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Re: How do define a default highlight for none-linked group?

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  • Tony Mechelynck
    ... What about hi default CursorIM term=reverse ctermbg=green ctermfg=yellow gui=bold guibg=green guifg=yellow I don t have a help tag but see line 4087 of
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 29, 2011
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      On 29/04/11 04:00, pansz wrote:
      > hi vimmers,
      >
      > for linked group we can use :hi default link to set a default value, for
      > none-linked group we can't.
      >
      > Suppose my script want to set the default value highlight group
      > CursorIM. i.e. if user color scheme has set the hi CursorIM, let it be,
      > if user color scheme has not set the highlight, my script set it to a
      > specific value.
      >
      > Is it possible? or is it possible to check in script whether a highlight
      > group already defined or not?

      What about
      hi default CursorIM term=reverse ctermbg=green ctermfg=yellow
      \ gui=bold guibg=green guifg=yellow

      I don't have a help tag but see line 4087 of syntax.txt (2011 Apr 06 for
      Vim 7.3).


      Best regards,
      Tony.
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    • Ben Schmidt
      ... Well, the default part is explained at :help :hi-default which applies not just to :hi-link, which is closest to it, and which the examples demonstrate,
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 29, 2011
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        On 30/04/11 9:52 AM, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
        > On 29/04/11 04:00, pansz wrote:
        >> hi vimmers,
        >>
        >> for linked group we can use :hi default link to set a default value, for
        >> none-linked group we can't.
        >>
        >> Suppose my script want to set the default value highlight group
        >> CursorIM. i.e. if user color scheme has set the hi CursorIM, let it be,
        >> if user color scheme has not set the highlight, my script set it to a
        >> specific value.
        >>
        >> Is it possible? or is it possible to check in script whether a highlight
        >> group already defined or not?
        >
        > What about
        > hi default CursorIM term=reverse ctermbg=green ctermfg=yellow
        > \ gui=bold guibg=green guifg=yellow
        >
        > I don't have a help tag but see line 4087 of syntax.txt (2011 Apr 06
        > for Vim 7.3).

        Well, the 'default' part is explained at :help :hi-default which applies
        not just to :hi-link, which is closest to it, and which the examples
        demonstrate, but it also applies to :hi with settings (as [default] is
        present in the syntax description, and there is a cross-reference to
        :help :highlight-default, a little bit below :help :colo).

        However, it doesn't really help in this case. CursorIM, being a built-in
        highlight group, never has "no settings" or "doesn't exist", unless you
        explicitly do :hi clear CursorIM or :hi CursorIM NONE. So using
        "default" to define CursorIM will be useless unless you expect your user
        to do one of those two things above if they want to get your default
        highlighting.

        Ben.



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      • Tony Mechelynck
        ... E411: highlight group not found: CursorIM The same happens with vim -N -u NONE or with vim -u /usr/local/share/vim/vim73/vimrc_example.vim with or
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 29, 2011
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          On 30/04/11 03:35, Ben Schmidt wrote:
          > On 30/04/11 9:52 AM, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
          >> On 29/04/11 04:00, pansz wrote:
          >>> hi vimmers,
          >>>
          >>> for linked group we can use :hi default link to set a default value, for
          >>> none-linked group we can't.
          >>>
          >>> Suppose my script want to set the default value highlight group
          >>> CursorIM. i.e. if user color scheme has set the hi CursorIM, let it be,
          >>> if user color scheme has not set the highlight, my script set it to a
          >>> specific value.
          >>>
          >>> Is it possible? or is it possible to check in script whether a highlight
          >>> group already defined or not?
          >>
          >> What about
          >> hi default CursorIM term=reverse ctermbg=green ctermfg=yellow
          >> \ gui=bold guibg=green guifg=yellow
          >>
          >> I don't have a help tag but see line 4087 of syntax.txt (2011 Apr 06
          >> for Vim 7.3).
          >
          > Well, the 'default' part is explained at :help :hi-default which applies
          > not just to :hi-link, which is closest to it, and which the examples
          > demonstrate, but it also applies to :hi with settings (as [default] is
          > present in the syntax description, and there is a cross-reference to
          > :help :highlight-default, a little bit below :help :colo).
          >
          > However, it doesn't really help in this case. CursorIM, being a built-in
          > highlight group, never has "no settings" or "doesn't exist", unless you
          > explicitly do :hi clear CursorIM or :hi CursorIM NONE. So using
          > "default" to define CursorIM will be useless unless you expect your user
          > to do one of those two things above if they want to get your default
          > highlighting.
          >
          > Ben.
          >
          >
          >
          >

