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Re: Vim manual

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  • Bram Moolenaar
    ... Someone could publish it on www.lulu.com (or another on-demand printing site). -- GALAHAD: No look, really, this isn t nescess ... PIGLET: We must examine
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 2, 2012
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      Phil Dobbin wrote:

      > I downloaded a jolly good pdf of the Vim :help manual:
      >
      > <http://www.eandem.co.uk/mrw/vim/usr_doc/index.html>
      >
      > the other day & the thought struck me that, to my knowledge, no hardcopy
      > of same is in existence.
      >
      > Has this idea ever been mooted? In my opinion, it would be excellent to
      > have the reference manual on my desk & it would have the added benefit
      > that some of the proceeds of the sale could be used towards the ICCF
      > Holland foundation too.
      >
      > The recent thread about reading the help pages in tabs & so forth
      > highlighted the need for one to me & there is certain documentation that
      > always merits being committed to paper.
      >
      > Just a thought.

      Someone could publish it on www.lulu.com (or another on-demand printing
      site).

      --
      GALAHAD: No look, really, this isn't nescess ...
      PIGLET: We must examine you.
      GALAHAD: There's nothing wrong with ... that.
      "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD

      /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
      /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
      \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
      \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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    • Sujith Abraham
      In this respect Emacs wins. They have a much more beautifully rendered PDF manual. In comparison, vim manual in PDF look amateurish.
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 5, 2012
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        In this respect Emacs wins. They have a much more beautifully rendered PDF manual. In comparison, vim manual in PDF look amateurish.

        http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/emacs.pdf

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      • Boyko Bantchev
        ... The Emacs manual is written as a book and typeset with TeX (TexInfo). Vim manual is just an aggregation of the help files -- no wonder it isn t a
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 5, 2012
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          On 5 April 2012 22:17, Sujith Abraham <milkyway8754@...> wrote:
          > In this respect Emacs wins. They have a much more beautifully rendered PDF manual. In comparison, vim manual in PDF look amateurish.

          The Emacs manual is written as a book and typeset with TeX (TexInfo).
          Vim manual is just an aggregation of the help files -- no wonder it
          isn't a masterpiece of the typesetting craft. But Vim manual is also
          about three times shorter, which is an excellent advantage. Let
          alone Vim is the much better editor :)

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        • Phil Dobbin
          ... Hash: SHA1 ... When I posted my query as to why there was no existing hardcopy manual & Bram responded with a link to lulu.com, I looked at the site & it
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 5, 2012
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            On 05/04/2012 21:14, Boyko Bantchev wrote:

            > On 5 April 2012 22:17, Sujith Abraham <milkyway8754@...> wrote:
            >> In this respect Emacs wins. They have a much more beautifully rendered PDF manual. In comparison, vim manual in PDF look amateurish.
            >
            > The Emacs manual is written as a book and typeset with TeX (TexInfo).
            > Vim manual is just an aggregation of the help files -- no wonder it
            > isn't a masterpiece of the typesetting craft. But Vim manual is also
            > about three times shorter, which is an excellent advantage. Let
            > alone Vim is the much better editor :)

            When I posted my query as to why there was no existing hardcopy manual &
            Bram responded with a link to lulu.com, I looked at the site & it seems
            to be a viable option to get the book printed.

            There doesn't seem to have been much of a positive response however to
            the idea in general so taking that into account if the vim list is
            ambivalent towards it, I'm not so sure it'll pan out with anyone else.

            It wouldn't take an Everest type effort to typeset it to a degree (Lulu
            accept pdf files) & it should, of course, look as well set as possible.

            I noticed the Pragmatic Programmers series of books are releasing a Vim
            book in beta form on the 18th of this month which I think will do well &
            judging from the burgeoning social networking circles (twitter, gklist,
            etc) a great many programmers in what was used to be called Web 2 are
            using Vim/gVim/MacVim.

            As for emacs, I just tried it for the first time. Gave up at `C-u 8 C-v` :-)

            Cheers,

            Phil...

            - --
            But masters, remember that I am an ass.
            Though it be not written down,
            yet forget not that I am an ass.

