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OT: The so called "steep learning curve" of vim...

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  • meino.cramer@gmx.de
    Hi, it is often said, taht certain software has a steep learning curve . Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase... I was thinking of this phrase
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 30, 2012
      Hi,

      it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
      Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...

      I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if I had
      to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...

      I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
      of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
      for the y-axis..
      Then I would draw that "steep learning curve" as an graph
      which goes -- say -- from 0,0 to 5,30.

      And watching this graph I would read it as
      "Using vim give one a great amount of knowledge in a very short time."

      So....why so many take this as a point of critic???

      Using software which a needs a lot of time to learn
      much lesser ... that is the problem I think...!

      Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)

      Best regards,
      mcc


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    • Sven Guckes
      ... oh my... here we go again... ... it s been done: page: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/986/vim-vs-emacs-and-no-this-is-not-a-flame-war link:
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 30, 2012
        * <meino.cramer@...> [2012-09-30 15:39]:
        > it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
        > Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...

        oh my... here we go again...

        > I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if
        > I had to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...
        > I would take the time as measure for the x-axis
        > and the amount of stuff I have learned about --
        > for example -- vim as a measure for the y-axis..

        it's been done:
        page: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/986/vim-vs-emacs-and-no-this-is-not-a-flame-war
        link: http://mrozekma.com/editor-learning-curve.png

        btw - the steepness of those curves all depend on what you think
        a newbie should learn - and the time you'll give him for it. ;-)

        Sven

        --
        what you should know about vi and vim:
        (1) repeat with dot (2) number prefix
        (3) command combinations (4) filter
        (5) :g (global) and :s (substitute) commands
        (6) undo+redo (7) visual mode and operators

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      • Chris Jones
        ... Precisely... The nice thing is that the minute s/o mentions a steep learning curve in relation to Vim, I know exactly what I m dealing with and that it s
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 30, 2012
          On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 09:37:34AM EDT, meino.cramer@... wrote:

          > Hi,

          > it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
          > Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
          >
          > I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if I had
          > to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...
          >
          > I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
          > of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
          > for the y-axis..
          > Then I would draw that "steep learning curve" as an graph
          > which goes -- say -- from 0,0 to 5,30.
          >
          > And watching this graph I would read it as
          > "Using vim give one a great amount of knowledge in a very short time."

          Precisely...

          The nice thing is that the minute s/o mentions a steep learning curve in
          relation to Vim, I know exactly what I'm dealing with and that it's time
          to switch back to Vim's help files.

          > So....why so many take this as a point of critic???

          See above.. or refer to the wikipedia article.. :-)

          [..]

          CJ

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        • Tony Mechelynck
          ... A steep curve is meant to make you visualise climbing a mountainside, where every step is an arduous effort. In that respect I would say (but it is my
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 30, 2012
            On 30/09/12 15:37, meino.cramer@... wrote:
            > Hi,
            >
            > it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
            > Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
            >
            > I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if I had
            > to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...
            >
            > I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
            > of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
            > for the y-axis..
            > Then I would draw that "steep learning curve" as an graph
            > which goes -- say -- from 0,0 to 5,30.
            >
            > And watching this graph I would read it as
            > "Using vim give one a great amount of knowledge in a very short time."
            >
            > So....why so many take this as a point of critic???
            >
            > Using software which a needs a lot of time to learn
            > much lesser ... that is the problem I think...!
            >
            > Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)
            >
            > Best regards,
            > mcc
            >
            >

            A "steep" curve is meant to make you visualise climbing a mountainside,
            where every step is an arduous effort. In that respect I would say (but
            it is my private opinion) that Emacs, not Vim, has a steep learning
            curve. Try as I may, even after finding how to do a certain thing with
            Emacs, the next time I need the same command I have to look it up again.
            And again. And again.

            IOW, I'd suppose the y-axis is meant to represent the required effort,
            and the x-axis what you have learnt: if the curve is steep, you need a
            lot of effort to learn just the next single little thing.

            With Vim, my take on the matter is that the learning curve is long
            (there are many things to learn) but not steep (because the help is well
            laid out, commands are easily learnt, and don't need an extraordinarily
            big effort to remember): there is a long way to go from rank beginner to
            Vim guru, but the individual steps along the way aren't hard (or don't
            feel hard to me), especially now that the helphelp.txt helpfile (which
            didn't yet exist when I came to Vim) summarizes in one place most of the
            useful tricks to use when you get that needle-and-haystack feeling: you
            know: “the paragraph I need is out there somewhere in that wonderful but
            gigantic help; now how do I lay hands on it?” Well, even the answer to
            that question is found in the help, at a place which is easy to find.


            Best regards,
            Tony.
            --
            5 out of 4 people have trouble with fractions.

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          • Gerald Klein
            I think I got that? I myself have found that any software that does to much for you give you less choice, the more it takes to learn the better the prize at
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 30, 2012
              I think I got that? I myself have found that any software that does to much for you give you less choice, the more it takes to learn the better the prize at the end (more control).

              Yes?

              On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:37 AM, <meino.cramer@...> wrote:
              Hi,

              it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
              Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...

              I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if I had
              to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...

              I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
              of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
              for the y-axis..
              Then I would draw that "steep learning curve" as an graph
              which goes -- say -- from 0,0 to 5,30.

              And watching this graph I would read it as
              "Using vim give one a great amount of knowledge in a very short time."

              So....why so many take this as a point of critic???

              Using software which a needs a lot of time to learn
              much lesser ... that is the problem I think...!

              Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)

              Best regards,
              mcc


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              --

              Gerald Klein DBA

              ContactMe@...

              www.geraldklein.com

              geraldklein.wordpress.com

              jk@...

              708-599-0352


              Arch Awesome, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.

