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Re: Can't write to ntfs file system

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  • Marty Fried
    ... Vim can definitely edit files on an NTFS partition - I do it, and rechecked. Maybe there is still something to do with the owner, that only Vim cares
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 2, 2012
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      On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...> wrote:
      Sorry, should have been more emphatic, I have the ntfs-3g driver.  Vim
      is the *only* app that has a problem writing to this device, all
      others do so freely.  I have to keep windows to run my printer and tv,
      but virtually all the files on this ntfs drive are created in linux.

      Sorry, I didn't really know what ntfs-3g meant at the time.

      Vim can definitely edit files on an NTFS partition - I do it, and rechecked.  Maybe there is still something to do with the owner, that only Vim cares about.  Can you set yourself as the owner of the directory?  I had problems doing that; I would make myself the owner of the directory, but mounting would change that, so I made those changes to the mount command, and finally got it working.

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    • Graham Lawrence
      I thank you all for your help, but I really can t use your recommendations without screwing up something else on my system. I have a script which runs
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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        I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
        recommendations without screwing up something else on my system. I
        have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
        immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
        automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail. It
        runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
        drive.

        The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
        permissions for all users. These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
        chgrp as explained at
        http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
        As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
        slackware. I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
        and the core utilities.

        I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
        use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
        But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
        automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
        tries to write to this ntfs drive. The only feasible solution for me
        is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
        procedure for each buffer.

        I think this is a bug in vim. The ownership of the file should not be
        an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be. This is
        the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
        only vim.

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      • Marty Fried
        ... Vim that comes with it. It looked exactly like your setup... example: $ ls -l total 56 drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 2011-12-31 21:23 ./ drwxr-xr-x 24
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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          On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...> wrote:
          I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
          recommendations without screwing up something else on my system.  I
          have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
          immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
          automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail.  It
          runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
          drive.

          The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
          permissions for all users.  These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
          chgrp as explained at
             http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
          As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
          slackware.  I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
          and the core utilities.

          I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
          use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
          But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
          automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
          tries to write to this ntfs drive.  The only feasible solution for me
          is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
          procedure for each buffer.

          I think this is a bug in vim.  The ownership of the file should not be
          an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be.  This is
          the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
          only vim.

          I checked this on my Ubuntu 11.10 system with the default version of
          Vim that comes with it.  It looked exactly like your setup... example:
          $ ls -l
          total 56
          drwxrwxrwx 10 root  root   4096 2011-12-31 21:23 ./
          drwxr-xr-x 24 root  root   4096 2011-12-31 12:26 ../
          . . .
          drwxrwxrwx  1 root  root   8192 2012-01-02 12:00 xp-c/
          $ cd xp-c
          $ ls -l
          drwxrwxrwx  1 root root       4096 2012-01-03 08:56 Temp/
          $ cd Temp
          $ ls -l
          -rwxrwxrwx 2 root root    21 2012-01-03 08:51 BoiseNetWiz.txt*

          I was able to edit this file with vim/gvim with no problem, 
          either with editing nor with creating the temp file.

          I guess the reason I changed the permissions on my system were not
          to give me access, but to make the files not writable to all.  If
          nothing else, I don't like having all the file coloring as shown
          on my system with these settings.

          I never meant that you need to unmount/remount the drive just to use Vim,
          at least not normally.  I only said to do that for debugging to get the right
          mount command, then you would leave whatever works in your fstab file for
          startup.  But if you are convinced that this is a Vim problem, then I guess
          you don't want to bother.  Sorry nobody has been able to tell you the answer.




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        • Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
          ... Nobody said nothing about mount or umount nothing manually. You just need to change the mount options in your /etc/fstab file. Try something like this:
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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            2012/1/3 Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...>:
            > I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
            > recommendations without screwing up something else on my system.  I
            > have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
            > immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
            > automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail.  It
            > runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
            > drive.

            Nobody said nothing about mount or umount nothing manually. You just
            need to change the mount options in your /etc/fstab file.


            Try something like this:

            /dev/sdb1 /media/500gb ntfs-3g
            rw,user,auto,uid=<username>,gid=<groupname> 0 0

            ...changing <username> and <groupname> with your user and primary
            group names (primary group name is tipically the same as username --in
            fact, in Ubuntu, Debian and many other distros this is the default--).

            Umounting and remounting (with 'mount -a') is only to make changes to
            take effect without rebooting.