          I don't do anything with it, and yet:

          :hi CursorIM
          E411: highlight group not found: CursorIM

          The same happens with "vim -N -u NONE" or with "vim -u
          /usr/local/share/vim/vim73/vimrc_example.vim" with or without --noplugin.


          Best regards,
          Tony.
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        • Ben Schmidt
          ... Interesting. When I tested, I just did :hi clear, which evidently doesn t actually clear things fully as I thought it would. Perhaps this is a bug. The
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 30, 2011
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            > I don't do anything with it, and yet:
            >
            > :hi CursorIM
            > E411: highlight group not found: CursorIM
            >
            > The same happens with "vim -N -u NONE" or with "vim -u
            > /usr/local/share/vim/vim73/vimrc_example.vim" with or without --noplugin.

            Interesting. When I tested, I just did :hi clear, which evidently
            doesn't actually clear things fully as I thought it would. Perhaps this
            is a bug.

            The result, though, is yes, that your approach using "default" will
            work, at least for CursorIM, though not for other standard highlight
            groups which are defined with defaults.

            Ben.



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          • pansz
            ... Glad to see it will work and I will try it. If it really works, I think vim help document should be updated. Currently, default is only mentioned in hi
            Message 5 of 22 , May 1, 2011
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              On Saturday, April 30, 2011 3:01:53 PM UTC+8, Ben Schmidt wrote:

              work, at least for CursorIM, though not for other standard highlight
              groups which are defined with defaults.

              The result, though, is yes, that your approach using "default" will

              Ben.

              Glad to see it will work and I will try it. If it really works, I think vim help document should be updated. Currently, "default" is only mentioned in "hi link".


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            • Tony Mechelynck
              On 01/05/11 10:01, pansz wrote: [...] ... If you had checked my first reply, you would have found at line 4087 of syntax.txt, ... Best regards, Tony. --
              Message 6 of 22 , May 1, 2011
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                On 01/05/11 10:01, pansz wrote:
                [...]
                > Currently, "default" is only mentioned in "hi link".

                If you had checked my first reply, you would have found at line 4087 of
                syntax.txt,

                :hi[ghlight] [default] {group-name} {key}={arg} ..


                Best regards,
                Tony.
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              • Ben Schmidt
                ... Yeah, well at that line in my syntax.txt (dated the same as yours, IIRC--I believe I checked against a date you provided), I find ... Which is related, I
                Message 7 of 22 , May 1, 2011
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                  On 1/05/11 9:24 PM, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
                  > On 01/05/11 10:01, pansz wrote:
                  > [...]
                  >> Currently, "default" is only mentioned in "hi link".
                  >
                  > If you had checked my first reply, you would have found at line 4087 of syntax.txt,
                  >
                  > :hi[ghlight] [default] {group-name} {key}={arg} ..

                  Yeah, well at that line in my syntax.txt (dated the same as yours,
                  IIRC--I believe I checked against a date you provided), I find

                  > the default value.

                  Which is related, I guess, but not so helpful as the line you quoted
                  above. :-)

                  Smiles,

                  Ben.