            Wm. Shakespeare - Much Ado About Nothing


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          • Andre Majorel
            ... A straight conversion to PostScript of the help files would not be very difficult but it wouldn t be very good either. I ve written a hack that darkens the
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 10, 2012
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              On 2012-04-05 22:32 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:

              > There doesn't seem to have been much of a positive response however to
              > the idea in general so taking that into account if the vim list is
              > ambivalent towards it, I'm not so sure it'll pan out with anyone else.
              >
              > It wouldn't take an Everest type effort to typeset it to a degree (Lulu
              > accept pdf files) & it should, of course, look as well set as possible.

              A straight conversion to PostScript of the help files would not
              be very difficult but it wouldn't be very good either.

              I've written a hack that darkens the colours and replaces the
              default font by something less rotten than courier (my beef is
              not with the fixed spacing, it is with that particular font).

              psbind -2 to print 2-up (4 pages per sheet).

              To do : a form-feed per chapter, global page numbering and
              everything else I'm forgetting. Maybe a page number after each
              link but that would mean reflowing.

              The manual is not very useful without the reference, IMO.

              --
              André Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
              Subliminal message : Vim needs arbitrary tab stops.

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            • Phil Dobbin
              ... Hash: SHA1 ... I ve also been looking at Pandoc (been pretty busy of late so haven t had much time). I m still very keen on the idea however so if you want
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 10, 2012
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                On 10/04/2012 16:59, Andre Majorel wrote:

                > On 2012-04-05 22:32 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:
                >
                >> There doesn't seem to have been much of a positive response however to
                >> the idea in general so taking that into account if the vim list is
                >> ambivalent towards it, I'm not so sure it'll pan out with anyone else.
                >>
                >> It wouldn't take an Everest type effort to typeset it to a degree (Lulu
                >> accept pdf files) & it should, of course, look as well set as possible.
                >
                > A straight conversion to PostScript of the help files would not
                > be very difficult but it wouldn't be very good either.
                >
                > I've written a hack that darkens the colours and replaces the
                > default font by something less rotten than courier (my beef is
                > not with the fixed spacing, it is with that particular font).
                >
                > psbind -2 to print 2-up (4 pages per sheet).
                >
                > To do : a form-feed per chapter, global page numbering and
                > everything else I'm forgetting. Maybe a page number after each
                > link but that would mean reflowing.
                >
                > The manual is not very useful without the reference, IMO.
                >

                I've also been looking at Pandoc (been pretty busy of late so haven't
                had much time).

                I'm still very keen on the idea however so if you want maybe we can pool
                resources (along with anybody else of course)?

                Cheers,

                Phil...

                - --
                But masters, remember that I am an ass.
                Though it be not written down,
                yet forget not that I am an ass.

                Wm. Shakespeare - Much Ado About Nothing


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              • shawn wilson
                I think beautifying vimdoc would be a good thing (though I don t really dig the dead tree version). I think maybe even expanding it so that it s more book like
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 10, 2012
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                  I think beautifying vimdoc would be a good thing (though I don't really dig the dead tree version). I think maybe even expanding it so that it's more book like (maybe with examples from the list / web) might even be a good thing.

                  I think a starting point would be to decide on a document format (tex probably?) and a conversion process so that the book is easily updated with the upstream? ... and a git for this to live (someone's github probably).

                  I worry about the process of design by committee though... if I have a pull request where I use some font, who decides if its good or not?

                  On Apr 10, 2012 12:36 PM, "Phil Dobbin" <phildobbin@...> wrote:
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                  On 10/04/2012 16:59, Andre Majorel wrote:

                  > On 2012-04-05 22:32 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:
                  >
                  >> There doesn't seem to have been much of a positive response however to
                  >> the idea in general so taking that into account if the vim list is
                  >> ambivalent towards it, I'm not so sure it'll pan out with anyone else.
                  >>
                  >> It wouldn't take an Everest type effort to typeset it to a degree (Lulu
                  >> accept pdf files) & it should, of course, look as well set as possible.
                  >
                  > A straight conversion to PostScript of the help files would not
                  > be very difficult but it wouldn't be very good either.
                  >
                  > I've written a hack that darkens the colours and replaces the
                  > default font by something less rotten than courier (my beef is
                  > not with the fixed spacing, it is with that particular font).
                  >
                  > psbind -2 to print 2-up (4 pages per sheet).
                  >
                  > To do : a form-feed per chapter, global page numbering and
                  > everything else I'm forgetting. Maybe a page number after each
                  > link but that would mean reflowing.
                  >
                  > The manual is not very useful without the reference, IMO.
                  >

                  I've also been looking at Pandoc (been pretty busy of late so haven't
                  had much time).