              Linux registered user #548580 



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            • meino.cramer@gmx.de
              ... Hi Gerald, BROTHER! yes YES YYYEEESSS! You are abolutely right! After years of computer experience I myself hate to be handled as a totally newbie by
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 30, 2012
                Gerald Klein <jk@...> [12-09-30 20:00]:
                > I think I got that? I myself have found that any software that does to much
                > for you give you less choice, the more it takes to learn the better the
                > prize at the end (more control).
                >
                > Yes?
                >
                > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:37 AM, <meino.cramer@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Hi,
                > >
                > > it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
                > > Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
                > >
                > > I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if I had
                > > to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...
                > >
                > > I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
                > > of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
                > > for the y-axis..
                > > Then I would draw that "steep learning curve" as an graph
                > > which goes -- say -- from 0,0 to 5,30.
                > >
                > > And watching this graph I would read it as
                > > "Using vim give one a great amount of knowledge in a very short time."
                > >
                > > So....why so many take this as a point of critic???
                > >
                > > Using software which a needs a lot of time to learn
                > > much lesser ... that is the problem I think...!
                > >
                > > Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)
                > >
                > > Best regards,
                > > mcc
                > >
                > >
                > > --
                > > You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                > > Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                > > For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                >
                > Gerald Klein DBA****
                >
                > ContactMe@...
                >
                > www.geraldklein.com <http://geraldklein.com/>****
                >
                > geraldklein.wordpress.com
                >
                > jk@...****
                >
                > 708-599-0352****
                >
                >
                > Arch Awesome, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.
                >
                > Linux registered user #548580
                >
                > --
                > You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                > Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                > For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php


                Hi Gerald,

                BROTHER!

                yes YES YYYEEESSS!

                You are abolutely right!

                After years of computer experience I myself hate to be handled as a
                totally newbie by certain operating system and certain software, which
                in turn claimed to be "useable by intuition".
                In this context "intuition" means "without the control of my mind".

                That said I am happy that there is software like vim which appeals to my
                mind instead to my intuition.

                w!

                Keep hacking!
                mcc







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              • Gerald Klein
                ... -- Never got pinged before for top posting (or I didn t notice it) That said, All Hail Awesome, Ranger and VIM Gerald Klein DBA****
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 30, 2012
                  On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 1:21 PM, <meino.cramer@...> wrote:
                  Gerald Klein <jk@...> [12-09-30 20:00]:
                  > I think I got that? I myself have found that any software that does to much
                  > for you give you less choice, the more it takes to learn the better the
                  > prize at the end (more control).
                  >
                  > Yes?
                  >
                  > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:37 AM, <meino.cramer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi,
                  > >
                  > > it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
                  > > Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
                  > >
                  > > I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if I had
                  > > to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...
                  > >
                  > > I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
                  > > of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
                  > > for the y-axis..
                  > > Then I would draw that "steep learning curve" as an graph
                  > > which goes -- say -- from 0,0 to 5,30.
                  > >
                  > > And watching this graph I would read it as
                  > > "Using vim give one a great amount of knowledge in a very short time."
                  > >
                  > > So....why so many take this as a point of critic???
                  > >
                  > > Using software which a needs a lot of time to learn
                  > > much lesser ... that is the problem I think...!
                  > >
                  > > Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)
                  > >
                  > > Best regards,
                  > > mcc
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                  > > Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                  > > For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  >
                  > Gerald Klein DBA****
                  >
                  > ContactMe@...
                  >
                  > www.geraldklein.com <http://geraldklein.com/>****
                  >
                  > geraldklein.wordpress.com
                  >
                  > jk@...****
                  >
                  > 708-599-0352****
                  >
                  >
                  > Arch Awesome, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.
                  >
                  > Linux registered user #548580
                  >
                  > --
                  > You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                  > Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                  > For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php


                  Hi Gerald,

                  BROTHER!

                  yes YES YYYEEESSS!

                  You are abolutely right!

                  After years of computer experience I myself hate to be handled as a
                  totally newbie by certain operating system and certain software, which
                  in turn claimed to be "useable by intuition".
                  In this context "intuition" means "without the control of my mind".

                  That said I am happy that there is software like vim which appeals to my
                  mind instead to my intuition.

                  w!

                  Keep hacking!
                  mcc







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                  -- 


                  Never got pinged before for top posting (or I didn't notice it) 


                  That said, All Hail 

                  Awesome, Ranger and VIM



                  Gerald Klein DBA

                  ContactMe@...

                  www.geraldklein.com

                  geraldklein.wordpress.com

                  jk@...

                  708-599-0352


                  Arch Awesome, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.

                  Linux registered user #548580 



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                • Tim Chase
                  ... I think the misinterpretation is that the x-axis should be labeled effort learning new stuff over time , not just time ; and the y-axis would be
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 30, 2012
                    On 09/30/12 08:37, meino.cramer@... wrote:
                    > it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
                    > Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
                    >
                    > I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
                    > of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
                    > for the y-axis..
                    >
                    > Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)

                    I think the misinterpretation is that the x-axis should be labeled
                    "effort learning new stuff over time", not just "time"; and the
                    y-axis would be "productivity".

                    A "shallow" learning curve would then mean that, with minimal
                    effort, one achieves some corresponding level of productivity.

                    With Vim, the average user that hasn't gone through basic training
                    (vimtutor, reading man pages, etc) is usually pretty lost with
                    things as basic as quitting. So the graphs would look something like

                    Nano, other "easy" editors
                    P|
                    r|
                    o|
                    d|
                    u|
                    c|
                    t| . . Maxiumum editor capability . . . . . . .************
                    i| ****************
                    v| ****************
                    i| ********
                    t| ****
                    y|*
                    =+==========================================================
                    | Effort over time --->


                    cat
                    P|
                    r|
                    o|
                    d|
                    u|
                    c|
                    t|
                    i|
                    v|
                    i| . . Maxiumum editor capability . . . . . . . . . . . . .
                    t| ****
                    y|*
                    =+==========================================================
                    | Effort over time --->



                    Vim
                    P| **
                    r| **
                    o| **
                    d| *
                    u| *
                    c| *
                    t| *
                    i| *
                    v| * <-- the infamous steep curve
                    i| *
                    t| *
                    y| ***** <-- time spent learning before you can do anything
                    -+----------------------------------------------------------
                    | Effort over time --->

                    Emacs
                    P| **
                    r| **
                    o| **
                    d| **
                    u| **
                    c| **
                    t| **
                    i| **
                    v| **
                    i| **
                    t| **
                    y|**
                    -+----------------------------------------------------------
                    | Effort over time --->


                    -tim


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                  • Tim Chase
                    ... As I pushed I remembered stumbling across[1] with rather similar graphs. -tim [1] http://www.thejach.com/view/2012/07/vims_learning_curve_is_wrong
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 30, 2012
                      On 09/30/12 15:47, Tim Chase wrote:
                      > So the graphs would look something like...