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                • Tony Mechelynck
                  ... Are you sure? My syntax.txt is dated April 6 (as shown on line 1), however the corresponding changeset (0877b8d6370e) was only committed on April 28,
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 1, 2011
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                    On 01/05/11 15:18, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                    > On 1/05/11 9:24 PM, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
                    >> On 01/05/11 10:01, pansz wrote:
                    >> [...]
                    >>> Currently, "default" is only mentioned in "hi link".
                    >>
                    >> If you had checked my first reply, you would have found at line 4087
                    >> of syntax.txt,
                    >>
                    >> :hi[ghlight] [default] {group-name} {key}={arg} ..
                    >
                    > Yeah, well at that line in my syntax.txt (dated the same as yours,
                    > IIRC--I believe I checked against a date you provided), I find

                    Are you sure? My syntax.txt is dated April 6 (as shown on line 1),
                    however the corresponding changeset (0877b8d6370e) was only committed on
                    April 28, together with a number of other runtime files changes. The
                    only patch later than that was 7.3.170 (changesets 64c3402df964 and
                    08c36bef2004), and it affects only src/testdir/Make_vms.mms (plus
                    src/version.c and .hgtags).

                    >
                    >> the default value.

                    That line is 11 lines lower here.

                    >
                    > Which is related, I guess, but not so helpful as the line you quoted
                    > above. :-)
                    >
                    > Smiles,
                    >
                    > Ben.
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    Best regards,
                    Tony.
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                  • Bee
                    ... -Bill -- You received this message from the vim_use maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to. For more information,
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 1, 2011
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                      Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechely...@...> wrote:

                      > I don't have a help tag but see line 4087 of syntax.txt (2011 Apr 06 for Vim 7.3).

                      That is also not the same line here, how about using:

                      :helpgrep :hi\[ghlight\] \[default\]

                      -Bill

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                    • Ben Schmidt
                      ... Nope. I mustn t have checked after all (or perhaps only naďvely checked the month and not the day). Mine is dated April 1. Ben. -- You received this
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 1, 2011
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                        >> Yeah, well at that line in my syntax.txt (dated the same as yours,
                        >> IIRC--I believe I checked against a date you provided), I find
                        >
                        > Are you sure? My syntax.txt is dated April 6 (as shown on line 1),

                        Nope. I mustn't have checked after all (or perhaps only naďvely checked
                        the month and not the day). Mine is dated April 1.

                        Ben.



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                      • Ben Schmidt
                        ... Take two: naïvely. Something gone wrong with encoding.... Ben. -- You received this message from the vim_use maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 1, 2011
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                          On 2/05/11 9:55 AM, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                          >>> Yeah, well at that line in my syntax.txt (dated the same as yours,
                          >>> IIRC--I believe I checked against a date you provided), I find
                          >>
                          >> Are you sure? My syntax.txt is dated April 6 (as shown on line 1),
                          >
                          > Nope. I mustn't have checked after all (or perhaps only naďvely checked
                          > the month and not the day). Mine is dated April 1.

                          Take two: naïvely. Something gone wrong with encoding....

                          Ben.



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                        • Tony Mechelynck
                          ... Somehow the post (in 8bit Latin1) to which I m replying here (in UTF-8) had naïvely with a correct i-diaeresis (0xEF in Latin1), but the next one (in
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 1, 2011
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                            On 02/05/11 01:55, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                            >>> Yeah, well at that line in my syntax.txt (dated the same as yours,
                            >>> IIRC--I believe I checked against a date you provided), I find
                            >>
                            >> Are you sure? My syntax.txt is dated April 6 (as shown on line 1),
                            >
                            > Nope. I mustn't have checked after all (or perhaps only naïvely checked
                            > the month and not the day). Mine is dated April 1.
                            >
                            > Ben.

                            Somehow the post (in 8bit Latin1) to which I'm replying here (in UTF-8)
                            had "naïvely" with a correct i-diaeresis (0xEF in Latin1), but the next
                            one (in 8bit UTF-8) quoted it as "naďvely" (with 0xC4 0x8F = U+010F
                            SMALL LATIN LETTER D WITH CARON) then printed it correctly below the
                            quote (0xC3 0xAF = U+00EF). I don't know what happened when you tried to
                            read your own message. Maybe you tried to view it in ISO-8859-2 since in
                            that encoding, 0xEF means d-caron.


