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Re: Can't write to ntfs file system

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  • Marty Fried
    ... I m not an expert, but I ve always managed to get things like this working. I had some problems originally with my NTFS partitions, although I don t
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2012
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      On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...> wrote:
      I have an external hard drive that is in ntfs file format.  Vim will
      neither create a file, nor write to existing files, on this file
      system.  It returns E212, saying I do not have permission.

      The drive mounts automatically from my fstab entry when I start the system

         /dev/sdb1        /media/500gb     ntfs-3g     rw,user,auto     0   0

      and mount shows it as

         /dev/sdb1 on /media/500gb type fuseblk
      (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,allow_other,blksize=4096)

      so its permissions and ownerships are universally, e.g.

         /media/500gb/Films/Mouchette (1967) (French with English Subtitles) $ls -l
         total 4
         drwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4096 Jan  1 08:50 VIDEO_TS/
         -rwxrwxrwx 1 root root    0 Jan  1 10:40 mplog*

      I'm not an expert, but I've always managed to get things like this working.  I had some problems originally with my NTFS partitions, although I don't remember the details.  I think it may have had to do with the owner, rather than the permissions, but there must be more to it, since it appears that everyone should be able to write to it. But things aren't always what they appear to be.  :)

      I had to change my mount to something much more complex than the default.  Mine now looks like this on my Ubuntu system; I'm using UUIDs instead of device names.

      UUID=##big number##    /media/subdirectory   ntfs  auto,users,uid=username,gid=username,utf8,dmask=027,fmask=137  0   0

      Pardon me if this is too elementary, but I'd recommend unmounting the device, editing fstab (and saving, of course), then entering "mount -a" in a terminal to test.  Modify if needed, then repeat until it works or you give up.  At least, that's my usual procedure.

      Hope this helps, and hope nobody minds the off-topic discussion.

      Good luck...
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    • Graham Lawrence
      Sorry, should have been more emphatic, I have the ntfs-3g driver. Vim is the *only* app that has a problem writing to this device, all others do so freely. I
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 2, 2012
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        Sorry, should have been more emphatic, I have the ntfs-3g driver. Vim
        is the *only* app that has a problem writing to this device, all
        others do so freely. I have to keep windows to run my printer and tv,
        but virtually all the files on this ntfs drive are created in linux.

        So the problem is specific to vim. The help has no reference for ntfs
        or fat32, but as vim can be used on windows it must be able to write
        to these file systems. Or is that a feature only available with the
        windows version?

        I would much prefer a solution within vim itself, rather than tinker
        with my fstab. It took a lot of false starts to get this device to
        automount on system start-up, without activating linux's excessive
        deference to the pathetic OS, and thus trying to boot from the ntfs
        drive.

        What I do at the moment is use a mapping that writes such files to my
        linux hd, then copies it to the ntfs drive, but I often forget to use
        it as I rely on another mapping to close vim down that also saves all
        open buffers.

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      • Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
        ... This cannot be vim-ntfs issue because vim hasn t access to ntfs (or any other) filesystem except than VFS (Virtual FileSystem) abstraction. The only things
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 2, 2012
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          2012/1/2 Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...>:
          > Sorry, should have been more emphatic, I have the ntfs-3g driver.  Vim
          > is the *only* app that has a problem writing to this device, all
          > others do so freely.  I have to keep windows to run my printer and tv,
          > but virtually all the files on this ntfs drive are created in linux.
          >
          > So the problem is specific to vim.

          This cannot be vim-ntfs issue because vim hasn't access to ntfs (or
          any other) filesystem except than VFS (Virtual FileSystem)
          abstraction.

          The only things that changes are the filesystem cababilities and how
          VFS handles the missing ones.

          For example, NTFS hasn't support for file's user / group ownership.

          As you said, you have read and write pemissions for these files but,
          if you see at your own report, you can discover that YOU ARE NOT the
          owner of those files because ntfs doesn't support such thing and the
          user who mounted the filesystem was root.

          Then, you have read and write permissions, but you cannot change this
          permissions or ownership. Which is probably what vim is trying to do.

