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Re: How do define a default highlight for none-linked group?

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  • Ben Schmidt
    ... I think it s OK if the mail is sent in UTF-8. If it s sent in some other encoding, Google Groups tries to convert it to UTF-8 and botches it up. But if it
    Message 1 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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      On 2/05/11 6:41 PM, Christian Brabandt wrote:
      > On Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28 am, Ben Schmidt wrote:
      >> I have no idea how they could have got the conversion so wrong, when
      >> it is so beautifully declared, but there you go. Computers! Pfff!
      >
      > That has been mentioned before. See the thread starting at:
      > http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/282220b092f894f5
      > and
      > http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/1d2384d110b4fc1b
      >
      > It seems, Google groups is broken. Not only does it usually not display
      > umlauts (it leaves them out in German groups and makes it sometimes
      > really hard to read), it also mangles them when processing the mails.
      >
      > I used to use footnotes in my mails. But google groups mangled them so
      > badly, that I don't use it in this list anymore.

      I think it's OK if the mail is sent in UTF-8. If it's sent in some other
      encoding, Google Groups tries to convert it to UTF-8 and botches it up.
      But if it is in UTF-8 to start with, it's OK. I guess this means if you
      go into your mail client settings and set your default encoding to be
      UTF-8, you will probably rarely have problems (and most correspondents
      will be using software capable of reading UTF-8 these days, too, so you
      shouldn't lose much communicability).

      Ben.



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    • Tony Mechelynck
      ... Hm. I read Google Groups (except vim_mac where I use Abridged Email and, if necessary, the Google Groups web interface) by setting them to Email then
      Message 2 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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        On 02/05/11 10:51, Ben Schmidt wrote:
        > On 2/05/11 6:41 PM, Christian Brabandt wrote:
        >> On Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28 am, Ben Schmidt wrote:
        >>> I have no idea how they could have got the conversion so wrong, when
        >>> it is so beautifully declared, but there you go. Computers! Pfff!
        >>
        >> That has been mentioned before. See the thread starting at:
        >> http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/282220b092f894f5
        >> and
        >> http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/1d2384d110b4fc1b
        >>
        >> It seems, Google groups is broken. Not only does it usually not display
        >> umlauts (it leaves them out in German groups and makes it sometimes
        >> really hard to read), it also mangles them when processing the mails.
        >>
        >> I used to use footnotes in my mails. But google groups mangled them so
        >> badly, that I don't use it in this list anymore.
        >
        > I think it's OK if the mail is sent in UTF-8. If it's sent in some other
        > encoding, Google Groups tries to convert it to UTF-8 and botches it up.
        > But if it is in UTF-8 to start with, it's OK. I guess this means if you
        > go into your mail client settings and set your default encoding to be
        > UTF-8, you will probably rarely have problems (and most correspondents
        > will be using software capable of reading UTF-8 these days, too, so you
        > shouldn't lose much communicability).
        >
        > Ben.
        >
        >
        >

        Hm. I read Google Groups (except vim_mac where I use "Abridged Email"
        and, if necessary, the Google Groups web interface) by setting them to
        "Email" then getting that mail from the gmail.com POP3 server by means
        of a "classical" email client (I use SeaMonkey; Thunderbird or probably
        Opera or Outlook Express would work just as well).

        That "first" "naïve" message of yours arrived here with

        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
        Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

        and correct 8-bit Latin1 content; so it seems that in my case, Google
        left the message well enough alone even though it transited via both
        googlegroups.com and gmail.com

        Maybe one of the mail routers on the way to you does not declare itself
        8bit-capable and the one before that botches the conversion to
        quoted-printable? Yet ISO-8859-1 to UTF-8 and 8bit to quoted-printable
        ought to be both rather trivial. Oh well, one distracted programmer is
        enough to get any number of stupid computers to botch the simplest of
        jobs (I know, I used to be a programmer myself) so testcases are needed
        even for the silliest errors.


        Best regards,
        Tony.
        --
        hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
        82. AT&T names you Customer of the Month for the third consecutive time.

