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  • Erik Christiansen
    Checking today why my latest post on the Re: Gurus - does/can Vim have a functionality resembling Info? thread hadn t appeared here, I found it in my spam
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 16, 2013
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      Checking today why my latest post on the "Re: Gurus - does/can Vim have
      a functionality resembling Info?" thread hadn't appeared here, I found it in
      my spam folder. The cause is startling:

      Message-ID: <20130216123314.GF2005@ratatosk>
      ...
      X-SpamDetect: *********: 9.055555 IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0, IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, Aspam=5.1
      X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups -post +https +subscribed
      X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
      X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m639.msg

      While looking in the spam folder, I found:

      From: Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...>
      ...
      Subject: Re: Windows ALT characters
      ...
      X-SpamDetect: ************: 12.700000 IronPort detected Spam=19.0, IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, From3consonants=0.7, Aspam=3.0
      X-Aspam: Words 0.0 -because -received -visit -group -options -groups -post -https -subscribed
      X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 yahoo.com google.com
      X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m588.msg

      and:

      From: Ben Fritz <fritzophrenic@...>
      ...
      Subject: Re: ctags processing jumps to wrong tag?
      ...
      X-SpamDetect: **********: 10.416555 Adult word cum=0.7, IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0, IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, From3consonants=0.7, Aspam=5.1
      X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups -post +https +subscribed
      X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
      X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m614.msg

      But 99% of posts are not similarly mis-flagged (by google AFAICT).

      Is this causing similar havoc elsewhere? False positives in spam
      detection seem to totally negate the process's value. Is it google who I
      have to try to complain to? (The guilty party isn't exactly nailing its
      colours to the mast in the headers.)

      Erik

      --
      In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
      and much more difficult to find." - Terry Pratchett

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    • John Beckett
      ... I have previously noticed that Google sometimes flags good mail as spam when large quotes from an earlier message have not been removed. I have often seen
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 16, 2013
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        Erik Christiansen wrote:
        > While looking in the spam folder, I found:
        > ...
        > But 99% of posts are not similarly mis-flagged

        I have previously noticed that Google sometimes flags good mail
        as spam when large quotes from an earlier message have not been
        removed. I have often seen that (although not recently) when
        Google moves a message to the "pending" queue of messages which
        need manager approval to be delivered to the list. That queue
        is intended for new members (who are banned if their post is
        spam), but it also holds messages from regular members if Google
        thinks the message "may be spam".

        My preference would be for nearly all replies to have
        unnecessary quotebacks removed, and that would solve the major
        problem. There is no way we could influence Google's spam
        detection features, so it's something to be fixed either by the
        sender, or by a receiver somehow whitelisting the sender.

        John

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      • John Little
        Just had a quick look in my gmail spam folder, and didn t see any headers like you report. Why would you complain to Google? Are they your mail provider?
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 16, 2013
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          Just had a quick look in my gmail spam folder, and didn't see any headers like you report. Why would you complain to Google? Are they your mail provider?

          Regards, John Little

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        • Erik Christiansen
          ... No. The footer and the headers in the misclassified posts suggest to me that they are spuriously spam-labelling our list mail. Perhaps there is so much
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 16, 2013
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            On 16.02.13 20:02, John Little wrote:
            > Just had a quick look in my gmail spam folder, and didn't see any
            > headers like you report.
            > Why would you complain to Google?

            Please examine the footer from your own post:

            > ---
            > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
            > Groups "vim_use" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
            > receiving emails from it, send an email to
            > vim_use+unsubscribe@.... For more options, visit
            > https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
            >

            > Are they your mail provider?

            No. The footer and the headers in the misclassified posts suggest to me
            that they are spuriously spam-labelling our list mail. Perhaps there is
            so much spam out there that incredibly stupid filtering, such as
            classifying google's own footer as spam, is worth the biscuit:

            X-SpamDetect: *********: 9.055555 IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0,
            IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, Aspam=5.1
            X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups
            -post +https +subscribed
            X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
            X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m639.msg

            While classifying a list post as spam because it contains the words
            "because, received, and subscribed", seems in itself entirely
            dysfunctional, it escalates to perversity when they have themselves
            inserted the text at which they take offence. Is Google totally nuts?