                  I'm still very keen on the idea however so if you want maybe we can pool
                  resources (along with anybody else of course)?

                  Cheers,

                   Phil...

                  - --
                  But masters, remember that I am an ass.
                  Though it be not written down,
                  yet forget not that I am an ass.

                         Wm. Shakespeare - Much Ado About Nothing


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                • Phil Dobbin
                  ... Hash: SHA1 ... I have four github accounts so that s no problem. One is actually unused with a name that is non-specific to me. If it was to be made into a
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 10, 2012
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                    On 10/04/2012 18:12, shawn wilson wrote:

                    > I think beautifying vimdoc would be a good thing (though I don't really
                    > dig the dead tree version). I think maybe even expanding it so that it's
                    > more book like (maybe with examples from the list / web) might even be a
                    > good thing.
                    >
                    > I think a starting point would be to decide on a document format (tex
                    > probably?) and a conversion process so that the book is easily updated
                    > with the upstream? ... and a git for this to live (someone's github
                    > probably).
                    >
                    > I worry about the process of design by committee though... if I have a
                    > pull request where I use some font, who decides if its good or not?

                    I have four github accounts so that's no problem. One is actually unused
                    with a name that is non-specific to me. If it was to be made into a
                    Vimdoc repo & named as such specific to say this list, it could be extra
                    work handling pull requests although I think that that may be a good
                    thing as that would help with the adding of examples & such if that idea
                    was decided upon & better in general for the building of the book.

                    I think the design by committee wouldn't be a problem. Input is good,
                    natural & healthy & I think Bram should be the final arbiter after all.

                    Putting the documents (manual & reference) into tex I think is the best
                    way to go & will result in a much better looking final PDF from which to
                    print.

                    Cheers,

                    Phil...

                    > On Apr 10, 2012 12:36 PM, "Phil Dobbin" <phildobbin@...
                    > <mailto:phildobbin@...>> wrote:
                    >
                    > On 10/04/2012 16:59, Andre Majorel wrote:
                    >
                    >> On 2012-04-05 22:32 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:
                    >
                    >>> There doesn't seem to have been much of a positive response
                    > however to
                    >>> the idea in general so taking that into account if the vim list is
                    >>> ambivalent towards it, I'm not so sure it'll pan out with anyone
                    > else.
                    >>>
                    >>> It wouldn't take an Everest type effort to typeset it to a degree
                    > (Lulu
                    >>> accept pdf files) & it should, of course, look as well set as
                    > possible.
                    >
                    >> A straight conversion to PostScript of the help files would not
                    >> be very difficult but it wouldn't be very good either.
                    >
                    >> I've written a hack that darkens the colours and replaces the
                    >> default font by something less rotten than courier (my beef is
                    >> not with the fixed spacing, it is with that particular font).
                    >
                    >> psbind -2 to print 2-up (4 pages per sheet).
                    >
                    >> To do : a form-feed per chapter, global page numbering and
                    >> everything else I'm forgetting. Maybe a page number after each
                    >> link but that would mean reflowing.
                    >
                    >> The manual is not very useful without the reference, IMO.
                    >
                    >
                    > I've also been looking at Pandoc (been pretty busy of late so haven't
                    > had much time).
                    >
                    > I'm still very keen on the idea however so if you want maybe we can pool
                    > resources (along with anybody else of course)?
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                  • Andre Majorel
                    ... Sure. Here s what I have : http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/vimpspp/ -- André Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/ Subliminal message : Vim needs
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 10, 2012
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                      On 2012-04-10 17:36 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:

                      > I'm still very keen on the idea however so if you want maybe we can pool
                      > resources (along with anybody else of course)?

                      Sure. Here's what I have :

                      http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/vimpspp/

                      --
                      André Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
                      Subliminal message : Vim needs arbitrary tab stops.

                      --
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                    • shawn wilson
                      ... is that what was used to create this: http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/ -- You received this message from the vim_use maillist. Do not top-post! Type your
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 10, 2012
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                        On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 16:30, Andre Majorel <aym-miv@...> wrote:

                        > Sure. Here's what I have :
                        >
                        >  http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/vimpspp/
                        >

                        is that what was used to create this: http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/

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                      • Andre Majorel
                        ... What do you have in mind ? If you just put all the text in a giant monospace verbatim, it won t be much better (or worse) that the output of vimpspp. Page
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 10, 2012
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                          On 2012-04-10 18:37 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:

                          > Putting the documents (manual & reference) into tex I think is the best
                          > way to go & will result in a much better looking final PDF from which to
                          > print.

