    > apt install foo
                    > apt install bar
                    it's the biggest mistake for vimapt
                    vimapt is "apt on vim".it means "vimapt use apt the concept imitate,
                    imitate apt mechanism"
                    not means it's base on apt or other linux package manager software.

                    2013/3/11 Marc Weber <marco-oweber@...>:
                    >> @C Campbell
                    >> The more the merrier:
                    > The community has resources. And the community has wishes. The better the
                    > resources are spent on what makes the community happy - the better for everyone
                    > (IMHO).
                    > If evrybody keeps solving the same task over and over again -> no progress.
                    > I know its part of life - but still we as community can try to optimize it - or
                    > be careless. I want to take care.
                    >
                    > If people want to redo something for joy they may do it. But if they announce
                    > on the mailinglist I think they should also tell people about why they think their
                    > tool should be used by users.
                    >
                    > @孔晓泉
                    > I like you participating.
                    >
                    >> 1.1 some plugin need out of band program to help them, such as ctag,
                    >> package manager should do something on it
                    > Can you tell me why you think it should be the "package managers task" to
                    > provide ctags?
                    >
                    > To prevent "desperation" on user's side 3 lines are enough:
                    >
                    > if !executable('ctags')
                    > echoe 'well, you don't have ctags. Read the docs to learn where to get it'
                    > endif
                    >
                    > Let's think the way you do: It should be the task of the package manager to do this:
                    > What would be required? A solution for:
                    > windows
                    > linux (there are many different packaging systems around, at least yum, apt-get, nix)
                    >
                    > For this reason I agree that it would be nice if "vim" could just install a package.
                    > But in fact I think it would be enough if Vim showed a hint:
                    > "do apt-get install ctags"
                    >
                    > Maybe we could even write a viml plugin doing exactly that: propose
                    > installing packages if they don't exist. Then you could use
                    >
                    > call vim_install_helper#SuggestInstall("ctags")
                    >
                    > and it would be the task of the plugin to figure out which is the best
                    > way to install ctags on the operating system the user is running.
                    >
                    > If there is no implementation it would just say:
                    > "ctags required, don't know how to suggest installing it. Please patch
                    > me and contribute".
                    >
                    > I don't want vim to run sudo apt-get .. anyway without being asked. So
                    > creating a new install hepler plugin seems to be the right thing to do.
                    >
                    > So I think its the task of the plugin to check whether all conditions are met
                    > so that it can be run. But I disagree that its the task of the plugin or the
                    > package manager to decide on which packages I want to in install on my computer.
                    >
                    >> 1.2 some plugin need python support or set nocompatible,but unless you
                    >> read the doc before, you will fall and you don't know why
                    >
                    > Again, I disagree. I don't want a vim plugin manager to
                    > 1) download vim source
                    > 2) configure it
                    > 3) compile and install it somewhere
                    >
                    > which is a better way to handle it?
                    >
                    > fun CheckThenRun(fun, args)
                    > if !has('python')
                    > throw "this plugin requires python support"
                    > endif
                    >
                    > return call(a:fun, args)
                    > endf
                    >
                    > Then you can use
                    >
                    > map <F2> :call CheckThenRun('your_impl#Fun',[<f-args>])
                    >
                    > or the like - and user will get a nice message telling him what's wrong.
                    >
                    >> 1.4 auto-tools and interaction of other programs, let bash write
                    >> package name into your .vimrc is not the good path, at least i don't
                    >> think so.
                    > Of course you have to think twice or trice before doing such.
                    > But why is it necessary ? Which problem is solved by such a bash script?
                    >
                    > 2.
                    > vim-addon-manager: Yes, its about that github page, it was initiated by me.
                    > Today its maintained by me and ZyX.
                    >
                    > 3. apt on vim?
                    >
                    > apt: its you calling
                    > apt install foo
                    > apt install bar
                    >
                    > apt writes to a databse "foo and bar are installed"
                    >
                    > How does VAM solve this? Compared to apt Vim tries to be declarative (as much
                    > as declarative as you can be):
                    >
                    > You add to your .vimrc:
                    >
                    > call make_sure_vam_is_installed_otherwise_checkout_from_git()
                    > vam#Activate(["foo","bar"])
                    >
                    >
                    > Then you don't have to install apt, all you have to do is copy your .vimrc in
                    > place and make sure you have git.
                    >
                    > Next difference. Let's think about this use case:
                    >
                    > When coding java you want plugin A,B
                    > when coding viml you want plugin A,C
                    >
                    > but you can't use B and C together.
                    >
                    > With VAM you can activate B or C as needed, eg by using project
                    > setup viml file sourced by vim-addon-local-vimrc.
                    >
                    > For this reason I think that I'm more likely to run into trouble using apt like
                    > system. I don't want to go back to apt, cause I know and I'm used to the same
                    > declarative way nixos manages linux packgaes - I can't go back.
                    >
                    > @Ben Fritz:
                    >
                    >> All the OP would have needed to do to figure out that his problem had
                    >> already been solved, is to visit Google or Bing or
                    >> whatever and type "vim plugin manager" in the search box.
                    > Sorry, I personally believe in the community being able to do a better job than
                    > google does. Google never forgets - but a guide about how to use vim should
                    > forget some ideas or mark them as outdated.
                    >
                    > @Jon Cairns
                    >> Is it a problem ? coding is fun?
                    > If 孔晓泉 was coding it for fun, you're right. At this point I'd be interested
                    > in whether he has more ideas about what could be coded using his resources - features /
                    > plugins/ software which does not exist yet.
                    >
                    > I don't want to prevent people from having joy. But I want to ask them whether they
                    > want to use existing solutions first, then spend their time on new
                    > things (which are also joyful).
                    >
                    >> If the OP had said that he wrote it because all other package managers sucked
                    >> then I'd have a problem with that, but it sou
                    >> like he's doing it for fun and seeing where it's going.
                    > He didn't use the word "suck", but he said he wants new features which the
                    > plugin managers he had looked at don't have yet.
                    >
                    >> I do think you have a valid point, but I think that the greatest danger here
                    >> is quenching people in the open source community
                    >> from doing what we do.
                    > Live is short - too short to do something twice for the sake of doing it.
                    > I personally was doing all the work because I was missing features. And I spent
                    > a *lot* of time. I wished I could just have done my real job instead.
                    > Your thinking may be different - and I accept it. So I encourage you to stop me
                    > when thinking I'm preventing people from having joy within the vim community.
                    > So please keep reading and commenting on the mailinglist.
                    >
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                  • Marc Weber
                    ... If it was a plugin - all package managers could be used .. ... You re right. But almost all .vimrc samples contain it. And this is hard to avoid without
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 12, 2013
                      > but if the package manager provide a uniform interface to handle this
                      > job. it maybe more better.
                      If it was a plugin - all package managers could be used ..