                            Best regards,
                            Tony.
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                            Corollaries:
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                            (2) The experiment may be considered a success if no more than
                            50% of the observed measurements must be discarded to
                            obtain a correspondence with the theory.

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                          • Ben Schmidt
                            ... Google Groups messed it up. It left here as: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit naïvely but then
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 1, 2011
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                              On 2/05/11 1:27 PM, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
                              > On 02/05/11 01:55, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                              >>>> Yeah, well at that line in my syntax.txt (dated the same as yours,
                              >>>> IIRC--I believe I checked against a date you provided), I find
                              >>>
                              >>> Are you sure? My syntax.txt is dated April 6 (as shown on line 1),
                              >>
                              >> Nope. I mustn't have checked after all (or perhaps only naïvely checked
                              >> the month and not the day). Mine is dated April 1.
                              >>
                              >> Ben.
                              >
                              > Somehow the post (in 8bit Latin1) to which I'm replying here (in UTF-8) had
                              > "naïvely" with a correct i-diaeresis (0xEF in Latin1), but the next one (in 8bit
                              > UTF-8) quoted it as "naďvely" (with 0xC4 0x8F = U+010F SMALL LATIN LETTER D WITH
                              > CARON) then printed it correctly below the quote (0xC3 0xAF = U+00EF). I don't
                              > know what happened when you tried to read your own message. Maybe you tried to
                              > view it in ISO-8859-2 since in that encoding, 0xEF means d-caron.

                              Google Groups messed it up. It left here as:

                              Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
                              Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
                              naïvely

                              but then arrived from the list as:

                              Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
                              Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
                              na=C4=8Fvely

                              I have no idea how they could have got the conversion so wrong, when it is so
                              beautifully declared, but there you go. Computers! Pfff!

                              Ben.


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                            • Christian Brabandt
                              ... That has been mentioned before. See the thread starting at: http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/282220b092f894f5 and
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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                                On Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28 am, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                                > I have no idea how they could have got the conversion so wrong, when
                                > it is so beautifully declared, but there you go. Computers! Pfff!

                                That has been mentioned before. See the thread starting at:
                                http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/282220b092f894f5
                                and
                                http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/1d2384d110b4fc1b

                                It seems, Google groups is broken. Not only does it usually not display
                                umlauts (it leaves them out in German groups and makes it sometimes
                                really hard to read), it also mangles them when processing the mails.

                                I used to use footnotes in my mails. But google groups mangled them so
                                badly, that I don't use it in this list anymore.

                                regards,
                                Christian

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                              • Ben Schmidt
                                ... I think it s OK if the mail is sent in UTF-8. If it s sent in some other encoding, Google Groups tries to convert it to UTF-8 and botches it up. But if it
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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                                  On 2/05/11 6:41 PM, Christian Brabandt wrote:
                                  > On Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28 am, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                                  >> I have no idea how they could have got the conversion so wrong, when
                                  >> it is so beautifully declared, but there you go. Computers! Pfff!
                                  >
                                  > That has been mentioned before. See the thread starting at:
                                  > http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/282220b092f894f5
                                  > and
                                  > http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/1d2384d110b4fc1b
                                  >
                                  > It seems, Google groups is broken. Not only does it usually not display
                                  > umlauts (it leaves them out in German groups and makes it sometimes
                                  > really hard to read), it also mangles them when processing the mails.
                                  >
                                  > I used to use footnotes in my mails. But google groups mangled them so
                                  > badly, that I don't use it in this list anymore.

                                  I think it's OK if the mail is sent in UTF-8. If it's sent in some other
                                  encoding, Google Groups tries to convert it to UTF-8 and botches it up.
                                  But if it is in UTF-8 to start with, it's OK. I guess this means if you
                                  go into your mail client settings and set your default encoding to be
                                  UTF-8, you will probably rarely have problems (and most correspondents
                                  will be using software capable of reading UTF-8 these days, too, so you
                                  shouldn't lose much communicability).