                      As I pushed <send> I remembered stumbling across[1] with rather
                      similar graphs.

                      -tim

                      [1]
                      http://www.thejach.com/view/2012/07/vims_learning_curve_is_wrong


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                    • Tony Mechelynck
                      ... [...] ... [...] How can it be infamous to suddenly become a lot more productive in no time at all? (It s possible, let s say it suddenly all clicks and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 1, 2012
                        On 30/09/12 22:47, Tim Chase wrote:
                        > On 09/30/12 08:37, meino.cramer@... wrote:
                        >> it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
                        >> Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
                        >>
                        >> I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
                        >> of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
                        >> for the y-axis..
                        >>
                        >> Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)
                        >
                        > I think the misinterpretation is that the x-axis should be labeled
                        > "effort learning new stuff over time", not just "time"; and the
                        > y-axis would be "productivity".
                        >
                        > A "shallow" learning curve would then mean that, with minimal
                        > effort, one achieves some corresponding level of productivity.
                        >
                        > With Vim, the average user that hasn't gone through basic training
                        > (vimtutor, reading man pages, etc) is usually pretty lost with
                        > things as basic as quitting. So the graphs would look something like
                        >
                        [...]
                        >
                        > Vim
                        > P| **
                        > r| **
                        > o| **
                        > d| *
                        > u| *
                        > c| *
                        > t| *
                        > i| *
                        > v| * <-- the infamous steep curve
                        > i| *
                        > t| *
                        > y| ***** <-- time spent learning before you can do anything
                        > -+----------------------------------------------------------
                        > | Effort over time --->
                        [...]

                        How can it be "infamous" to suddenly become a lot more productive in no
                        time at all? (It's possible, let's say it suddenly all "clicks" and
                        makes sense in your mind.) Or maybe it's the part before that which is
                        "infamous", where it takes some non-negligible effort before you can do
                        anything at all? But then, why call it "steep" when one pictures it as
                        flat? No matter how I look at it, there's something I don't grok.

                        I would picture it this way:

                        ^
                        | o
                        | o
                        | o
                        | o (2)
                        | o
                        | o
                        | o
                        | o
                        | ************* (1)
                        | ***************
                        | ****************
                        | ******* ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Your productivity takes off,
                        | ** / you literally start "running"
                        | ** / Learning by doing, in real conditions
                        | ** / (incl. learning-by-doing how to use the help)
                        E| * :
                        f| * :
                        f| * : Studying the vim-tutor
                        o| * : (OK, it takes some effort) (I suppose this is the so-called
                        r| * : "steep" learning curve, but puh-lease! Just studying the
                        t|* : included manual, and it would be too much?)
                        ;o----------------------------------------------------------------------->
                        ;; Productivity

                        (1) OK, I suppose there's a limit to how much you can do how fast, so
                        you stop here for a time: no additional effort, no additional productivity.
                        (2) But any time you want to study some more, or any time you put some
                        effort into combining stuff you already knew, you can increase your
                        productivity, maybe just a little at a time.

                        Best regards,
                        Tony.
                        --
                        Yes, but which self do you want to be?

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                      • Gerald Klein
                        What I think happens sometimes is that someone is perhaps is for the first time stuck with only his Linux tty and has to fix something. The only editor he has
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 1, 2012
                          What I think happens sometimes is that someone is perhaps is for the first time stuck with only his Linux tty and has to fix something. The only editor he has is vi/vim he knows how to pass a file as an argument. He opens the file and can't get it to edit or makes edits and can't close it.Swearing ensues, until he either figures it out or gives up, stating emphatically that he will never use that editor or "what the hell was that? How do people use that?" and another link in the chain is formed.

                          On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:
                          On 30/09/12 22:47, Tim Chase wrote:
                          On 09/30/12 08:37, meino.cramer@... wrote:
                          it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
                          Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...

                          I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
                          of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
                          for the y-axis..

                          Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)

                          I think the misinterpretation is that the x-axis should be labeled
                          "effort learning new stuff over time", not just "time"; and the
                          y-axis would be "productivity".

                          A "shallow" learning curve would then mean that, with minimal
                          effort, one achieves some corresponding level of productivity.

                          With Vim, the average user that hasn't gone through basic training
                          (vimtutor, reading man pages, etc) is usually pretty lost with
                          things as basic as quitting.  So the graphs would look something like

                          [...]

                                              Vim
                          P|              **
                          r|            **
                          o|          **
                          d|         *
                          u|        *
                          c|       *
                          t|      *
                          i|     *
                          v|     * <-- the infamous steep curve
                          i|     *
                          t|     *
                          y| ***** <-- time spent learning before you can do anything
                          -+----------------------------------------------------------
                            | Effort over time --->
                          [...]

                          How can it be "infamous" to suddenly become a lot more productive in no time at all? (It's possible, let's say it suddenly all "clicks" and makes sense in your mind.) Or maybe it's the part before that which is "infamous", where it takes some non-negligible effort before you can do anything at all? But then, why call it "steep" when one pictures it as flat? No matter how I look at it, there's something I don't grok.