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      • Ben Schmidt
        ... I suspect that since you were CCed, you received a copy of the message directly at Gmail, and the mangled one that went through Groups was discarded (as
        Message 3 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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          > That "first" "naïve" message of yours arrived here with
          >
          > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
          > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
          >
          > and correct 8-bit Latin1 content; so it seems that in my case, Google
          > left the message well enough alone even though it transited via both
          > googlegroups.com and gmail.com

          I suspect that since you were CCed, you received a copy of the message
          directly at Gmail, and the mangled one that went through Groups was
          discarded (as Gmail recognises duplicate messages and at the very least
          collapses them, I believe). Or did you see both copies, and were they
          the same? Maybe check the Received headers to double-check the message
          went through groups, not directly to Gmail, if that distinction is easy
          to make (it should be, I think).

          The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
          Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
          like that, this message can serve as another test case.

          Ben.



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        • Tony Mechelynck
          ... No, I got only one copy. Let me see what its Received-lines say... (latest first, remember?) ... Ah, so you re right: this seems to be the copy that went
          Message 4 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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            On 03/05/11 03:40, Ben Schmidt wrote:
            >> That "first" "naïve" message of yours arrived here with
            >>
            >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
            >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
            >>
            >> and correct 8-bit Latin1 content; so it seems that in my case, Google
            >> left the message well enough alone even though it transited via both
            >> googlegroups.com and gmail.com
            >
            > I suspect that since you were CCed, you received a copy of the message
            > directly at Gmail, and the mangled one that went through Groups was
            > discarded (as Gmail recognises duplicate messages and at the very least
            > collapses them, I believe). Or did you see both copies, and were they
            > the same? Maybe check the Received headers to double-check the message
            > went through groups, not directly to Gmail, if that distinction is easy
            > to make (it should be, I think).
            >
            > The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
            > Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
            > like that, this message can serve as another test case.
            >
            > Ben.
            >
            >
            >
            >

            No, I got only one copy. Let me see what its Received-lines say...
            (latest first, remember?)

            > Received: by 10.229.42.5 with SMTP id q5cs286259qce;
            > Sun, 1 May 2011 16:55:34 -0700 (PDT)
            > Received: by 10.42.159.199 with SMTP id m7mr2726351icx.78.1304294133974;
            > Sun, 01 May 2011 16:55:33 -0700 (PDT)
            > Return-Path: <mail_ben_schmidt@...>
            > Received: from nm27.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (nm27.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com [98.139.52.224])
            > by mx.google.com with SMTP id ec14si4843850icb.122.2011.05.01.16.55.32;
            > Sun, 01 May 2011 16:55:32 -0700 (PDT)
            > Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 98.139.52.224 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mail_ben_schmidt@...) client-ip=98.139.52.224;
            > Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 98.139.52.224 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mail_ben_schmidt@...) smtp.mail=mail_ben_schmidt@...; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@...
            > Received: from [98.139.52.196] by nm27.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2011 23:55:31 -0000
            > Received: from [98.139.52.184] by tm9.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2011 23:55:31 -0000
            > Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1067.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2011 23:55:31 -0000
            > X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 771643.38199.bm@...
            > Received: (qmail 22636 invoked from network); 1 May 2011 23:55:31 -0000

            Ah, so you're right: this seems to be the copy that went straight from
            Yahoo to Gmail, and the one that transited through GoogleGroups never
            made it into my Inbox, even though the "To: vim_use@..."
            triggered my mail filters to get this message out of Inbox and into the
            Vim List folder.


            Best regards,
            Tony.
            --
            "Somewhere", said Father Vittorini, "did Blake not speak of the
            Machineries of Joy? That is, did not God promote environments, then
            intimidate these Natures by provoking the existence of flesh, toy men
            and women, such as are we all? And thus happily sent forth, at our
            best, with good grace and fine wit, on calm noons, in fair climes, are
            we not God's Machineries of Joy?"

            "If Blake said that", said Father Brian, "he never lived in Dublin."
            -- R. Bradbury, "The Machineries of Joy"

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          • Ben Schmidt
            ... Of course, it goes without saying that Groups broke with tradition and didn t mangle that one. Maybe only some Groups servers have the bug, or it s
            Message 5 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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              >> The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
              >> Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
              >> like that, this message can serve as another test case.