          Why vim is trying to that is a vim issue (also maybe related with your
          .vimrc and/or the plugins yo are using). If you discover that,
          probably you can change this behaviour (sure loosing some --maybe
          unwanted-- feature).

          Why you aren't the owner IS operating system and fstab setup issue.

          It could be interesting to know what and why is trying to do vim that
          only the file owner can do. But I thing is more interesting to become
          the file owner to be able to do that. Regardless if wi finally decide
          that we want or not.




          > The help has no reference for ntfs
          > or fat32, but as vim can be used on windows it must be able to write
          > to these file systems.  Or is that a feature only available with the
          > windows version?

          No. Vim has no access to phisical filesystems in linux. And in windows
          maybe, but it is definitively a bad idea to do that in any way.



          PD: Is not a solution, but while you are searching for that, you can
          overwrite the file with:

          :w ! cat > %
          (notice the space between 'w' and '!')


          Regards.

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        • Marty Fried
          ... Vim can definitely edit files on an NTFS partition - I do it, and rechecked. Maybe there is still something to do with the owner, that only Vim cares
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 2, 2012
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            On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...> wrote:
            Sorry, should have been more emphatic, I have the ntfs-3g driver.  Vim
            is the *only* app that has a problem writing to this device, all
            others do so freely.  I have to keep windows to run my printer and tv,
            but virtually all the files on this ntfs drive are created in linux.

            Sorry, I didn't really know what ntfs-3g meant at the time.

            Vim can definitely edit files on an NTFS partition - I do it, and rechecked.  Maybe there is still something to do with the owner, that only Vim cares about.  Can you set yourself as the owner of the directory?  I had problems doing that; I would make myself the owner of the directory, but mounting would change that, so I made those changes to the mount command, and finally got it working.

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          • Graham Lawrence
            I thank you all for your help, but I really can t use your recommendations without screwing up something else on my system. I have a script which runs
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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              I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
              recommendations without screwing up something else on my system. I
              have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
              immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
              automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail. It
              runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
              drive.

              The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
              permissions for all users. These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
              chgrp as explained at
              http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
              As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
              slackware. I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
              and the core utilities.

              I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
              use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
              But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
              automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
              tries to write to this ntfs drive. The only feasible solution for me
              is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
              procedure for each buffer.

              I think this is a bug in vim. The ownership of the file should not be
              an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be. This is
              the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
              only vim.

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            • Marty Fried
              ... Vim that comes with it. It looked exactly like your setup... example: $ ls -l total 56 drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 2011-12-31 21:23 ./ drwxr-xr-x 24
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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                On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...> wrote:
                I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
                recommendations without screwing up something else on my system.  I
                have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
                immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
                automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail.  It
                runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
                drive.

                The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
                permissions for all users.  These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
                chgrp as explained at
                   http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
                As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
                slackware.  I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
                and the core utilities.

                I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
                use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
                But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
                automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
                tries to write to this ntfs drive.  The only feasible solution for me
                is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
                procedure for each buffer.

                I think this is a bug in vim.  The ownership of the file should not be
                an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be.  This is
                the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
                only vim.

                I checked this on my Ubuntu 11.10 system with the default version of
                Vim that comes with it.  It looked exactly like your setup... example:
                $ ls -l
                total 56
                drwxrwxrwx 10 root  root   4096 2011-12-31 21:23 ./
                drwxr-xr-x 24 root  root   4096 2011-12-31 12:26 ../
                . . .
                drwxrwxrwx  1 root  root   8192 2012-01-02 12:00 xp-c/
                $ cd xp-c
                $ ls -l
                drwxrwxrwx  1 root root       4096 2012-01-03 08:56 Temp/
                $ cd Temp
                $ ls -l
                -rwxrwxrwx 2 root root    21 2012-01-03 08:51 BoiseNetWiz.txt*

                I was able to edit this file with vim/gvim with no problem, 
                either with editing nor with creating the temp file.

                I guess the reason I changed the permissions on my system were not
                to give me access, but to make the files not writable to all.  If
                nothing else, I don't like having all the file coloring as shown
                on my system with these settings.