                          I would picture it this way:

                           ^
                           |                                                                    o
                           |                                                                   o
                           |                                                                  o
                           |                                                                 o (2)
                           |                                                                o
                           |                                                               o
                           |                                                              o
                           |                                                             o
                           |                                                *************  (1)
                           |                                 ***************
                           |                 ****************
                           |          ******* ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Your productivity takes off,
                           |        ** /                   you literally start "running"
                           |      **  / Learning by doing, in real conditions
                           |    **   /  (incl. learning-by-doing how to use the help)
                          E|   * :
                          f|  *  :
                          f|  *  : Studying the vim-tutor
                          o| *   : (OK, it takes some effort) (I suppose this is the so-called
                          r| *   : "steep" learning curve, but puh-lease! Just studying the
                          t|*    : included manual, and it would be too much?)
                          ;o----------------------------------------------------------------------->
                          ;; Productivity

                          (1) OK, I suppose there's a limit to how much you can do how fast, so you stop here for a time: no additional effort, no additional productivity.
                          (2) But any time you want to study some more, or any time you put some effort into combining stuff you already knew, you can increase your productivity, maybe just a little at a time.

                          Best regards,
                          Tony.
                          --
                          Yes, but which self do you want to be?

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                          Linux registered user #548580 



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                        • ping
                          no matter what, I never understand vim & emacs part of that picture - it doesn t make much sense. I think Tony s graph make more sense in ... +----+
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 1, 2012
                            no matter what, I never understand "vim" & "emacs" part of that picture
                            - it doesn't make much sense. I think Tony's graph make more sense in
                            terms of "deep" , or , I think maybe this:


                            |
                            |
                            |productivity
                            |
                            |
                            | (VIM)
                            | |
                            | ++
                            | |
                            | ++
                            | |
                            | +-+
                            | |
                            | |
                            | |
                            | +-+
                            | |
                            | +-+
                            | |
                            | |
                            | +-+
                            | |
                            | +--+
                            |.......................................+.................(notepad)
                            | +----+
                            | +--+
                            | +-----+
                            | +-------+
                            | +------+
                            +----+ time/effort
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------->



                            On 10/01/2012 01:18 PM, Gerald Klein wrote:
                            > What I think happens sometimes is that someone is perhaps is for the
                            > first time stuck with only his Linux tty and has to fix something. The
                            > only editor he has is vi/vim he knows how to pass a file as an argument.
                            > He opens the file and can't get it to edit or makes edits and can't
                            > close it.Swearing ensues, until he either figures it out or gives up,
                            > stating emphatically that he will never use that editor or "what the
                            > hell was that? How do people use that?" and another link in the chain is
                            > formed.
                            >
                            > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Tony Mechelynck
                            > <antoine.mechelynck@... <mailto:antoine.mechelynck@...>> wrote:
                            >
                            > On 30/09/12 22:47, Tim Chase wrote:
                            >
                            > On 09/30/12 08:37, meino.cramer@...
                            > <mailto:meino.cramer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep
                            > learning curve".
                            > Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
                            >
                            > I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
                            > of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
                            > for the y-axis..
                            >
                            > Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)
                            >
                            >
                            > I think the misinterpretation is that the x-axis should be labeled
                            > "effort learning new stuff over time", not just "time"; and the
                            > y-axis would be "productivity".
                            >
                            > A "shallow" learning curve would then mean that, with minimal
                            > effort, one achieves some corresponding level of productivity.
                            >
                            > With Vim, the average user that hasn't gone through basic training
                            > (vimtutor, reading man pages, etc) is usually pretty lost with
                            > things as basic as quitting. So the graphs would look something
                            > like
                            >
                            > [...]
                            >
                            >
                            > Vim
                            > P| **
                            > r| **
                            > o| **
                            > d| *
                            > u| *
                            > c| *
                            > t| *
                            > i| *
                            > v| * <-- the infamous steep curve
                            > i| *
                            > t| *
                            > y| ***** <-- time spent learning before you can do anything
                            > -+----------------------------__------------------------------
                            > | Effort over time --->
                            >
                            > [...]
                            >
                            > How can it be "infamous" to suddenly become a lot more productive in
                            > no time at all? (It's possible, let's say it suddenly all "clicks"
                            > and makes sense in your mind.) Or maybe it's the part before that
                            > which is "infamous", where it takes some non-negligible effort
                            > before you can do anything at all? But then, why call it "steep"
                            > when one pictures it as flat? No matter how I look at it, there's
                            > something I don't grok.
                            >
                            > I would picture it this way:
                            >
                            > ^
                            > | o
                            > | o
                            > | o
                            > |
                            > o (2)
                            > | o
                            > | o
                            > | o
                            > | o
                            > | ************* (1)
                            > | ***************
                            > | ****************
                            > | ******* ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Your productivity takes off,
                            > | ** / you literally start "running"
                            > | ** / Learning by doing, in real conditions
                            > | ** / (incl. learning-by-doing how to use the help)
                            > E| * :
                            > f| * :
                            > f| * : Studying the vim-tutor
                            > o| * : (OK, it takes some effort) (I suppose this is the so-called
                            > r| * : "steep" learning curve, but puh-lease! Just studying the
                            > t|* : included manual, and it would be too much?)
                            > ;o----------------------------__------------------------------__------------->
                            > ;; Productivity
                            >
                            > (1) OK, I suppose there's a limit to how much you can do how fast,
                            > so you stop here for a time: no additional effort, no additional
                            > productivity.
                            > (2) But any time you want to study some more, or any time you put
                            > some effort into combining stuff you already knew, you can increase
                            > your productivity, maybe just a little at a time.
                            >
                            > Best regards,
                            > Tony.
                            > --
                            > Yes, but which self do you want to be?
                            >
                            > --
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                            > Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            >
                            > Gerald Klein DBA____
                            >
                            > ContactMe@... <mailto:ContactMe@...>
                            >
                            > www.geraldklein.com <http://geraldklein.com/>____
                            >
                            > geraldklein.wordpress.com <http://geraldklein.wordpress.com>
                            >
                            > jk@... <mailto:jk@...>____
                            >
                            > 708-599-0352____
                            >
                            >
                            > Arch Awesome, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.
                            >
                            > Linux registered user #548580
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Boyko Bantchev
                            In my personal opinion, saying that Vim s learning curve is steep is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim s potential users computer
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 1, 2012
                              In my personal opinion, saying that "Vim's learning curve is steep"
                              is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim's
                              potential users computer illiterates, incapable of adapting to simple
                              albeit new concepts? Highly improbable. Are they not learning to
                              use many other and much more complex computer programs and their
                              ever changing new versions?
                              I remember I moved to Vim after using for years a very different
                              family of text editors (Kedit and THE) with which I was greatly
                              efficient. Yet, it only took a very short period of time and no
                              serious effort to change my view of text editing and my work habits.
                              Steep learning curve? Oh, please ...