                                  Ben.



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                                • Tony Mechelynck
                                  ... Hm. I read Google Groups (except vim_mac where I use Abridged Email and, if necessary, the Google Groups web interface) by setting them to Email then
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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                                    On 02/05/11 10:51, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                                    > On 2/05/11 6:41 PM, Christian Brabandt wrote:
                                    >> On Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28 am, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                                    >>> I have no idea how they could have got the conversion so wrong, when
                                    >>> it is so beautifully declared, but there you go. Computers! Pfff!
                                    >>
                                    >> That has been mentioned before. See the thread starting at:
                                    >> http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/282220b092f894f5
                                    >> and
                                    >> http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/msg/1d2384d110b4fc1b
                                    >>
                                    >> It seems, Google groups is broken. Not only does it usually not display
                                    >> umlauts (it leaves them out in German groups and makes it sometimes
                                    >> really hard to read), it also mangles them when processing the mails.
                                    >>
                                    >> I used to use footnotes in my mails. But google groups mangled them so
                                    >> badly, that I don't use it in this list anymore.
                                    >
                                    > I think it's OK if the mail is sent in UTF-8. If it's sent in some other
                                    > encoding, Google Groups tries to convert it to UTF-8 and botches it up.
                                    > But if it is in UTF-8 to start with, it's OK. I guess this means if you
                                    > go into your mail client settings and set your default encoding to be
                                    > UTF-8, you will probably rarely have problems (and most correspondents
                                    > will be using software capable of reading UTF-8 these days, too, so you
                                    > shouldn't lose much communicability).
                                    >
                                    > Ben.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    Hm. I read Google Groups (except vim_mac where I use "Abridged Email"
                                    and, if necessary, the Google Groups web interface) by setting them to
                                    "Email" then getting that mail from the gmail.com POP3 server by means
                                    of a "classical" email client (I use SeaMonkey; Thunderbird or probably
                                    Opera or Outlook Express would work just as well).

                                    That "first" "naïve" message of yours arrived here with

                                    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
                                    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

                                    and correct 8-bit Latin1 content; so it seems that in my case, Google
                                    left the message well enough alone even though it transited via both
                                    googlegroups.com and gmail.com

                                    Maybe one of the mail routers on the way to you does not declare itself
                                    8bit-capable and the one before that botches the conversion to
                                    quoted-printable? Yet ISO-8859-1 to UTF-8 and 8bit to quoted-printable
                                    ought to be both rather trivial. Oh well, one distracted programmer is
                                    enough to get any number of stupid computers to botch the simplest of
                                    jobs (I know, I used to be a programmer myself) so testcases are needed
                                    even for the silliest errors.


                                    Best regards,
                                    Tony.
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                                  • Ben Schmidt
                                    ... I suspect that since you were CCed, you received a copy of the message directly at Gmail, and the mangled one that went through Groups was discarded (as
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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                                      > That "first" "naïve" message of yours arrived here with
                                      >
                                      > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
                                      > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
                                      >
                                      > and correct 8-bit Latin1 content; so it seems that in my case, Google
                                      > left the message well enough alone even though it transited via both
                                      > googlegroups.com and gmail.com

                                      I suspect that since you were CCed, you received a copy of the message
                                      directly at Gmail, and the mangled one that went through Groups was
                                      discarded (as Gmail recognises duplicate messages and at the very least
                                      collapses them, I believe). Or did you see both copies, and were they
                                      the same? Maybe check the Received headers to double-check the message
                                      went through groups, not directly to Gmail, if that distinction is easy
                                      to make (it should be, I think).

                                      The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
                                      Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
                                      like that, this message can serve as another test case.

                                      Ben.