                          What do you have in mind ?

                          If you just put all the text in a giant monospace verbatim, it
                          won't be much better (or worse) that the output of vimpspp. Page
                          breaks and page numbering may be easier, though.

                          If you intend to reflow the text, there is much to gain. But
                          then you need to know what is, in HTML parlance, <pre>, what is
                          <code> and what is neither. Dunno how easy/hard that is.

                          In any case, it's essential that the process be as automated as
                          possible. EG, program reads /usr/share/vim/vim*/doc/ and spits
                          out {man,ref}.ps. Otherwise, the files will always lag behind.

                          --
                          André Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
                          Subliminal message : Vim needs arbitrary tab stops.

                          --
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                        • Andre Majorel
                          ... No. Those are typeset in Courier. -- André Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/ Subliminal message : Vim needs arbitrary tab stops. -- You received
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 11, 2012
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                            On 2012-04-10 16:54 -0400, shawn wilson wrote:
                            > On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 16:30, Andre Majorel <aym-miv@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >  http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/vimpspp/
                            >
                            > is that what was used to create this: http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/

                            No. Those are typeset in Courier.

                            --
                            André Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
                            Subliminal message : Vim needs arbitrary tab stops.

                            --
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                            Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
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                          • Phil Dobbin
                            ... Hash: SHA1 ... Well, I have this crazy idea of taking the plain text files, flowing them into markdown, then converting them into tex to be typeset & then
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 11, 2012
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                              On 10/04/2012 22:01, Andre Majorel wrote:

                              > On 2012-04-10 18:37 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:
                              >
                              >> Putting the documents (manual & reference) into tex I think is
                              >> the best way to go & will result in a much better looking final
                              >> PDF from which to print.
                              >
                              > What do you have in mind ?
                              >
                              > If you just put all the text in a giant monospace verbatim, it
                              > won't be much better (or worse) that the output of vimpspp. Page
                              > breaks and page numbering may be easier, though.
                              >
                              > If you intend to reflow the text, there is much to gain. But then
                              > you need to know what is, in HTML parlance, <pre>, what is <code>
                              > and what is neither. Dunno how easy/hard that is.
                              >
                              > In any case, it's essential that the process be as automated as
                              > possible. EG, program reads /usr/share/vim/vim*/doc/ and spits out
                              > {man,ref}.ps. Otherwise, the files will always lag behind.


                              Well, I have this crazy idea of taking the plain text files, flowing
                              them into markdown, then converting them into tex to be typeset & then
                              generating a PDF ready for print.

                              All perfectly possible using Pandoc, Vim & Lulu, just a question of
                              how viable it is.

                              Any thoughts appreciated.

                              Cheers,

                              Phil...

                              - --
                              But masters, remember that I am an ass.
                              Though it be not written down,
                              yet forget not that I am an ass.

                              Wm. Shakespeare - Much Ado About Nothing


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                            • Paul Isambert
                              ... If you re willing to use the latest engine LuaTeX instead of TeX, I have written a package called Interpreter whose job is to translate input files on the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 11, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Phil Dobbin <phildobbin@...> a écrit:
                                >
                                > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                                > Hash: SHA1
                                >
                                > On 10/04/2012 22:01, Andre Majorel wrote:
                                >
                                > > On 2012-04-10 18:37 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:
                                > >
                                > >> Putting the documents (manual & reference) into tex I think is
                                > >> the best way to go & will result in a much better looking final
                                > >> PDF from which to print.
                                > >
                                > > What do you have in mind ?
                                > >
                                > > If you just put all the text in a giant monospace verbatim, it
                                > > won't be much better (or worse) that the output of vimpspp. Page
                                > > breaks and page numbering may be easier, though.
                                > >
                                > > If you intend to reflow the text, there is much to gain. But then
                                > > you need to know what is, in HTML parlance, <pre>, what is <code>
                                > > and what is neither. Dunno how easy/hard that is.
                                > >
                                > > In any case, it's essential that the process be as automated as
                                > > possible. EG, program reads /usr/share/vim/vim*/doc/ and spits out
                                > > {man,ref}.ps. Otherwise, the files will always lag behind.
                                >
                                >
                                > Well, I have this crazy idea of taking the plain text files, flowing
                                > them into markdown, then converting them into tex to be typeset & then
                                > generating a PDF ready for print.
                                >
                                > All perfectly possible using Pandoc, Vim & Lulu, just a question of
                                > how viable it is.
                                >
                                > Any thoughts appreciated.