            Can our list admins fix the footer, to avoid google's landmines?

            Erik

            --
            A computer is like an air conditioner, it works poorly when you open Windows.

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          • stosss
            On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Erik Christiansen ... Something else is going on somewhere. I use gmail and I don t have any problems getting mail from this
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 16, 2013
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              On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Erik Christiansen
              <dvalin@...> wrote:
              > On 16.02.13 20:02, John Little wrote:
              >> Just had a quick look in my gmail spam folder, and didn't see any
              >> headers like you report.
              >> Why would you complain to Google?
              >
              > Please examine the footer from your own post:
              >
              >> ---
              >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
              >> Groups "vim_use" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
              >> receiving emails from it, send an email to
              >> vim_use+unsubscribe@.... For more options, visit
              >> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
              >>
              >
              >> Are they your mail provider?
              >
              > No. The footer and the headers in the misclassified posts suggest to me
              > that they are spuriously spam-labelling our list mail. Perhaps there is
              > so much spam out there that incredibly stupid filtering, such as
              > classifying google's own footer as spam, is worth the biscuit:
              >
              > X-SpamDetect: *********: 9.055555 IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0,
              > IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, Aspam=5.1
              > X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups
              > -post +https +subscribed
              > X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
              > X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m639.msg
              >
              > While classifying a list post as spam because it contains the words
              > "because, received, and subscribed", seems in itself entirely
              > dysfunctional, it escalates to perversity when they have themselves
              > inserted the text at which they take offence. Is Google totally nuts?
              >
              > Can our list admins fix the footer, to avoid google's landmines?
              >
              > Erik
              >
              > --
              > A computer is like an air conditioner, it works poorly when you open Windows.
              >
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              >
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              >
              >

              Something else is going on somewhere. I use gmail and I don't have any
              problems getting mail from this list. If Google thinks something is
              spam and I have set a filter so it puts the mail where I want it and
              not in the spam folder Google complains saying this should be spam but
              you have set filters to keep it out of spam. I don't get that annoying
              message with this list. There are a few other list that I do get it
              but I just ignore it. I also check my spam folder and trash folder
              regularly and tell Google it screwed up when it does which is not very
              often.

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            • Benjamin R. Haskell
              ... Google has nothing to do with the spam headers you re showing us. vim-use@vim.org is an alias to vim_use@googlegroups.com. The vim-use list is a Google
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 16, 2013
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                On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Erik Christiansen wrote:

                > On 16.02.13 20:02, John Little wrote:
                >> Just had a quick look in my gmail spam folder, and didn't see any
                >> headers like you report.
                >> Why would you complain to Google?
                >
                > Please examine the footer from your own post:
                >
                >> ---
                >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
                >> Groups "vim_use" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
                >> receiving emails from it, send an email to
                >> vim_use+unsubscribe@.... For more options, visit
                >> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
                >>
                >
                >> Are they your mail provider?
                >
                > No. The footer and the headers in the misclassified posts suggest to
                > me that they are spuriously spam-labelling our list mail.

                Google has nothing to do with the spam headers you're showing us.
                vim-use@... is an alias to vim_use@.... The vim-use
                list is a Google Group.


                > Perhaps there is so much spam out there that incredibly stupid
                > filtering, such as classifying google's own footer as spam, is worth
                > the biscuit:
                >
                > X-SpamDetect: *********: 9.055555 IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0,
                > IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, Aspam=5.1
                > X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups
                > -post +https +subscribed
                > X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
                > X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m639.msg
                >
                > While classifying a list post as spam because it contains the words
                > "because, received, and subscribed", seems in itself entirely
                > dysfunctional, it escalates to perversity when they have themselves
                > inserted the text at which they take offence. Is Google totally nuts?

                Speaking of totally nuts... My favorite example from your prior email
                was:

                > From: Ben Fritz <fritzophrenic@...>
                > ...
                > Subject: Re: ctags processing jumps to wrong tag?
                > ...
                > X-SpamDetect: **********: 10.416555 Adult word cum=0.7, [...]