            But, in fact, them will take effect next time you reboot regardless
            you manually umount/remount or not.



            >
            > The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
            > permissions for all users.  These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
            > chgrp as explained at
            >    http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
            [...]

            This is **exactly** what I said in my first email in this thread:

            «Ownership and permissions are set only in the mount command.»

            ...they are set only in the mount command, but THEY ARE SET anyway.

            They defaults to root:root because root is the user who executes the
            mount command and no other thing is specified in fstab. Then root is a
            reasonable default option, but you can change this acording to your
            needings.



            > I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
            > use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
            > But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
            > automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
            > tries to write to this ntfs drive.  The only feasible solution for me
            > is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
            > procedure for each buffer.

            ...or discover what is causing this problem and fix it ;-)


            > I think this is a bug in vim.  The ownership of the file should not be
            > an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be.

            I suspect not.

            Execute vim with '-u /dev/null' (I think there is better way, but I
            don't remember it now) to avoid processing your .vimrc and try to edit
            and save some file in your NTFS filesystem.

            If it fail again, try to temporary remove all your plugins (If you
            have any) by renaming plugins directory.

            If I'm in truth, then you only need to play enabling/disabling
            settings in your .vimrc or plugins to determine which is causing the
            problem.

            If it continues failing, then it will seem a vim issue, but I think
            this will not occour because, as you said, vim doesn't need to change
            ownership or permissions to save a file. But some plugins or mappings
            may need it.


            > This is
            > the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
            > only vim.

            Vim must use operating system services to write files (there is no
            other way to do it for non privileged users in linux --and
            definitively there is no other right way to do it--).

            This services are the same for all programs. SURE your vim is trying
            to do something else. The questions are WHAT and WHY.



            Regards.

            --
            Joan Miquel Torres__________________________________
            Linux Registered User #164872
            http://www.mallorcaweb.net/joanmiquel
            BULMA: http://bulma.net http://breu.bulma.net/?l2301

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          • Charles Campbell
            ... May I assume you ve verified that you can create a file on the ntfs drive: ex. echo junk /media/500gb/junk append to a file on the ntfs drive: ex.
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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              Graham Lawrence wrote:
              > I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
              > recommendations without screwing up something else on my system. I
              > have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
              > immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
              > automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail. It
              > runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
              > drive.
              >
              > The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
              > permissions for all users. These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
              > chgrp as explained at
              > http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
              > As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
              > slackware. I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
              > and the core utilities.
              >
              > I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
              > use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
              > But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
              > automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
              > tries to write to this ntfs drive. The only feasible solution for me
              > is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
              > procedure for each buffer.
              >
              > I think this is a bug in vim. The ownership of the file should not be
              > an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be. This is
              > the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
              > only vim.
              >
              >
              May I assume you've verified that you can create a file on the ntfs drive:

              ex. echo "junk"> /media/500gb/junk

              append to a file on the ntfs drive:

              ex. echo "more junk">> /media/500gb/junk

              and that you can delete a file on the ntfs drive:

              ex. /bin/rm /media/500gb/junk

              from your Ubuntu system?

              After creating a file /media/500gb/junk, what does

              /bin/ls -lsa /media/500gb/junk

              show?

              Regards,
              Chip Campbell


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            • Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
              ... [...] ... I just missed this detail checking your answer while writting my last email ;-) ...But I could figure out that is very improbable that no other
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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                2012/1/3 Marty Fried <marty@...>:

                > I checked this on my Ubuntu 11.10 system with the default version of
                > Vim that comes with it.  It looked exactly like your setup...

                [...]

                > I was able to edit this file with vim/gvim with no problem,
                > either with editing nor with creating the temp file.
                >
                > I guess the reason I changed the permissions on my system were not
                > to give me access, but to make the files not writable to all.

                I just missed this detail checking your answer while writting my last
                email ;-) ...But I could figure out that is very improbable that no
                other users had the same problem before if it were result to be vim
                issue. But I have'nt any ntfs filesystem to check that. :-O

                Now is clear that the problem is in his vim setup and the only way to
                find the exact cause of it is to try disabling setting by setting.

                >  If
                > nothing else, I don't like having all the file coloring as shown
                > on my system with these settings.
                >
                > I never meant that you need to unmount/remount the drive just to use Vim,
                > at least not normally.  I only said to do that for debugging to get the
                > right
                > mount command, then you would leave whatever works in your fstab file for
                > startup.