                                If you're willing to use the latest engine LuaTeX instead of TeX, I
                                have written a package called Interpreter whose job is to translate
                                input files on the fly before TeX reads them (but during the TeX
                                compilation, it is not a preprocessor, LuaTeX lets you do that). The
                                obvious application (and actually, my motivation) is to be able to write
                                source files without TeX's \commands and \what{ever} (I haven't used
                                those for quite some time now); feeding the Vim's manual directly to TeX
                                that way is something I'd been thinking about, but never done. The
                                problem I fear is that the syntax isn't unambiguous, but it'd be worth
                                giving it a try.

                                Best,
                                Paul

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                              • Phil Dobbin
                                ... Hash: SHA1 ... Hi, Paul. Yes, I d be very interested in trying that. I have LuaTex installed alongside Tex & texlive on both my production & development
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 12, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                                  Hash: SHA1

                                  On 12/04/2012 06:17, Paul Isambert wrote:

                                  > Phil Dobbin <phildobbin@...> a écrit:

                                  >> On 10/04/2012 22:01, Andre Majorel wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >>> On 2012-04-10 18:37 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:
                                  >>>
                                  >>>> Putting the documents (manual & reference) into tex I think
                                  >>>> is the best way to go & will result in a much better looking
                                  >>>> final PDF from which to print.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> What do you have in mind ?
                                  >>>
                                  >>> If you just put all the text in a giant monospace verbatim, it
                                  >>> won't be much better (or worse) that the output of vimpspp.
                                  >>> Page breaks and page numbering may be easier, though.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> If you intend to reflow the text, there is much to gain. But
                                  >>> then you need to know what is, in HTML parlance, <pre>, what is
                                  >>> <code> and what is neither. Dunno how easy/hard that is.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> In any case, it's essential that the process be as automated as
                                  >>> possible. EG, program reads /usr/share/vim/vim*/doc/ and spits
                                  >>> out {man,ref}.ps. Otherwise, the files will always lag behind.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Well, I have this crazy idea of taking the plain text files,
                                  >> flowing them into markdown, then converting them into tex to be
                                  >> typeset & then generating a PDF ready for print.
                                  >>
                                  >> All perfectly possible using Pandoc, Vim & Lulu, just a question
                                  >> of how viable it is.
                                  >>
                                  >> Any thoughts appreciated.
                                  >
                                  > If you're willing to use the latest engine LuaTeX instead of TeX,
                                  > I have written a package called Interpreter whose job is to
                                  > translate input files on the fly before TeX reads them (but during
                                  > the TeX compilation, it is not a preprocessor, LuaTeX lets you do
                                  > that). The obvious application (and actually, my motivation) is to
                                  > be able to write source files without TeX's \commands and
                                  > \what{ever} (I haven't used those for quite some time now); feeding
                                  > the Vim's manual directly to TeX that way is something I'd been
                                  > thinking about, but never done. The problem I fear is that the
                                  > syntax isn't unambiguous, but it'd be worth giving it a try.


                                  Hi, Paul.

                                  Yes, I'd be very interested in trying that. I have LuaTex installed
                                  alongside Tex & texlive on both my production & development boxes
                                  (Debian for Prod, OS X for devel).

                                  I don't know everybody else's opinions on the subject but we could
                                  set-up a GitHub repository maybe to try the ideas out. I'm amenable to
                                  any suggestions.

                                  Let me know what you think.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Phil...

                                  - --
                                  But masters, remember that I am an ass.
                                  Though it be not written down,
                                  yet forget not that I am an ass.