                Really? Tagging the "Adult word cum"? The email contained the word "document".


                > Can our list admins fix the footer, to avoid google's landmines?

                No. This is a problem with your ISP. Just whitelist whatever address
                you need to whitelist (probably: vim_use@...). You'll get
                occasional spam emails, but Google Groups is pretty good about not
                letting much through. (But that might also be because mine's then
                filtered through Gmail's spam detection.)

                --
                Best,
                Ben

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              • Erik Christiansen
                ... The additional problem is noted, but that is not the case here. The last post on this page:
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 16, 2013
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                  On 17.02.13 15:00, John Beckett wrote:
                  > I have previously noticed that Google sometimes flags good mail
                  > as spam when large quotes from an earlier message have not been
                  > removed.

                  The additional problem is noted, but that is not the case here.
                  The last post on this page:

                  https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/vim_use/TyyDYT1toNc

                  shows that it quotes only three lines.

                  The words listed by the spam-catching software as triggers are not in
                  the submitted post. The triggers have been added by the list server,
                  which might be any of several private IPs which handled the post after
                  it arrived at gmr-mx.google.com. Their own crap is then misclassified as
                  spam, by mail-pb0-f58.google.com ([209.85.160.58]).

                  Erik

                  --
                  Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
                  and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                  - A. P. J.

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                • Erik Christiansen
                  ... It looks like political correctness of Microsoftian proportions. ... You are right. I misread the headers. It is the ISP. ... No, you re right. After
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 16, 2013
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                    On 17.02.13 01:19, Benjamin R. Haskell wrote:
                    > Speaking of totally nuts... My favorite example from your prior email was:
                    >
                    > >From: Ben Fritz <fritzophrenic@...>
                    > >...
                    > >Subject: Re: ctags processing jumps to wrong tag?
                    > >...
                    > >X-SpamDetect: **********: 10.416555 Adult word cum=0.7, [...]
                    >
                    > Really? Tagging the "Adult word cum"? The email contained the word "document".

                    It looks like political correctness of Microsoftian proportions.

                    > >Can our list admins fix the footer, to avoid google's landmines?
                    >
                    > No. This is a problem with your ISP.

                    You are right. I misread the headers. It is the ISP.

                    > whitelist whatever address you need to whitelist (probably:
                    > vim_use@...). You'll get occasional spam emails, but
                    > Google Groups is pretty good about not letting much through. (But
                    > that might also be because mine's then filtered through Gmail's spam
                    > detection.)

                    No, you're right. After having a go at the ISP over the
                    "document" BS, it'd be logical to just whitelist vim_use.

                    Erik

                    --
                    Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.
                    -- Walt Kelly

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                  • Tony Mechelynck
                    On 17/02/13 07:13, stosss wrote: [...] ... I think the latter is important. I do the same (i.e., click the Report as spam button in the Gmail webmail Trash
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 17, 2013
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                      On 17/02/13 07:13, stosss wrote:
                      [...]
                      > Something else is going on somewhere. I use gmail and I don't have any
                      > problems getting mail from this list. If Google thinks something is
                      > spam and I have set a filter so it puts the mail where I want it and
                      > not in the spam folder Google complains saying this should be spam but
                      > you have set filters to keep it out of spam. I don't get that annoying
                      > message with this list. There are a few other list that I do get it
                      > but I just ignore it. I also check my spam folder and trash folder
                      > regularly and tell Google it screwed up when it does which is not very
                      > often.
                      >
                      I think the latter is important. I do the same (i.e., click the "Report
                      as spam" button in the Gmail webmail Trash folder and the "Not Spam"
                      button in its Spam folder, as appropriate, after selecting the false
                      negative or the false positive respectively) and IIUC it "teaches" Gmail
                      what I regard as spam and as nonspam. As a result, the Gmail filters
                      associated with my account get progressively better -though never
                      perfect- and the false positives and false negatives become
                      progressively rarer -though never totally absent- as time goes on.


                      Best regards,
                      Tony.
                      --
                      "Tom Hayden is the kind of politician who gives opportunism a bad
                      name."
                      -- Gore Vidal

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