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                            • Tim Chase
                              ... I m pretty sure it stems on how productive one can be when confronted with the editor without any previous experience. A newbie user can approach Nano and
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 1, 2012
                                On 10/01/12 14:17, Boyko Bantchev wrote:
                                > In my personal opinion, saying that "Vim's learning curve is steep"
                                > is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim's
                                > potential users computer illiterates, incapable of adapting to simple
                                > albeit new concepts?

                                I'm pretty sure it stems on how productive one can be when
                                confronted with the editor without any previous experience.

                                A newbie user can approach Nano and see the "these are the things
                                you can do" at the bottom, as well as how to obtain help; or Notepad
                                and see that it offers the standard File/Edit/Help menu options to
                                click on. In both, typing does exactly what is expected: it enters
                                text.

                                In Vim, yes, the opening screen of a new editing session does point
                                to how to obtain help. But (1) if you invoke it on a filename (or
                                have $EDITOR or $VISUAL unset and another application uses vi(m) as
                                the default), you don't see the "here's how you get help", and (2)
                                while arrow keys in most cases, typing as one is accustomed to doing
                                in other text-editing programs (whether Notepad, Word, an email
                                client, or even just a text-entry box in a browser) doesn't have the
                                expected behavior.

                                So the "curve is steep" indicates that you have to read *some*
                                instructions before you can likely even do _anything_. Yes, vim
                                offers good tutorials like vimtutor and there are plenty of other
                                good tutorials and cheat-sheets a mere google away, but it does
                                require _some_ up-front learning.

                                -tim


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                              • Charlie Kester
                                ... But the thing is, for the kind of users vim is aimed at, a text editor isn t the kind of tool that is used so infrequently that the user is always stuck at
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 1, 2012
                                  On 10/01/2012 12:48 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
                                  > On 10/01/12 14:17, Boyko Bantchev wrote:
                                  >> In my personal opinion, saying that "Vim's learning curve is steep"
                                  >> is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim's
                                  >> potential users computer illiterates, incapable of adapting to simple
                                  >> albeit new concepts?
                                  >
                                  > I'm pretty sure it stems on how productive one can be when
                                  > confronted with the editor without any previous experience.
                                  >
                                  > A newbie user can approach Nano and see the "these are the things
                                  > you can do" at the bottom, as well as how to obtain help; or Notepad
                                  > and see that it offers the standard File/Edit/Help menu options to
                                  > click on. In both, typing does exactly what is expected: it enters
                                  > text.
                                  >

                                  But the thing is, for the kind of users vim is aimed at, a text editor
                                  isn't the kind of tool that is used so infrequently that the user is
                                  always stuck at the newbie stage.

                                  I think there's a place for "user-friendly" or "intuitively obvious"
                                  applications, but it's for things that you don't use every day and
                                  therefore don't have a chance to develop any "muscle memory" or other
                                  expertise. A disk recovery app, for example, needs that kind of
                                  interface because it's aimed at a problem that hopefully doesn't come up
                                  very often. But when it does we're already frustrated and don't want to
                                  have to learn how to use an arcane piece of software.

                                  A software developer, on the other hand, spends a large portion of his
                                  time in his text editor. It's his "home base." What Alan Cooper once
                                  called a "sovereign app." With apps like that, what's wanted is an
                                  interface that doesn't insist on calling attention to itself, but
                                  instead recedes into the background so the user can focus all of his
                                  attention on the task. Otherwise it's like trying to play the piano
                                  while looking at your hands instead of the sheetmusic (or hearing the
                                  song in your head.)

                                  People who don't work with text all that much or very often can be quite
                                  content with Nano, Notepad, or even simpler interfaces. You don't need
                                  vim to send text messages or tweets!

                                  But other people find those "user-friendly" apps too confining, and
                                  almost as awkward to use as an on-screen keyboard to be pecked at with a
                                  stylus.

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                                • Steve Litt
                                  ... This is true, but it doesn t mean that saying Vim s learning curve is steep is a gross exaggeration. The fact is, that for X amount of time, the Vim newbie
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 1, 2012
                                    On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 15:04:15 -0700, Charlie Kester said:
                                    > On 10/01/2012 12:48 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
                                    > > On 10/01/12 14:17, Boyko Bantchev wrote:
                                    > >> In my personal opinion, saying that "Vim's learning curve is steep"
                                    > >> is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim's
                                    > >> potential users computer illiterates, incapable of adapting to
                                    > >> simple albeit new concepts?
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm pretty sure it stems on how productive one can be when
                                    > > confronted with the editor without any previous experience.
                                    > >
                                    > > A newbie user can approach Nano and see the "these are the things
                                    > > you can do" at the bottom, as well as how to obtain help; or Notepad
                                    > > and see that it offers the standard File/Edit/Help menu options to
                                    > > click on. In both, typing does exactly what is expected: it enters
                                    > > text.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > But the thing is, for the kind of users vim is aimed at, a text
                                    > editor isn't the kind of tool that is used so infrequently that the
                                    > user is always stuck at the newbie stage.

                                    This is true, but it doesn't mean that saying Vim's learning curve is
                                    steep is a gross exaggeration. The fact is, that for X amount of time,
                                    the Vim newbie will be helpless with Vim. That's not true of Notepad or
                                    GEdit.