                                  Wm. Shakespeare - Much Ado About Nothing
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                                • Paul Isambert
                                  ... For the GitHub repository, I have absolutely no experience in that, so I have no idea either. Otherwise, if we re going to use Interpreter, then the first
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 12, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Phil Dobbin <phildobbin@...> a écrit:
                                    >
                                    > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                                    > Hash: SHA1
                                    >
                                    > On 12/04/2012 06:17, Paul Isambert wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Phil Dobbin <phildobbin@...> a écrit:
                                    >
                                    > >> On 10/04/2012 22:01, Andre Majorel wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >>> On 2012-04-10 18:37 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>> Putting the documents (manual & reference) into tex I think
                                    > >>>> is the best way to go & will result in a much better looking
                                    > >>>> final PDF from which to print.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> What do you have in mind ?
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> If you just put all the text in a giant monospace verbatim, it
                                    > >>> won't be much better (or worse) that the output of vimpspp.
                                    > >>> Page breaks and page numbering may be easier, though.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> If you intend to reflow the text, there is much to gain. But
                                    > >>> then you need to know what is, in HTML parlance, <pre>, what is
                                    > >>> <code> and what is neither. Dunno how easy/hard that is.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> In any case, it's essential that the process be as automated as
                                    > >>> possible. EG, program reads /usr/share/vim/vim*/doc/ and spits
                                    > >>> out {man,ref}.ps. Otherwise, the files will always lag behind.
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Well, I have this crazy idea of taking the plain text files,
                                    > >> flowing them into markdown, then converting them into tex to be
                                    > >> typeset & then generating a PDF ready for print.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> All perfectly possible using Pandoc, Vim & Lulu, just a question
                                    > >> of how viable it is.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Any thoughts appreciated.
                                    > >
                                    > > If you're willing to use the latest engine LuaTeX instead of TeX,
                                    > > I have written a package called Interpreter whose job is to
                                    > > translate input files on the fly before TeX reads them (but during
                                    > > the TeX compilation, it is not a preprocessor, LuaTeX lets you do
                                    > > that). The obvious application (and actually, my motivation) is to
                                    > > be able to write source files without TeX's \commands and
                                    > > \what{ever} (I haven't used those for quite some time now); feeding
                                    > > the Vim's manual directly to TeX that way is something I'd been
                                    > > thinking about, but never done. The problem I fear is that the
                                    > > syntax isn't unambiguous, but it'd be worth giving it a try.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi, Paul.
                                    >
                                    > Yes, I'd be very interested in trying that. I have LuaTex installed
                                    > alongside Tex & texlive on both my production & development boxes
                                    > (Debian for Prod, OS X for devel).
                                    >
                                    > I don't know everybody else's opinions on the subject but we could
                                    > set-up a GitHub repository maybe to try the ideas out. I'm amenable to
                                    > any suggestions.
                                    >
                                    > Let me know what you think.

                                    For the GitHub repository, I have absolutely no experience in that, so I
                                    have no idea either. Otherwise, if we're going to use Interpreter, then
                                    the first step would be a description of the syntax of the Vim manual,
                                    so that I can start writing an ``interpretation file'' (which gives the
                                    translation between the input and the TeX output) as required by the
                                    package.

                                    Best,
                                    Paul

                                    --
                                    You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                    Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                                    For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                                  • Phil Dobbin
                                    ... Hash: SHA1 ... - From the Wikipedia entry for GitHub: Git is a version control tool. Github is a web-based hosting service for projects that use the Git
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 13, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                                      Hash: SHA1

                                      On 13/04/2012 06:56, Paul Isambert wrote:

                                      >> On 12/04/2012 06:17, Paul Isambert wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> Phil Dobbin <phildobbin@...> a écrit:
                                      >>
                                      >>>> On 10/04/2012 22:01, Andre Majorel wrote:
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>> On 2012-04-10 18:37 +0100, Phil Dobbin wrote:
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>> Putting the documents (manual & reference) into tex I think
                                      >>>>>> is the best way to go & will result in a much better looking
                                      >>>>>> final PDF from which to print.
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> What do you have in mind ?
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> If you just put all the text in a giant monospace verbatim, it
                                      >>>>> won't be much better (or worse) that the output of vimpspp.
                                      >>>>> Page breaks and page numbering may be easier, though.
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> If you intend to reflow the text, there is much to gain. But
                                      >>>>> then you need to know what is, in HTML parlance, <pre>, what is
                                      >>>>> <code> and what is neither. Dunno how easy/hard that is.
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> In any case, it's essential that the process be as automated as
                                      >>>>> possible. EG, program reads /usr/share/vim/vim*/doc/ and spits
                                      >>>>> out {man,ref}.ps. Otherwise, the files will always lag behind.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Well, I have this crazy idea of taking the plain text files,
                                      >>>> flowing them into markdown, then converting them into tex to be
                                      >>>> typeset & then generating a PDF ready for print.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> All perfectly possible using Pandoc, Vim & Lulu, just a question
                                      >>>> of how viable it is.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Any thoughts appreciated.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> If you're willing to use the latest engine LuaTeX instead of TeX,
                                      >>> I have written a package called Interpreter whose job is to
                                      >>> translate input files on the fly before TeX reads them (but during
                                      >>> the TeX compilation, it is not a preprocessor, LuaTeX lets you do
                                      >>> that). The obvious application (and actually, my motivation) is to
                                      >>> be able to write source files without TeX's \commands and
                                      >>> \what{ever} (I haven't used those for quite some time now); feeding
                                      >>> the Vim's manual directly to TeX that way is something I'd been
                                      >>> thinking about, but never done. The problem I fear is that the
                                      >>> syntax isn't unambiguous, but it'd be worth giving it a try.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Hi, Paul.
                                      >>
                                      >> Yes, I'd be very interested in trying that. I have LuaTex installed
                                      >> alongside Tex & texlive on both my production & development boxes
                                      >> (Debian for Prod, OS X for devel).
                                      >>
                                      >> I don't know everybody else's opinions on the subject but we could
                                      >> set-up a GitHub repository maybe to try the ideas out. I'm amenable to
                                      >> any suggestions.
                                      >>
                                      >> Let me know what you think.
                                      >
                                      > For the GitHub repository, I have absolutely no experience in that, so I
                                      > have no idea either. Otherwise, if we're going to use Interpreter, then
                                      > the first step would be a description of the syntax of the Vim manual,
                                      > so that I can start writing an ``interpretation file'' (which gives the
                                      > translation between the input and the TeX output) as required by the
                                      > package.

                                      - From the Wikipedia entry for GitHub:

                                      'Git is a version control tool. Github is a "web-based hosting service
                                      for projects that use the Git revision control system"'.

                                      It has many similarities to SourceForge & similar operations. It's
                                      greatest benefit is that not only can you check in your code to version
                                      control but you can then have a mirror of your local repository at
                                      GitHub so that other collaborators on a project can also "pull" code &
                                      "push" code to the project thereby obviating the need to send emails
                                      with attachments back & forth & so on.

                                      There are two types of repo available: free which read & write enabled
                                      for everybody but in order to make changes to the repo they have to send
                                      a pull request to its owners or paid which is read only but pull
                                      requests can still be sent.

                                      Either way virtually all repos on GitHub can be obtained by using "git
                                      clone".

                                      Git itself is very to install (they do packages that are binaries if you
                                      so wish) & it is available from most all package managers/distros.

                                      As for a description of the syntax, do you mean as in a SOL (Simple
                                      Object Language) description or something along those lines?

                                      Cheers,

                                      Phil...

                                      - --
                                      But masters, remember that I am an ass.
                                      Though it be not written down,
                                      yet forget not that I am an ass.

                                      Wm. Shakespeare - Much Ado About Nothing


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                                    • howardb21
                                      ... I ve had limited experience with LaTex in the past, but wonder if anyone thinks it might be a good idea to use Groff (version of troff), to format the
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Apr 14, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Apr 10, 10:12 am, shawn wilson <ag4ve...@...> wrote:

                                        > I think a starting point would be to decide on a document format (tex
                                        > probably?) and a conversion process so that the book is easily updated with
                                        > the upstream? ... and a git for this to live (someone's github probably).

                                        I've had limited experience with LaTex in the past, but wonder if
                                        anyone thinks it might be a good idea to use Groff (version of troff),
                                        to format the manual? I've been working with it because of a client,
                                        Redhat and other Unix distributions now includes it, it allows
                                        automatic generation of a table of contents and index with hyperlinks
                                        (in html), by using section headings, it is simpler than html by far
                                        to maintain, and grpff provides conversion to postscript, pdf, or
                                        html. LaTex probably provides similar things, but troff is a bit more
                                        prevalent in default unix installations.

                                        Content wise, a good (somehow hyperlinked) index would increase the
                                        manual's usability a whole lot. But that usually takes a lot of hard
                                        work by real people - no easy automated solutions.

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