                Of course ;-)

                > But if you are convinced that this is a Vim problem, then I guess
                > you don't want to bother.  Sorry nobody has been able to tell you the
                > answer.

                :-D


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              • Marty Fried
                Further thoughts: ... you should. ... experimenting with your fstab settings instead. ... possible solution. Did you know there is a Vim command that will
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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                  Further thoughts:
                  On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Marty Fried <marty@...> wrote:
                  On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...> wrote:
                  I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
                  recommendations without screwing up something else on my system.  I
                  have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
                  immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
                  automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail.  It
                  runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
                  drive.
                  There is no reason you should have to do this anyway.  Nobody suggested you should.
                   

                  The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
                  permissions for all users.  These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
                  chgrp as explained at
                     http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
                  As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
                  slackware.  I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
                  and the core utilities.
                  Yes, and I am very aware of this, which is exactly why I suggested experimenting with
                  your fstab settings instead. 

                  I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
                  use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that. 
                  But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
                  automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
                  tries to write to this ntfs drive.  The only feasible solution for me
                  is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
                  procedure for each buffer.
                  I wouldn't say it's the *only feasible* solution, only that it's a possible solution.

                  Did you know there is a Vim command that will automatically write any named, unsaved
                  buffers anytime Vim loses focus?  You can add this to your .vimrc:
                  au FocusLost * :wa

                  The Vim FAQ addresses this, and another that might be useful:
                  23.5. How do I automatically save all the changed buffers whenever Vim
                        loses focus?
                  
                  You can define an autocommand for the FocusLost event which will save all
                  the modified buffers whenever Vim loses focus:
                      :autocmd FocusLost * wall
                  
                  For more information, read
                      :help FocusLost
                      :help :wall
                  
                  
                  23.6. How do I execute/run a function when Vim exits to do some cleanup?
                  
                  You can use VimLeave autocmd event to execute a function just before Vim
                  exists. For example,
                      :autocmd VimLeave * call MyCleanupFunction()
                  
                  For more information, read
                      :help VimLeave

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                • Bram Moolenaar
                  ... One suggestion I haven t heard yet: Try changing the backupcopy setting. Vim has some protection against doing bad things with root permission, that
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                    Graham Lawrence wrote:

                    > I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
                    > recommendations without screwing up something else on my system. I
                    > have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
                    > immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
                    > automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail. It
                    > runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
                    > drive.
                    >
                    > The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
                    > permissions for all users. These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
                    > chgrp as explained at
                    > http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
                    > As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
                    > slackware. I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
                    > and the core utilities.
                    >
                    > I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
                    > use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
                    > But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
                    > automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
                    > tries to write to this ntfs drive. The only feasible solution for me
                    > is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
                    > procedure for each buffer.
                    >
                    > I think this is a bug in vim. The ownership of the file should not be
                    > an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be. This is
                    > the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
                    > only vim.

                    One suggestion I haven't heard yet: Try changing the 'backupcopy'
                    setting.

                    Vim has some protection against doing bad things with root permission,
                    that might interfere with what you are doing.

                    --
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                  • Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                    ... If I understood well, vim is executed as non privileged user, not root. But the permissions of all files (inexistent in ntfs) are set according to a
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                      2012/1/4 Bram Moolenaar <Bram@...>:

                      >
                      > One suggestion I haven't heard yet: Try changing the 'backupcopy'
                      > setting.
                      >
                      > Vim has some protection against doing bad things with root permission,
                      > that might interfere with what you are doing.

                      If I understood well, vim is executed as non privileged user, not root.

                      But the permissions of all files (inexistent in ntfs) are set
                      according to a predefined mask which, in this case, includes execution
                      privilege for user, goup and other which, of course, can be a relative
                      security risk if the owner is root. Maybe that is what you would
                      mean...

                      NOTE: The write permission in the mask cannot be removed because, for
                      directorys, this means the "enter" permission (read and write
                      permissions in directorys always belongs to its contents). Then, the
                      only way to remove execution permission for root in a ntfs files is
                      setting the ownership of the whole filesystem to other user..



                      Regards.

                      --
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                      Linux Registered User #164872
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                    • Marty Fried
                      ... someone with root permission should know what they are doing, and is working without protection on purpose. Also, I m surprised that Vim would even know.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                        On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:37 AM, Bram Moolenaar <Bram@...> wrote:

                        Vim has some protection against doing bad things with root permission,
                        that might interfere with what you are doing.