                                    >
                                    > I think there's a place for "user-friendly" or "intuitively obvious"
                                    > applications, but it's for things that you don't use every day and
                                    > therefore don't have a chance to develop any "muscle memory" or other
                                    > expertise. A disk recovery app, for example, needs that kind of
                                    > interface because it's aimed at a problem that hopefully doesn't come
                                    > up very often. But when it does we're already frustrated and don't
                                    > want to have to learn how to use an arcane piece of software.

                                    This is absolutely true, but doesn't refute Vim's steep learning curve.

                                    >
                                    > A software developer, on the other hand, spends a large portion of
                                    > his time in his text editor. It's his "home base." What Alan Cooper
                                    > once called a "sovereign app." With apps like that, what's wanted is
                                    > an interface that doesn't insist on calling attention to itself, but
                                    > instead recedes into the background so the user can focus all of his
                                    > attention on the task. Otherwise it's like trying to play the piano
                                    > while looking at your hands instead of the sheetmusic (or hearing the
                                    > song in your head.)

                                    :-) This is certainly true, but ...

                                    >
                                    > People who don't work with text all that much or very often can be
                                    > quite content with Nano, Notepad, or even simpler interfaces. You
                                    > don't need vim to send text messages or tweets!

                                    True...

                                    >
                                    > But other people find those "user-friendly" apps too confining, and
                                    > almost as awkward to use as an on-screen keyboard to be pecked at
                                    > with a stylus.

                                    True. That's exactly why we're all using Vim. Once you learn it, it's
                                    *much* easier (and faster) than "user-friendly" apps.

                                    Everything you write in this email is absolutely true, but none of it
                                    supports the poster who claimed that talk of Vim's steep learning curve
                                    is a gross exaggeration. There's going to be a certain amount of time
                                    during which a brand new Vim user is completely nonproductive in Vim,
                                    because all he's doing is learning, not using. The length of that
                                    nonproductive time depends on a lot of details, including how well and
                                    quickly one links specific keystrokes to specific tasks. Correct me if
                                    I'm wrong, but when I use Vim, my fingers do the thinking -- my head
                                    has no clue.

                                    The other thing I'd point out is that I have a feeling those who
                                    perceive Vim's learning curve the steepest might be those like me, who
                                    learned on vi, and only came to Vim after gaining proficiency on vi. In
                                    my opinion, vi has a steeper learning curve than Vim -- no blocking, no
                                    mouse, no menu, no cursor or pageup keys, no helpful tools to do
                                    something you have no idea how to do. My memories of learning vi might
                                    play a role in my opinion that Vim's learning curve is extremely steep.

                                    SteveT

                                    Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/
                                    * http://twitter.com/stevelitt
                                    Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance

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                                  • Boyko Bantchev
                                    ... How is that a fact? If one only does in Vim the kind of editing that they do in Notepad (e.g. when using Vim in easy mode), would they even notice a
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 2, 2012
                                      On 2 October 2012 03:25, Steve Litt <slitt@...> wrote:
                                      > The fact is, that for X amount of time,
                                      > the Vim newbie will be helpless with Vim. That's not true of Notepad or
                                      > GEdit.

                                      How is that a fact? If one only does in Vim the kind of "editing"
                                      that they do in Notepad (e.g. when using Vim in easy mode), would
                                      they even notice a difference?

                                      > There's going to be a certain amount of time
                                      > during which a brand new Vim user is completely nonproductive in Vim,
                                      > because all he's doing is learning, not using.

                                      To say that Vim, as a particular text editor, has a steep learning
                                      curve, would mean that there are other editors that let their users
                                      do similar things but require no or little learning. What are those
                                      editors?

                                      I strongly suspect that what is being perceived as "Vim's steepness"
                                      is in fact the difficulty of learning to edit text efficaciously and
                                      efficiently. That difficulty is not somehow specific to Vim alone,
                                      but is essential to the task it solves. I'll agree that Vim has a
                                      steep learning curve when I'm shown a text editor with similar
                                      capabilities and a 'gradual' learning curve. Until then, I consider
                                      it a myth, and one that is harmful to Vim's popularity.

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                                    • Marc Weber
                                      vim & emacs: Well - the whole discussion is pointless because we re not talking about what should be learned . Even notepad can do things Vim can t: Open
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 2, 2012
                                        vim & emacs: Well - the whole discussion is pointless because we're not
                                        talking about "what should be learned".

                                        Even notepad can do things Vim can't: Open registry dump files!

                                        So use the right tool for a job. And if you want to learn about Vim -
                                        and you're helpless - then ask somebody knowing how to find the tool, or
                                        use the website. Its not a Vim problem. Yes - at the beginning I didn't
                                        knew how to quit Vim - yet I learned it. I even was too dump to
                                        understand the press :q because ":" is often used as separator - and I
                                        only experienced the Windows world before.

                                        You all say productivity of Vim is great - well - yes after writing tons
                                        of plugins (depending on what you do) - and even then you feel limited.
                                        Or why do people start writing eclim like bridges (talking about
                                        programming).

                                        Now is Eclipse more productive than Vim?
                                        Eclipse can highlight used and unused #ifdef regions, Vim cannot
                                        (AFAIK).
                                        Thus given infinite amount of time - which tool will be more productive
                                        if your task is to understand fast which lines are actually used?

                                        So don't forget that there are also other tools - and use what it fits
                                        your needs.

                                        And if you're worried that new users fail to get started with Vim - then
                                        teach them how to use google instead of telling them where to find help.

                                        Linux users will soon learn that there is "man", Windows users are used
                                        to F1 and a Help menu - and everything exists and works.

                                        However

                                        :helpgrep mailinglist does not show anything - WHY?
                                        :helpgrep irc shows nothing (but my own documentation of my plugins! [1])
                                        :helpgrep chat (same)
                                        :h community (does not exist)
                                        :helpgrep community (one hit: on the netbeans page)

                                        But its us helping new users and giving them those hints

                                        Should we fix that?

                                        So what about adding a help file about the community containing pointers
                                        to the internet relay chat, and the mailinglist?