                I never meant that you need to unmount/remount the drive just to use Vim,
                at least not normally.  I only said to do that for debugging to get the right
                mount command, then you would leave whatever works in your fstab file for
                startup.  But if you are convinced that this is a Vim problem, then I guess
                you don't want to bother.  Sorry nobody has been able to tell you the answer.




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              • Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                ... Nobody said nothing about mount or umount nothing manually. You just need to change the mount options in your /etc/fstab file. Try something like this:
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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                  2012/1/3 Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...>:
                  > I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
                  > recommendations without screwing up something else on my system.  I
                  > have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
                  > immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
                  > automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail.  It
                  > runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
                  > drive.

                  Nobody said nothing about mount or umount nothing manually. You just
                  need to change the mount options in your /etc/fstab file.


                  Try something like this:

                  /dev/sdb1 /media/500gb ntfs-3g
                  rw,user,auto,uid=<username>,gid=<groupname> 0 0

                  ...changing <username> and <groupname> with your user and primary
                  group names (primary group name is tipically the same as username --in
                  fact, in Ubuntu, Debian and many other distros this is the default--).

                  Umounting and remounting (with 'mount -a') is only to make changes to
                  take effect without rebooting.

                  But, in fact, them will take effect next time you reboot regardless
                  you manually umount/remount or not.



                  >
                  > The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
                  > permissions for all users.  These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
                  > chgrp as explained at
                  >    http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
                  [...]

                  This is **exactly** what I said in my first email in this thread:

                  «Ownership and permissions are set only in the mount command.»

                  ...they are set only in the mount command, but THEY ARE SET anyway.

                  They defaults to root:root because root is the user who executes the
                  mount command and no other thing is specified in fstab. Then root is a
                  reasonable default option, but you can change this acording to your
                  needings.



                  > I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
                  > use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
                  > But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
                  > automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
                  > tries to write to this ntfs drive.  The only feasible solution for me
                  > is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
                  > procedure for each buffer.

                  ...or discover what is causing this problem and fix it ;-)


                  > I think this is a bug in vim.  The ownership of the file should not be
                  > an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be.

                  I suspect not.

                  Execute vim with '-u /dev/null' (I think there is better way, but I
                  don't remember it now) to avoid processing your .vimrc and try to edit
                  and save some file in your NTFS filesystem.

                  If it fail again, try to temporary remove all your plugins (If you
                  have any) by renaming plugins directory.

                  If I'm in truth, then you only need to play enabling/disabling
                  settings in your .vimrc or plugins to determine which is causing the
                  problem.

                  If it continues failing, then it will seem a vim issue, but I think
                  this will not occour because, as you said, vim doesn't need to change
                  ownership or permissions to save a file. But some plugins or mappings
                  may need it.


                  > This is
                  > the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
                  > only vim.

                  Vim must use operating system services to write files (there is no
                  other way to do it for non privileged users in linux --and
                  definitively there is no other right way to do it--).

                  This services are the same for all programs. SURE your vim is trying
                  to do something else. The questions are WHAT and WHY.



                  Regards.

                  --
                  Joan Miquel Torres__________________________________
                  Linux Registered User #164872
                  http://www.mallorcaweb.net/joanmiquel
                  BULMA: http://bulma.net http://breu.bulma.net/?l2301

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                • Charles Campbell
                  ... May I assume you ve verified that you can create a file on the ntfs drive: ex. echo junk /media/500gb/junk append to a file on the ntfs drive: ex.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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                    Graham Lawrence wrote:
                    > I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
                    > recommendations without screwing up something else on my system. I
                    > have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
                    > immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
                    > automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail. It
                    > runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
                    > drive.
                    >
                    > The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
                    > permissions for all users. These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
                    > chgrp as explained at
                    > http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
                    > As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
                    > slackware. I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
                    > and the core utilities.
                    >
                    > I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
                    > use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
                    > But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
                    > automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
                    > tries to write to this ntfs drive. The only feasible solution for me
                    > is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
                    > procedure for each buffer.
                    >
                    > I think this is a bug in vim. The ownership of the file should not be
                    > an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be. This is
                    > the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
                    > only vim.
                    >
                    >
                    May I assume you've verified that you can create a file on the ntfs drive:

                    ex. echo "junk"> /media/500gb/junk

                    append to a file on the ntfs drive:

                    ex. echo "more junk">> /media/500gb/junk

                    and that you can delete a file on the ntfs drive:

                    ex. /bin/rm /media/500gb/junk

                    from your Ubuntu system?