                        I'm surprised to hear this - it seems to go against the philosophy that someone with root permission should know what they are doing, and is working  without protection on purpose.  Also, I'm surprised that Vim would even know.

                        I'm curious now about what sort of protection there is.

                        -- 
                        Marty Fried
                         

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                      • Graham Lawrence
                        My apologies to all. It is something in my vimrc. Without that, vim creates and edits on ntfs without complaint. My thanks to Joan Miquel Torres Rigo for
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                          My apologies to all. It is something in my vimrc. Without that, vim
                          creates and edits on ntfs without complaint. My thanks to Joan Miquel
                          Torres Rigo for the suggestion.

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                        • Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                          ... That s not exact: Root account should NEVER been used in production environments. You should use sudo instead. Apart of that, a welder also should know
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                            2012/1/4 Marty Fried <marty@...>:
                            >>
                            > I'm surprised to hear this - it seems to go against the philosophy that
                            > someone with root permission should know what they are doing, and is working
                            >  without protection on purpose.

                            That's not exact:

                            Root account should NEVER been used in production environments. You
                            should use sudo instead.

                            Apart of that, a welder also should know what he are doing while
                            managing soldering iron. But leaving things disordered in its
                            workspace is always a bad idea. Even when you know exactly what you
                            are doing.

                            Similarly, having execution permission for file, like plain text or
                            html, which is not designed to be executied, is a bad idea:

                            First because you probably took less care about write access to that
                            file because you didn't planed to execute it.

                            And, second because, anytime you can, for example, forgive to type
                            'vim' before the file name when trying to edit it.

                            ...And I didn't talk about suid permission (which lets any user with
                            execution permission to execute the file as if he were the owner
                            --temporary "becoming him"--) ...but this permission is never set in
                            usual umasks like when mounting not permission-enabled filesystems.



                            Regards.

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                          • Marty Fried
                            On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                              On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Joan Miquel Torres Rigo <joanmiquel@...> wrote:
                              2012/1/4 Marty Fried <marty@...>:
                              >>
                              > I'm surprised to hear this - it seems to go against the philosophy that
                              > someone with root permission should know what they are doing, and is working
                              >  without protection on purpose.

                              That's not exact:

                              Root account should NEVER been used in production environments. You
                              should use sudo instead.
                              I agree.  That is why I believe that if someone is using root account for something, it is probably for maintenance, or to fix a problem.  It may be that the person has root access for maintenance, but is not in the sudo users file, and doesn't have time to set it up for a one-time use.  


                              Apart of that, a welder also should know what he are doing while
                              managing soldering iron. But leaving things disordered in its
                              workspace is always a bad idea. Even when you know exactly what you
                              are doing.
                              I think the welder is the normal user.  It's more like root is a repair person, who is repairing the welder's equipment.  A welder shouldn't take the equipment apart, normally, but a repair person may need to, and knows what they are doing.  You don't want to disable the equipment in some way when he's working on it, as he may need it to be functioning normally to fix it.

                               -- 
                              Marty Fried

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                            • Christian Brabandt
                              Hi Graham! ... What is the culprit? regards, Christian -- Ist mein Fleisch willig, kann Dein Geist noch so schwach sein. -- You received this message from the
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                Hi Graham!

                                On Mi, 04 Jan 2012, Graham Lawrence wrote:

                                > My apologies to all. It is something in my vimrc. Without that, vim
                                > creates and edits on ntfs without complaint. My thanks to Joan Miquel
                                > Torres Rigo for the suggestion.

                                What is the culprit?