                                        If "productivity" was the thing you want to measure - and if you're a
                                        writer - and think "Vim is the tool I always tried to learn" - then also
                                        have a look at plover: http://plover.stenoknight.com/
                                        It may allow you to write with 200WPMs and more after some training.
                                        Maybe that's providing a bigger "productivity boost" - than all Vim
                                        knowledge.

                                        So how do you feel about the community? Should we be mentioned in the
                                        help files?

                                        How much of you (readers of this mailinglist) would have benefited
                                        knowing about this mailinglist or the #vim irc chat room earlier?

                                        Marc Weber

                                        [1]
                                        vim-addon-haskell.txt|40 col 3| irc.freenode.net: MarcWeber
                                        vim-addon-manager-additional-documentation.txt|1147 col 21| Of course #git on irc.freenode.net is willing to help if you have trouble
                                        vim-addon-manager-getting-started.txt|38 col 6| Join irc.freenode.net, /join #vim. Ask there. VAM has many users
                                        tovl.txt|145 col 16| MarcWeber on irc.freenode.org or mail: marco-oweber@...
                                        lang_haskell.txt|133 col 16| MarcWeber on irc.freenode.org or mail: marco-oweber@...

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                                      • David H. Lynch Jr.
                                        Vi is present on nearly every *nix system in existance, from big servers to whatever is in your refridgerator. It is also on OSX. Vi is essentially a subset of
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 2, 2012
                                          Vi is present on nearly every *nix system in existance, from big
                                          servers to whatever is in your refridgerator. It is also on OSX.
                                          Vi is essentially a subset of vim. If you know vim you know vi. If you
                                          constantly need to work on random systems anywhere - you are stuck
                                          knowing the basics of Vi.
                                          I think Vi without Vim is pretty bad as an editor - but I can still use
                                          it. My fingers know what to do.
                                          There is nothing else this is true of.
                                          Vim is Vi on steroids.It is the default Vi in many places, but where it
                                          isn't or windows where there is no decent text editor, Vim can easily be
                                          installed when you are going to be working for more than a few
                                          minutes.

                                          I personally do not use but a fraction of the power of Vim, I have been
                                          using it for almost a decade and I am a novice. some things are hard to
                                          learn. but the power of even my limited knowledge is enormous. Sure
                                          there are other editors that are really good. I have used and loved many
                                          others, and some were friendlier. But none were everywhere.
                                          So fine it takes a long time to get to the point where you can change
                                          the 3rd to last word in each line to uppercase, prepend the first word
                                          in the line, and append the line number in octal. But I am sure someone
                                          here can tell you how to do that.

                                          If you are going to live in eclipse and no where else - then you
                                          probably should learn eclipses built in editor.
                                          There are other editors that will be the best choice for other specific
                                          scenarios.
                                          My work dictates that I must know Vi fairly well. And Vim is available
                                          - usually the default Vi in most of the places I work.
                                          I don't care about the learning curve. I care more about the fact that
                                          there are so many other tools like email, or ... that have their own
                                          limited editing capability built in that do not work like Vim. Anyone
                                          have a vim plugin for eclipse ? ThunderBird ?













                                          On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 16:04 +0200, Marc Weber wrote:
                                          > vim & emacs: Well - the whole discussion is pointless because we're not
                                          > talking about "what should be learned".
                                          >
                                          > Even notepad can do things Vim can't: Open registry dump files!
                                          >
                                          > So use the right tool for a job. And if you want to learn about Vim -
                                          > and you're helpless - then ask somebody knowing how to find the tool, or
                                          > use the website. Its not a Vim problem. Yes - at the beginning I didn't
                                          > knew how to quit Vim - yet I learned it. I even was too dump to
                                          > understand the press :q because ":" is often used as separator - and I
                                          > only experienced the Windows world before.
                                          >
                                          > You all say productivity of Vim is great - well - yes after writing tons
                                          > of plugins (depending on what you do) - and even then you feel limited.
                                          > Or why do people start writing eclim like bridges (talking about
                                          > programming).
                                          >
                                          > Now is Eclipse more productive than Vim?
                                          > Eclipse can highlight used and unused #ifdef regions, Vim cannot
                                          > (AFAIK).
                                          > Thus given infinite amount of time - which tool will be more productive
                                          > if your task is to understand fast which lines are actually used?
                                          >
                                          > So don't forget that there are also other tools - and use what it fits
                                          > your needs.
                                          >
                                          > And if you're worried that new users fail to get started with Vim - then
                                          > teach them how to use google instead of telling them where to find help.
                                          >
                                          > Linux users will soon learn that there is "man", Windows users are used
                                          > to F1 and a Help menu - and everything exists and works.
                                          >
                                          > However
                                          >
                                          > :helpgrep mailinglist does not show anything - WHY?
                                          > :helpgrep irc shows nothing (but my own documentation of my plugins! [1])
                                          > :helpgrep chat (same)
                                          > :h community (does not exist)
                                          > :helpgrep community (one hit: on the netbeans page)
                                          >
                                          > But its us helping new users and giving them those hints
                                          >
                                          > Should we fix that?
                                          >
                                          > So what about adding a help file about the community containing pointers
                                          > to the internet relay chat, and the mailinglist?
                                          >
                                          > If "productivity" was the thing you want to measure - and if you're a
                                          > writer - and think "Vim is the tool I always tried to learn" - then also
                                          > have a look at plover: http://plover.stenoknight.com/
                                          > It may allow you to write with 200WPMs and more after some training.
                                          > Maybe that's providing a bigger "productivity boost" - than all Vim
                                          > knowledge.
                                          >
                                          > So how do you feel about the community? Should we be mentioned in the
                                          > help files?
                                          >
                                          > How much of you (readers of this mailinglist) would have benefited
                                          > knowing about this mailinglist or the #vim irc chat room earlier?
                                          >
                                          > Marc Weber
                                          >
                                          > [1]
                                          > vim-addon-haskell.txt|40 col 3| irc.freenode.net: MarcWeber
                                          > vim-addon-manager-additional-documentation.txt|1147 col 21| Of course #git on irc.freenode.net is willing to help if you have trouble
                                          > vim-addon-manager-getting-started.txt|38 col 6| Join irc.freenode.net, /join #vim. Ask there. VAM has many users
                                          > tovl.txt|145 col 16| MarcWeber on irc.freenode.org or mail: marco-oweber@...
                                          > lang_haskell.txt|133 col 16| MarcWeber on irc.freenode.org or mail: marco-oweber@...
                                          >