              Of course, it goes without saying that Groups broke with tradition and
              didn't mangle that one. Maybe only some Groups servers have the bug, or
              it's something more complicated that triggers it. How annoying.

              > Ah, so you're right: this seems to be the copy that went straight from
              > Yahoo to Gmail, and the one that transited through GoogleGroups never
              > made it into my Inbox, even though the "To: vim_use@..."
              > triggered my mail filters to get this message out of Inbox and into
              > the Vim List folder.

              Well, that at least explains why you didn't see the problem the first
              time around, even if we don't know when exactly Groups breaks....

              Ben.



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            • Bram Moolenaar
              ... I asked someone, and he says that it looks like the problem is caused by yahoo.com.au. Perhaps it depends on the way you route the message? --
              Message 6 of 22 , May 10, 2011
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                Ben Schmidt wrote:

                > >> The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
                > >> Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
                > >> like that, this message can serve as another test case.
                >
                > Of course, it goes without saying that Groups broke with tradition and
                > didn't mangle that one. Maybe only some Groups servers have the bug, or
                > it's something more complicated that triggers it. How annoying.
                >
                > > Ah, so you're right: this seems to be the copy that went straight from
                > > Yahoo to Gmail, and the one that transited through GoogleGroups never
                > > made it into my Inbox, even though the "To: vim_use@..."
                > > triggered my mail filters to get this message out of Inbox and into
                > > the Vim List folder.
                >
                > Well, that at least explains why you didn't see the problem the first
                > time around, even if we don't know when exactly Groups breaks....

                I asked someone, and he says that it looks like the problem is caused by
                yahoo.com.au. Perhaps it depends on the way you route the message?

                --
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                seems like only a few seconds later, your sister runs past you to
                catch her 7am school bus.

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              • Ben Schmidt
                ... I won t say it s not Yahoo, but that seems unlikely to me, because it has happened with mail from other origins, and I can t think of anything that would
                Message 7 of 22 , May 10, 2011
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                  >>>> The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
                  >>>> Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
                  >>>> like that, this message can serve as another test case.
                  >>
                  >> Of course, it goes without saying that Groups broke with tradition and
                  >> didn't mangle that one. Maybe only some Groups servers have the bug, or
                  >> it's something more complicated that triggers it. How annoying.
                  >>
                  >>> Ah, so you're right: this seems to be the copy that went straight from
                  >>> Yahoo to Gmail, and the one that transited through GoogleGroups never
                  >>> made it into my Inbox, even though the "To: vim_use@..."
                  >>> triggered my mail filters to get this message out of Inbox and into
                  >>> the Vim List folder.
                  >>
                  >> Well, that at least explains why you didn't see the problem the first
                  >> time around, even if we don't know when exactly Groups breaks....
                  >
                  > I asked someone, and he says that it looks like the problem is caused by
                  > yahoo.com.au. Perhaps it depends on the way you route the message?

                  I won't say it's not Yahoo, but that seems unlikely to me, because it
                  has happened with mail from other origins, and I can't think of anything
                  that would cause Yahoo to do an encoding conversion when communicating
                  with some remote servers and not others (or indeed at all). I give my
                  mail to Yahoo using SMTP, so no browser issues are in play, and Yahoo
                  doesn't even seem to do content filtering to append an ad (amazing!),
                  but even if it did, it would be hard to explain why character set
                  conversion would happen for some destinations and not others. AFAIK,
                  nothing a destination mail server could report would cause an origin
                  server to do a character set conversion. Transfer encoding, yes, but not
                  character set. It seems more likely that some of Groups' jiggerypokery
                  has a bug in it; after all, groups does a lot more than just deliver
                  mail--it prepares it for web archives and so on as well, and character
                  set issues definitely come into play there, so need to be dealt with.

                  Not sure how we can track this down further. It only happens sometimes,
                  so it may be that only some of Yahoo's or Groups' servers are affected.

                  Naïvely,

                  Ben.



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