                                regards,
                                Christian
                                --
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                              • Charles Campbell
                                ... Nice philosophy, but: I suspect that due to the free nature of the various linux distros, there are quite a few root users who only barely know what
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                  Marty Fried wrote:
                                  > On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                                  > <joanmiquel@... <mailto:joanmiquel@...>> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > 2012/1/4 Marty Fried <marty@...
                                  > <mailto:marty@...>>:
                                  > >>
                                  > > I'm surprised to hear this - it seems to go against the
                                  > philosophy that
                                  > > someone with root permission should know what they are doing,
                                  > and is working
                                  > > without protection on purpose.
                                  >
                                  > That's not exact:
                                  >
                                  > Root account should NEVER been used in production environments. You
                                  > should use sudo instead.
                                  >
                                  > I agree. That is why I believe that if someone is using root account
                                  > for something, it is probably for maintenance, or to fix a problem.
                                  > It may be that the person has root access for maintenance, but is not
                                  > in the sudo users file, and doesn't have time to set it up for a
                                  > one-time use.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Apart of that, a welder also should know what he are doing while
                                  > managing soldering iron. But leaving things disordered in its
                                  > workspace is always a bad idea. Even when you know exactly what you
                                  > are doing.
                                  >
                                  > I think the welder is the normal user. It's more like root is a
                                  > repair person, who is repairing the welder's equipment. A welder
                                  > shouldn't take the equipment apart, normally, but a repair person may
                                  > need to, and knows what they are doing. You don't want to disable the
                                  > equipment in some way when he's working on it, as he may need it to be
                                  > functioning normally to fix it.
                                  >
                                  Nice philosophy, but: I suspect that due to the free nature of the
                                  various linux distros, there are quite a few "root" users who only
                                  barely know what they're doing. Having a complex editor like Vim doing
                                  things (such as backups, changing permissions, changing ownership) isn't
                                  a good idea imho. Such things should be done explicitly (ie.
                                  chmod,chgrp, chown, or by menu); requiring all the barely to somewhat
                                  competent root administrators to have mastered all the nuances of vim is
                                  naive.
                                  Admittedly, I didn't go over all 83 hits I got with helpgrep in detail.

                                  Regards,
                                  Chip Campbell

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                                • Marty Fried
                                  On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles Campbell
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                    On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles Campbell <Charles.E.Campbell@...> wrote:
                                    Marty Fried wrote:

                                    I agree.  That is why I believe that if someone is using root account for something, it is probably for maintenance, or to fix a problem.  It may be that the person has root access for maintenance, but is not in the sudo users file, and doesn't have time to set it up for a one-time use.


                                    Nice philosophy, but: I suspect that due to the free nature of the various linux distros, there are quite a few "root" users who only barely know what they're doing.  Having a complex editor like Vim doing things (such as backups, changing permissions, changing ownership) isn't a good idea imho.  Such things should be done explicitly (ie. chmod,chgrp, chown, or by menu); requiring all the barely to somewhat competent root administrators to have mastered all the nuances of vim is naive.
                                    Admittedly, I didn't go over all 83 hits I got with helpgrep in detail.
                                    I guess I spoke somewhat out of ignorance; I wasn't aware that Vim did those things.  I don't even know how, and I'm not sure if I want to know.  :)

                                    I use the explicit methods you mentioned. I'm a simple kind of guy, and I like things to be pretty modular, so I know what will happen.  When I use an editor, I only expect it to change the contents of the file.  It's nice that it allows me, after prompting, to save to a read-only file, and I appreciate it sometimes, but I wouldn't mind if it didn't.

                                     I'll admit that I'm somewhat torn in my opinions about protecting barely competent users from themselves.  Throughout my long experience with computers, that's mostly the way I learned, by destroying things.  I learned things like backing up, not assuming things when the consequences matter, etc.

                                    Now, if it were Windows, maybe I would expect the handholding.  But I've messed up Windows in the past, too.  :)

                                    Regards,

                                    Marty Fried

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                                  • porphyry5
                                    ... Apparently there is no culprit. After creating the file as I described, I returned vimrc to its place, preparatory to testing each individual entry.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 5, 2012
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                                      On Jan 4, 1:28 pm, Christian Brabandt <cbli...@...> wrote:
                                      > Hi Graham!
                                      >
                                      > On Mi, 04 Jan 2012, Graham Lawrence wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > My apologies to all.  It is something in my vimrc.  Without that, vim
                                      > > creates and edits on ntfs without complaint.  My thanks to Joan Miquel
                                      > > Torres Rigo for the suggestion.
                                      >
                                      > What is the culprit?

                                      Apparently there is no culprit. After creating the file as I
                                      described, I returned vimrc to its place, preparatory to testing each
                                      individual entry. Repetitive drudgery is not to my taste, so rather
                                      than get down to it I decided to do a little clutching at straws.
                                      Went back to the buffer of the file created on the ntfs drive, added
                                      an "a" to it and issued a write command, which executed without
                                      incident. Similarly I created another new file on the drive.

                                      I have no explanation, and I'm not about to look for one.
                                      >
                                      > regards,
                                      > Christian
                                      > --
                                      > Ist mein Fleisch willig, kann Dein Geist noch so schwach sein.

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