                    After creating a file /media/500gb/junk, what does

                    /bin/ls -lsa /media/500gb/junk

                    show?

                    Regards,
                    Chip Campbell


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                  • Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                    ... [...] ... I just missed this detail checking your answer while writting my last email ;-) ...But I could figure out that is very improbable that no other
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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                      2012/1/3 Marty Fried <marty@...>:

                      > I checked this on my Ubuntu 11.10 system with the default version of
                      > Vim that comes with it.  It looked exactly like your setup...

                      [...]

                      > I was able to edit this file with vim/gvim with no problem,
                      > either with editing nor with creating the temp file.
                      >
                      > I guess the reason I changed the permissions on my system were not
                      > to give me access, but to make the files not writable to all.

                      I just missed this detail checking your answer while writting my last
                      email ;-) ...But I could figure out that is very improbable that no
                      other users had the same problem before if it were result to be vim
                      issue. But I have'nt any ntfs filesystem to check that. :-O

                      Now is clear that the problem is in his vim setup and the only way to
                      find the exact cause of it is to try disabling setting by setting.

                      >  If
                      > nothing else, I don't like having all the file coloring as shown
                      > on my system with these settings.
                      >
                      > I never meant that you need to unmount/remount the drive just to use Vim,
                      > at least not normally.  I only said to do that for debugging to get the
                      > right
                      > mount command, then you would leave whatever works in your fstab file for
                      > startup.

                      Of course ;-)

                      > But if you are convinced that this is a Vim problem, then I guess
                      > you don't want to bother.  Sorry nobody has been able to tell you the
                      > answer.

                      :-D


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                    • Marty Fried
                      Further thoughts: ... you should. ... experimenting with your fstab settings instead. ... possible solution. Did you know there is a Vim command that will
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 3, 2012
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                        Further thoughts:
                        On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Marty Fried <marty@...> wrote:
                        On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Graham Lawrence <gl00637@...> wrote:
                        I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
                        recommendations without screwing up something else on my system.  I
                        have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
                        immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
                        automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail.  It
                        runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
                        drive.
                        There is no reason you should have to do this anyway.  Nobody suggested you should.
                         

                        The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
                        permissions for all users.  These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
                        chgrp as explained at
                           http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
                        As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
                        slackware.  I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
                        and the core utilities.
                        Yes, and I am very aware of this, which is exactly why I suggested experimenting with
                        your fstab settings instead. 

                        I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
                        use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that. 
                        But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
                        automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
                        tries to write to this ntfs drive.  The only feasible solution for me
                        is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
                        procedure for each buffer.
                        I wouldn't say it's the *only feasible* solution, only that it's a possible solution.

                        Did you know there is a Vim command that will automatically write any named, unsaved
                        buffers anytime Vim loses focus?  You can add this to your .vimrc:
                        au FocusLost * :wa

                        The Vim FAQ addresses this, and another that might be useful:
                        23.5. How do I automatically save all the changed buffers whenever Vim
                              loses focus?
                        