                      > >> 1.2 some plugin need python support or set nocompatible,but unless
                      > >> you
                      > >> read the doc before, you will fall and you don't know why
                      You're right. But almost all .vimrc samples contain it. And this is hard
                      to avoid without breaking backward compatibility.
                      I'd vote for making "nocompatible" default instantly.

                      For nocomp you can check :echo &compatible
                      For filetype I don't know exactly - maybe somebody else know.

                      I personally struggeled with closing Vim coming from a Windows world
                      years ago, - I had trouble understand the help screen which says:

                      type :q<Enter> to exit

                      Because it didn't come to my mind that the : belongs to the keys to be
                      typed.
                      I think its more important to tell people about where to get help
                      (mailinglist, irc, ...) because this kind of problem is solved fast.

                      > [.. many lines you didn't reply to ..]
                      @孔晓泉: Consider removing email text you're not replying to.

                      Meanwhile I've also read your blog post:
                      http://www.howlanderson.net/?cat=33

                      I find this interesting:

                      quote:
                      The concept of the warehouse Provide similar linux distro warehouses
                      similar standardized the remote packet warehouse, provide carefully
                      check the package through a rigorous screening provides official
                      assurance (TODO: due to staffing and funding issues, is preparing for
                      the official repository for vim plugin)

                      especially:
                      rigorous screening provides official assurance

                      Do you think somebody will provide the man power to review all packages
                      available (or let's say most packages being used?)

                      Eventually vim-scripts.org could be called such a warehouse, but without
                      screening.

                      If you want to collaborate with the VAM team on some topics keep in
                      touch.

                      Yours
                      Marc Weber

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                    • Marcin Szamotulski
                      ... I think this blog post nicely illustrates why we need more cooperation on vim.org: http://delvarworld.github.com/blog/2013/03/16/just-use-sublime-text/
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 22, 2013
                        On 13:47 Tue 12 Mar , Marc Weber wrote:
                        > > but if the package manager provide a uniform interface to handle this
                        > > job. it maybe more better.
                        > If it was a plugin - all package managers could be used ..
                        >
                        > > >> 1.2 some plugin need python support or set nocompatible,but unless
                        > > >> you
                        > > >> read the doc before, you will fall and you don't know why
                        > You're right. But almost all .vimrc samples contain it. And this is hard
                        > to avoid without breaking backward compatibility.
                        > I'd vote for making "nocompatible" default instantly.
                        >
                        > For nocomp you can check :echo &compatible
                        > For filetype I don't know exactly - maybe somebody else know.
                        >
                        > I personally struggeled with closing Vim coming from a Windows world
                        > years ago, - I had trouble understand the help screen which says:
                        >
                        > type :q<Enter> to exit
                        >
                        > Because it didn't come to my mind that the : belongs to the keys to be
                        > typed.
                        > I think its more important to tell people about where to get help
                        > (mailinglist, irc, ...) because this kind of problem is solved fast.
                        >
                        > > [.. many lines you didn't reply to ..]
                        > @孔晓泉: Consider removing email text you're not replying to.
                        >
                        > Meanwhile I've also read your blog post:
                        > http://www.howlanderson.net/?cat=33
                        >
                        > I find this interesting:
                        >
                        > quote:
                        > The concept of the warehouse Provide similar linux distro warehouses
                        > similar standardized the remote packet warehouse, provide carefully
                        > check the package through a rigorous screening provides official
                        > assurance (TODO: due to staffing and funding issues, is preparing for
                        > the official repository for vim plugin)
                        >
                        > especially:
                        > rigorous screening provides official assurance
                        >
                        > Do you think somebody will provide the man power to review all packages
                        > available (or let's say most packages being used?)
                        >
                        > Eventually vim-scripts.org could be called such a warehouse, but without
                        > screening.
                        >
                        > If you want to collaborate with the VAM team on some topics keep in
                        > touch.
                        >
                        > Yours
                        > Marc Weber
                        >
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                        > Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                        > For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
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                        >

                        I think this blog post nicely illustrates why we need more cooperation
                        on vim.org:
                        http://delvarworld.github.com/blog/2013/03/16/just-use-sublime-text/

                        Best regards,
                        Marcin

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