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                                    • Tony Mechelynck
                                      ... No, I got only one copy. Let me see what its Received-lines say... (latest first, remember?) ... Ah, so you re right: this seems to be the copy that went
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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                                        On 03/05/11 03:40, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                                        >> That "first" "naïve" message of yours arrived here with
                                        >>
                                        >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
                                        >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
                                        >>
                                        >> and correct 8-bit Latin1 content; so it seems that in my case, Google
                                        >> left the message well enough alone even though it transited via both
                                        >> googlegroups.com and gmail.com
                                        >
                                        > I suspect that since you were CCed, you received a copy of the message
                                        > directly at Gmail, and the mangled one that went through Groups was
                                        > discarded (as Gmail recognises duplicate messages and at the very least
                                        > collapses them, I believe). Or did you see both copies, and were they
                                        > the same? Maybe check the Received headers to double-check the message
                                        > went through groups, not directly to Gmail, if that distinction is easy
                                        > to make (it should be, I think).
                                        >
                                        > The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
                                        > Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
                                        > like that, this message can serve as another test case.
                                        >
                                        > Ben.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        No, I got only one copy. Let me see what its Received-lines say...
                                        (latest first, remember?)

                                        > Received: by 10.229.42.5 with SMTP id q5cs286259qce;
                                        > Sun, 1 May 2011 16:55:34 -0700 (PDT)
                                        > Received: by 10.42.159.199 with SMTP id m7mr2726351icx.78.1304294133974;
                                        > Sun, 01 May 2011 16:55:33 -0700 (PDT)
                                        > Return-Path: <mail_ben_schmidt@...>
                                        > Received: from nm27.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (nm27.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com [98.139.52.224])
                                        > by mx.google.com with SMTP id ec14si4843850icb.122.2011.05.01.16.55.32;
                                        > Sun, 01 May 2011 16:55:32 -0700 (PDT)
                                        > Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 98.139.52.224 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mail_ben_schmidt@...) client-ip=98.139.52.224;
                                        > Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 98.139.52.224 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mail_ben_schmidt@...) smtp.mail=mail_ben_schmidt@...; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@...
                                        > Received: from [98.139.52.196] by nm27.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2011 23:55:31 -0000
                                        > Received: from [98.139.52.184] by tm9.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2011 23:55:31 -0000
                                        > Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1067.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2011 23:55:31 -0000
                                        > X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 771643.38199.bm@...
                                        > Received: (qmail 22636 invoked from network); 1 May 2011 23:55:31 -0000

                                        Ah, so you're right: this seems to be the copy that went straight from
                                        Yahoo to Gmail, and the one that transited through GoogleGroups never
                                        made it into my Inbox, even though the "To: vim_use@..."
                                        triggered my mail filters to get this message out of Inbox and into the
                                        Vim List folder.


                                        Best regards,
                                        Tony.
                                        --
                                        "Somewhere", said Father Vittorini, "did Blake not speak of the
                                        Machineries of Joy? That is, did not God promote environments, then
                                        intimidate these Natures by provoking the existence of flesh, toy men
                                        and women, such as are we all? And thus happily sent forth, at our
                                        best, with good grace and fine wit, on calm noons, in fair climes, are
                                        we not God's Machineries of Joy?"

                                        "If Blake said that", said Father Brian, "he never lived in Dublin."
                                        -- R. Bradbury, "The Machineries of Joy"

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                                      • Ben Schmidt
                                        ... Of course, it goes without saying that Groups broke with tradition and didn t mangle that one. Maybe only some Groups servers have the bug, or it s
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 2, 2011
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                                          >> The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
                                          >> Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
                                          >> like that, this message can serve as another test case.

                                          Of course, it goes without saying that Groups broke with tradition and
                                          didn't mangle that one. Maybe only some Groups servers have the bug, or
                                          it's something more complicated that triggers it. How annoying.

                                          > Ah, so you're right: this seems to be the copy that went straight from
                                          > Yahoo to Gmail, and the one that transited through GoogleGroups never
                                          > made it into my Inbox, even though the "To: vim_use@..."
                                          > triggered my mail filters to get this message out of Inbox and into
                                          > the Vim List folder.