                        You can define an autocommand for the FocusLost event which will save all
                        the modified buffers whenever Vim loses focus:
                            :autocmd FocusLost * wall
                        
                        For more information, read
                            :help FocusLost
                            :help :wall
                        
                        
                        23.6. How do I execute/run a function when Vim exits to do some cleanup?
                        
                        You can use VimLeave autocmd event to execute a function just before Vim
                        exists. For example,
                            :autocmd VimLeave * call MyCleanupFunction()
                        
                        For more information, read
                            :help VimLeave

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                      • Bram Moolenaar
                        ... One suggestion I haven t heard yet: Try changing the backupcopy setting. Vim has some protection against doing bad things with root permission, that
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                          Graham Lawrence wrote:

                          > I thank you all for your help, but I really can't use your
                          > recommendations without screwing up something else on my system. I
                          > have a script which runs automatically on system startup which
                          > immediately references this ntfs drive, so I must have this drive
                          > automount on startup like my internal HD, or the script will fail. It
                          > runs for several hours, during which I can't unmount and remount the
                          > drive.
                          >
                          > The initial mount command assigns the drive to ROOT:ROOT with rwx
                          > permissions for all users. These cannot be changed with chown, chmod,
                          > chgrp as explained at
                          > http://ubuntu.swerdna.org/ubuntfs.html
                          > As this is an ubuntu site this behavior is not specific to my distro,
                          > slackware. I assume it is standard behavior for the kernel, ntfs-3g
                          > and the core utilities.
                          >
                          > I appreciate that one can get vim to write to this drive by having it
                          > use a different linux command to do so, and am already doing that.
                          > But I often forget to use it because my vim shutdown script
                          > automatically writes out any altered buffers; but then it fails if it
                          > tries to write to this ntfs drive. The only feasible solution for me
                          > is to elaborate my shutdown script to choose the appropriate write
                          > procedure for each buffer.
                          >
                          > I think this is a bug in vim. The ownership of the file should not be
                          > an issue, only the permissions, which are as they should be. This is
                          > the standard adhered to by all other apps except, as far as I know,
                          > only vim.

                          One suggestion I haven't heard yet: Try changing the 'backupcopy'
                          setting.

                          Vim has some protection against doing bad things with root permission,
                          that might interfere with what you are doing.

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                        • Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                          ... If I understood well, vim is executed as non privileged user, not root. But the permissions of all files (inexistent in ntfs) are set according to a
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                            2012/1/4 Bram Moolenaar <Bram@...>:

                            >
                            > One suggestion I haven't heard yet: Try changing the 'backupcopy'
                            > setting.
                            >
                            > Vim has some protection against doing bad things with root permission,
                            > that might interfere with what you are doing.

                            If I understood well, vim is executed as non privileged user, not root.

                            But the permissions of all files (inexistent in ntfs) are set
                            according to a predefined mask which, in this case, includes execution
                            privilege for user, goup and other which, of course, can be a relative
                            security risk if the owner is root. Maybe that is what you would
                            mean...

                            NOTE: The write permission in the mask cannot be removed because, for
                            directorys, this means the "enter" permission (read and write
                            permissions in directorys always belongs to its contents). Then, the
                            only way to remove execution permission for root in a ntfs files is
                            setting the ownership of the whole filesystem to other user..



                            Regards.

                            --
                            Joan Miquel Torres__________________________________
                            Linux Registered User #164872
                            http://www.mallorcaweb.net/joanmiquel
                            BULMA: http://bulma.net http://breu.bulma.net/?l2301

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                          • Marty Fried
                            ... someone with root permission should know what they are doing, and is working without protection on purpose. Also, I m surprised that Vim would even know.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                              On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:37 AM, Bram Moolenaar <Bram@...> wrote:

                              Vim has some protection against doing bad things with root permission,
                              that might interfere with what you are doing.

                              I'm surprised to hear this - it seems to go against the philosophy that someone with root permission should know what they are doing, and is working  without protection on purpose.  Also, I'm surprised that Vim would even know.

                              I'm curious now about what sort of protection there is.

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                            • Graham Lawrence
                              My apologies to all. It is something in my vimrc. Without that, vim creates and edits on ntfs without complaint. My thanks to Joan Miquel Torres Rigo for
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                My apologies to all. It is something in my vimrc. Without that, vim
                                creates and edits on ntfs without complaint. My thanks to Joan Miquel
                                Torres Rigo for the suggestion.

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                              • Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                                ... That s not exact: Root account should NEVER been used in production environments. You should use sudo instead. Apart of that, a welder also should know
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                  2012/1/4 Marty Fried <marty@...>:
                                  >>
                                  > I'm surprised to hear this - it seems to go against the philosophy that
                                  > someone with root permission should know what they are doing, and is working
                                  >  without protection on purpose.