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                                        • Charles Campbell
                                          ... Try Michael Gedde s ifdef.vim plugin -- http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=7 . Regards, C Campbell -- You received this message from
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 2, 2012
                                            Marc Weber wrote:
                                            > <snip>
                                            > Eclipse can highlight used and unused #ifdef regions, Vim cannot
                                            > (AFAIK).
                                            >
                                            <snip>

                                            Try Michael Gedde's "ifdef.vim" plugin --
                                            http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=7 .

                                            Regards,
                                            C Campbell

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                                          • Christian Brabandt
                                            Hi Marc! ... Why can t Vim? regards, Christian -- Wenn der kluge Mann mit dem Kopf durch die Wand will, so benutzt er dazu einen anderen. -- You received this
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 2, 2012
                                              Hi Marc!

                                              On Di, 02 Okt 2012, Marc Weber wrote:

                                              > vim & emacs: Well - the whole discussion is pointless because we're not
                                              > talking about "what should be learned".
                                              >
                                              > Even notepad can do things Vim can't: Open registry dump files!

                                              Why can't Vim?

                                              regards,
                                              Christian
                                              --
                                              Wenn der kluge Mann mit dem Kopf durch die Wand will, so benutzt er dazu
                                              einen anderen.

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                                            • Marc Weber
                                              ... Hmm you re right. You could write a decode and use it (like showing hexdumps ..) - still I use bvi whenever I want to edit binary files. Try Win + R -
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 2, 2012
                                                Excerpts from Christian Brabandt's message of Tue Oct 02 21:29:28 +0200 2012:
                                                > > Even notepad can do things Vim can't: Open registry dump files!
                                                > Why can't Vim?
                                                Hmm you're right. You could write a decode and use it (like showing
                                                hexdumps ..) - still I use bvi whenever I want to edit binary files.

                                                Try Win + R -> "regedit" click on any folder -> File export -> save as
                                                .reg file. Then you have a binary format which you can open in Vim but
                                                which is unreadable for humans. Notepad decodes it.

                                                I hope nobody got me wrong - I love Vim - and almost all the time half
                                                of my processes are running Vim instances .. Still there is a point when
                                                you hit a "frontier" - when tools are missing.

                                                Eg I like the WYSIWYG behaviour of lyx which Vim will never provide
                                                (unless a lot of development takes place)
                                                which is why I want to say: think about learning curves as much as you
                                                want - but don't miss domain specific solutions beside Vim if
                                                appropriate.

                                                Marc Weber

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                                              • John Beckett
                                                ... On Windows (or most systems for that matter), your vimrc should probably start with the following two lines: set nocompatible set encoding=utf-8 And, there
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Oct 2, 2012
                                                  Marc Weber wrote:
                                                  > Try Win + R -> "regedit" click on any folder -> File export
                                                  > -> save as .reg file. Then you have a binary format which you
                                                  > can open in Vim but which is unreadable for humans. Notepad
                                                  > decodes it.

                                                  On Windows (or most systems for that matter), your vimrc should
                                                  probably start with the following two lines:

                                                  set nocompatible
                                                  set encoding=utf-8

                                                  And, there should be nothing which sets fenc or fencs
                                                  (the 'fileencoding' and 'fileencodings' options).

                                                  You might have something to set fencs, but the defaults have
                                                  been sufficient for my modest needs.

                                                  With the above, Vim can correctly read a .reg file. After the
                                                  file is open, the following command shows that the .reg file
                                                  has file encoding utf-16le:

                                                  :set fenc?

                                                  John

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                                                • richard emberson
                                                  Both Vim and GVim have menubars with menus and submenus and, in addition, a popup menu that, at least for a very beginner, covers (maybe) 90% of what they may
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Oct 2, 2012
                                                    Both Vim and GVim have menubars with menus and submenus and, in
                                                    addition, a popup menu that, at least for a very beginner, covers
                                                    (maybe) 90% of what they may want to do (once they've got
                                                    basic modal editing down).
                                                    Though, it is also true that they will quickly out grow the
                                                    menus and rapidly want to do something that requires a little
                                                    deeper knowledge.

                                                    Richard

                                                    On 09/30/2012 06:37 AM, meino.cramer@... wrote:
                                                    > Hi,
                                                    >
                                                    > it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
                                                    > Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
                                                    >
                                                    > I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if I had
                                                    > to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...
                                                    >
                                                    > I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
                                                    > of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
                                                    > for the y-axis..
                                                    > Then I would draw that "steep learning curve" as an graph
                                                    > which goes -- say -- from 0,0 to 5,30.
                                                    >
                                                    > And watching this graph I would read it as
                                                    > "Using vim give one a great amount of knowledge in a very short time."
                                                    >
                                                    > So....why so many take this as a point of critic???
                                                    >
                                                    > Using software which a needs a lot of time to learn
                                                    > much lesser ... that is the problem I think...!
                                                    >
                                                    > Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)
                                                    >
                                                    > Best regards,
                                                    > mcc
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    --
                                                    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

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                                                  • Marc Weber
                                                    ... sorry - the binary output only happens if you export HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT this way. I m going to stop participating in this thread for now. Marc Weber -- You
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Oct 3, 2012
                                                      > > can open in Vim but which is unreadable for humans. Notepad
                                                      > > decodes it.
                                                      sorry - the binary output only happens if you export HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT
                                                      this way.

                                                      I'm going to stop participating in this thread for now.

                                                      Marc Weber

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