                                          Well, that at least explains why you didn't see the problem the first
                                          time around, even if we don't know when exactly Groups breaks....

                                          Ben.



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                                        • Bram Moolenaar
                                          ... I asked someone, and he says that it looks like the problem is caused by yahoo.com.au. Perhaps it depends on the way you route the message? --
                                          Message 20 of 22 , May 10, 2011
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                                            Ben Schmidt wrote:

                                            > >> The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
                                            > >> Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
                                            > >> like that, this message can serve as another test case.
                                            >
                                            > Of course, it goes without saying that Groups broke with tradition and
                                            > didn't mangle that one. Maybe only some Groups servers have the bug, or
                                            > it's something more complicated that triggers it. How annoying.
                                            >
                                            > > Ah, so you're right: this seems to be the copy that went straight from
                                            > > Yahoo to Gmail, and the one that transited through GoogleGroups never
                                            > > made it into my Inbox, even though the "To: vim_use@..."
                                            > > triggered my mail filters to get this message out of Inbox and into
                                            > > the Vim List folder.
                                            >
                                            > Well, that at least explains why you didn't see the problem the first
                                            > time around, even if we don't know when exactly Groups breaks....

                                            I asked someone, and he says that it looks like the problem is caused by
                                            yahoo.com.au. Perhaps it depends on the way you route the message?

                                            --
                                            hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
                                            65. The last time you looked at the clock it was 11:30pm, and in what
                                            seems like only a few seconds later, your sister runs past you to
                                            catch her 7am school bus.

                                            /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
                                            /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
                                            \\\ an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org ///
                                            \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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                                          • Ben Schmidt
                                            ... I won t say it s not Yahoo, but that seems unlikely to me, because it has happened with mail from other origins, and I can t think of anything that would
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 10, 2011
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                                              >>>> The same might happen to this message. At this stage in composition,
                                              >>>> Thunderbird is showing latin1 as the encoding; if it indeed goes out
                                              >>>> like that, this message can serve as another test case.
                                              >>
                                              >> Of course, it goes without saying that Groups broke with tradition and
                                              >> didn't mangle that one. Maybe only some Groups servers have the bug, or
                                              >> it's something more complicated that triggers it. How annoying.
                                              >>
                                              >>> Ah, so you're right: this seems to be the copy that went straight from
                                              >>> Yahoo to Gmail, and the one that transited through GoogleGroups never
                                              >>> made it into my Inbox, even though the "To: vim_use@..."
                                              >>> triggered my mail filters to get this message out of Inbox and into
                                              >>> the Vim List folder.
                                              >>
                                              >> Well, that at least explains why you didn't see the problem the first
                                              >> time around, even if we don't know when exactly Groups breaks....
                                              >
                                              > I asked someone, and he says that it looks like the problem is caused by
                                              > yahoo.com.au. Perhaps it depends on the way you route the message?

                                              I won't say it's not Yahoo, but that seems unlikely to me, because it
                                              has happened with mail from other origins, and I can't think of anything
                                              that would cause Yahoo to do an encoding conversion when communicating
                                              with some remote servers and not others (or indeed at all). I give my
                                              mail to Yahoo using SMTP, so no browser issues are in play, and Yahoo
                                              doesn't even seem to do content filtering to append an ad (amazing!),
                                              but even if it did, it would be hard to explain why character set
                                              conversion would happen for some destinations and not others. AFAIK,
                                              nothing a destination mail server could report would cause an origin
                                              server to do a character set conversion. Transfer encoding, yes, but not
                                              character set. It seems more likely that some of Groups' jiggerypokery
                                              has a bug in it; after all, groups does a lot more than just deliver
                                              mail--it prepares it for web archives and so on as well, and character
                                              set issues definitely come into play there, so need to be dealt with.

                                              Not sure how we can track this down further. It only happens sometimes,
                                              so it may be that only some of Yahoo's or Groups' servers are affected.

                                              Naïvely,

                                              Ben.



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