                                  That's not exact:

                                  Root account should NEVER been used in production environments. You
                                  should use sudo instead.

                                  Apart of that, a welder also should know what he are doing while
                                  managing soldering iron. But leaving things disordered in its
                                  workspace is always a bad idea. Even when you know exactly what you
                                  are doing.

                                  Similarly, having execution permission for file, like plain text or
                                  html, which is not designed to be executied, is a bad idea:

                                  First because you probably took less care about write access to that
                                  file because you didn't planed to execute it.

                                  And, second because, anytime you can, for example, forgive to type
                                  'vim' before the file name when trying to edit it.

                                  ...And I didn't talk about suid permission (which lets any user with
                                  execution permission to execute the file as if he were the owner
                                  --temporary "becoming him"--) ...but this permission is never set in
                                  usual umasks like when mounting not permission-enabled filesystems.



                                  Regards.

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                                • Marty Fried
                                  On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                    On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Joan Miquel Torres Rigo <joanmiquel@...> wrote:
                                    2012/1/4 Marty Fried <marty@...>:
                                    >>
                                    > I'm surprised to hear this - it seems to go against the philosophy that
                                    > someone with root permission should know what they are doing, and is working
                                    >  without protection on purpose.

                                    That's not exact:

                                    Root account should NEVER been used in production environments. You
                                    should use sudo instead.
                                    I agree.  That is why I believe that if someone is using root account for something, it is probably for maintenance, or to fix a problem.  It may be that the person has root access for maintenance, but is not in the sudo users file, and doesn't have time to set it up for a one-time use.  


                                    Apart of that, a welder also should know what he are doing while
                                    managing soldering iron. But leaving things disordered in its
                                    workspace is always a bad idea. Even when you know exactly what you
                                    are doing.
                                    I think the welder is the normal user.  It's more like root is a repair person, who is repairing the welder's equipment.  A welder shouldn't take the equipment apart, normally, but a repair person may need to, and knows what they are doing.  You don't want to disable the equipment in some way when he's working on it, as he may need it to be functioning normally to fix it.

                                     -- 
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                                  • Christian Brabandt
                                    Hi Graham! ... What is the culprit? regards, Christian -- Ist mein Fleisch willig, kann Dein Geist noch so schwach sein. -- You received this message from the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                      Hi Graham!

                                      On Mi, 04 Jan 2012, Graham Lawrence wrote:

                                      > My apologies to all. It is something in my vimrc. Without that, vim
                                      > creates and edits on ntfs without complaint. My thanks to Joan Miquel
                                      > Torres Rigo for the suggestion.

                                      What is the culprit?

                                      regards,
                                      Christian
                                      --
                                      Ist mein Fleisch willig, kann Dein Geist noch so schwach sein.

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                                    • Charles Campbell
                                      ... Nice philosophy, but: I suspect that due to the free nature of the various linux distros, there are quite a few root users who only barely know what
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                        Marty Fried wrote:
                                        > On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Joan Miquel Torres Rigo
                                        > <joanmiquel@... <mailto:joanmiquel@...>> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > 2012/1/4 Marty Fried <marty@...
                                        > <mailto:marty@...>>:
                                        > >>
                                        > > I'm surprised to hear this - it seems to go against the
                                        > philosophy that
                                        > > someone with root permission should know what they are doing,
                                        > and is working
                                        > > without protection on purpose.
                                        >
                                        > That's not exact:
                                        >
                                        > Root account should NEVER been used in production environments. You
                                        > should use sudo instead.
                                        >
                                        > I agree. That is why I believe that if someone is using root account
                                        > for something, it is probably for maintenance, or to fix a problem.
                                        > It may be that the person has root access for maintenance, but is not
                                        > in the sudo users file, and doesn't have time to set it up for a
                                        > one-time use.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Apart of that, a welder also should know what he are doing while
                                        > managing soldering iron. But leaving things disordered in its
                                        > workspace is always a bad idea. Even when you know exactly what you
                                        > are doing.
                                        >
                                        > I think the welder is the normal user. It's more like root is a
                                        > repair person, who is repairing the welder's equipment. A welder
                                        > shouldn't take the equipment apart, normally, but a repair person may
                                        > need to, and knows what they are doing. You don't want to disable the
                                        > equipment in some way when he's working on it, as he may need it to be
                                        > functioning normally to fix it.
                                        >
                                        Nice philosophy, but: I suspect that due to the free nature of the
                                        various linux distros, there are quite a few "root" users who only
                                        barely know what they're doing. Having a complex editor like Vim doing
                                        things (such as backups, changing permissions, changing ownership) isn't
                                        a good idea imho. Such things should be done explicitly (ie.
                                        chmod,chgrp, chown, or by menu); requiring all the barely to somewhat
                                        competent root administrators to have mastered all the nuances of vim is
                                        naive.
                                        Admittedly, I didn't go over all 83 hits I got with helpgrep in detail.

                                        Regards,
                                        Chip Campbell

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                                      • Marty Fried
                                        On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles Campbell
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                          On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles Campbell <Charles.E.Campbell@...> wrote:
                                          Marty Fried wrote:

                                          I agree.  That is why I believe that if someone is using root account for something, it is probably for maintenance, or to fix a problem.  It may be that the person has root access for maintenance, but is not in the sudo users file, and doesn't have time to set it up for a one-time use.


                                          Nice philosophy, but: I suspect that due to the free nature of the various linux distros, there are quite a few "root" users who only barely know what they're doing.  Having a complex editor like Vim doing things (such as backups, changing permissions, changing ownership) isn't a good idea imho.  Such things should be done explicitly (ie. chmod,chgrp, chown, or by menu); requiring all the barely to somewhat competent root administrators to have mastered all the nuances of vim is naive.
                                          Admittedly, I didn't go over all 83 hits I got with helpgrep in detail.
                                          I guess I spoke somewhat out of ignorance; I wasn't aware that Vim did those things.  I don't even know how, and I'm not sure if I want to know.  :)

                                          I use the explicit methods you mentioned. I'm a simple kind of guy, and I like things to be pretty modular, so I know what will happen.  When I use an editor, I only expect it to change the contents of the file.  It's nice that it allows me, after prompting, to save to a read-only file, and I appreciate it sometimes, but I wouldn't mind if it didn't.

                                           I'll admit that I'm somewhat torn in my opinions about protecting barely competent users from themselves.  Throughout my long experience with computers, that's mostly the way I learned, by destroying things.  I learned things like backing up, not assuming things when the consequences matter, etc.

                                          Now, if it were Windows, maybe I would expect the handholding.  But I've messed up Windows in the past, too.  :)

                                          Regards,

                                          Marty Fried

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                                        • porphyry5
                                          ... Apparently there is no culprit. After creating the file as I described, I returned vimrc to its place, preparatory to testing each individual entry.
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 5, 2012
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                                            On Jan 4, 1:28 pm, Christian Brabandt <cbli...@...> wrote:
                                            > Hi Graham!
                                            >
                                            > On Mi, 04 Jan 2012, Graham Lawrence wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > My apologies to all.  It is something in my vimrc.  Without that, vim
                                            > > creates and edits on ntfs without complaint.  My thanks to Joan Miquel
                                            > > Torres Rigo for the suggestion.
                                            >
                                            > What is the culprit?

                                            Apparently there is no culprit. After creating the file as I
                                            described, I returned vimrc to its place, preparatory to testing each
                                            individual entry. Repetitive drudgery is not to my taste, so rather
                                            than get down to it I decided to do a little clutching at straws.
                                            Went back to the buffer of the file created on the ntfs drive, added
                                            an "a" to it and issued a write command, which executed without
                                            incident. Similarly I created another new file on the drive.

                                            I have no explanation, and I'm not about to look for one.
                                            >
                                            > regards,
                                            > Christian
                                            > --
                                            > Ist mein Fleisch willig, kann Dein Geist noch so schwach sein.

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