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Re: Starting an online VIM vs Other Text Editors battle.. anyone interested?

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  • Nat Williams
    ... When has the which editor is best debate ever actually worked out well? This sounds like just another way to rehash the same tired arguments that have
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2, 2010
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      On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:17 AM, tommed <tom.medhurst@...> wrote:
      Hi Guys!

      As a VIM user myself, I am hoping we can get some of our most elite
      users to participate in an online VIM vs EMACS vs
      INSERT_TEXT_EDITOR_HERE battle site?

      I have posted a few details here: http://www.tommed.co.uk/?p=70

      Please let me know if you are mildly interested
      tommed


      When has the "which editor is best" debate ever actually worked out well?  This sounds like just another way to rehash the same tired arguments that have been going on for decades.

      That said, I think there's actually something here.  Instead of trying to determine which is "best", why not showcase alternate editors' methods as a way of helping those looking to switch (or even just looking to become more agnostic)?  Make a resource, not a battleground.  Seeing an emacs video that's a few seconds shorter isn't going to change my mind, but it might help me understand what it's all about.

      Nat

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    • Charles Campbell
      ... It seems to me that its simply a case of more strokes for different folks . :) Regards, Chip Campbell -- You received this message from the vim_use
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 2, 2010
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        Nat Williams wrote:
        > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:17 AM, tommed <tom.medhurst@...
        > <mailto:tom.medhurst@...>> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Guys!
        >
        > As a VIM user myself, I am hoping we can get some of our most elite
        > users to participate in an online VIM vs EMACS vs
        > INSERT_TEXT_EDITOR_HERE battle site?
        >
        > I have posted a few details here: http://www.tommed.co.uk/?p=70
        >
        > Please let me know if you are mildly interested
        > tommed
        >
        >
        > When has the "which editor is best" debate ever actually worked out
        > well? This sounds like just another way to rehash the same tired
        > arguments that have been going on for decades.
        >
        > That said, I think there's actually something here. Instead of trying
        > to determine which is "best", why not showcase alternate editors'
        > methods as a way of helping those looking to switch (or even just
        > looking to become more agnostic)? Make a resource, not a
        > battleground. Seeing an emacs video that's a few seconds shorter
        > isn't going to change my mind, but it might help me understand what
        > it's all about.
        >
        It seems to me that its simply a case of "more strokes for different
        folks". :)

        Regards,
        Chip Campbell

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      • tommed
        Hey Nat, I guess the undertones of the site is that everyone is a winner and is a great showcase of showing what these awesome text editors are capable of!
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 2, 2010
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          Hey Nat,

          I guess the undertones of the site is that "everyone is a winner" and
          is a great showcase of showing what these awesome text editors are
          capable of!

          When I started showing interest in using a "proper" text editor, there
          was a myriad of flame wars of non-sensical, non-logical arguments
          which plagued the forums. I understood that using one of these *could*
          save me time, but there were no videos of amazingly talented people
          using these editors. I *needed* something to inspire me to spend my
          time learning it, but I never got it. I just had to take the risk, and
          now I'm glad I did!

          I wanted to mask the sentiments under a pseudo-competitive guise as
          people naturally respond better to competition then the "everyone is a
          winner" philosophy. It obviously didn't wash with you or
          @CharlesCampbell as you have probably been witnesses to many idle
          rantings of the "fan boys".

          Hopefully now you can see my proposal is for the right reasons, and
          will be a part of the spirit of competition for the right reasons?
          Do I have two interests? :)

          Best Wishes,
          tommed


          On Aug 2, 7:22 pm, Nat Williams <nat.willi...@...> wrote:
          > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:17 AM, tommed <tom.medhu...@...> wrote:
          > > Hi Guys!
          >
          > > As a VIM user myself, I am hoping we can get some of our most elite
          > > users to participate in an online VIM vs EMACS vs
          > > INSERT_TEXT_EDITOR_HERE battle site?
          >
          > > I have posted a few details here:http://www.tommed.co.uk/?p=70
          >
          > > Please let me know if you are mildly interested
          > > tommed
          >
          > When has the "which editor is best" debate ever actually worked out well?
          >  This sounds like just another way to rehash the same tired arguments that
          > have been going on for decades.
          >
          > That said, I think there's actually something here.  Instead of trying to
          > determine which is "best", why not showcase alternate editors' methods as a
          > way of helping those looking to switch (or even just looking to become more
          > agnostic)?  Make a resource, not a battleground.  Seeing an emacs video
          > that's a few seconds shorter isn't going to change my mind, but it might
          > help me understand what it's all about.
          >
          > Nat

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        • Marc Weber
          ... I added a comment. I think you should drop Vim vs Emacs. Call it who can perform fastest - choose your favourite tool . Then we all can learn by watching.
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 2, 2010
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            Excerpts from tommed's message of Mon Aug 02 18:17:14 +0200 2010:
            > Hi Guys!
            >
            > As a VIM user myself, I am hoping we can get some of our most elite
            > users to participate in an online VIM vs EMACS vs
            > INSERT_TEXT_EDITOR_HERE battle site?

            I added a comment.
            I think you should drop Vim vs Emacs.
            Call it "who can perform fastest - choose your favourite tool".
            Then we all can learn by watching.

            Vim vs Emacs is broken by design because you can extend both.
            Eg is it allowed using tools like Eclim?

            What about additional scripting languages such as Ruby, Perl, ..?

            Without clarifying the rules (eg :You have to use latest stable Vim /
            GNU / X Emacs ..) with or without custom scrpts this must fail.

            Marc Weber

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          • tommed
            Great feedback, many thanks! I have just updated the site, taking your excellent suggestions on board. I think you ve all hit the nail on the head with
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 3, 2010
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              Great feedback, many thanks!
              I have just updated the site, taking your excellent suggestions on
              board.

              I think you've all hit "the nail on the head" with regard to the
              general idea of the site; I thought I would spark more interest by
              setting the theme of the site as the official "VIM vs EMACS" battle to
              the death, which I now realise the two communities are probably sick
              of now!!!

              Please check out the updated to the site and let me know if you are
              interested?
              Thanks,
              tommed

              On Aug 2, 8:46 pm, Marc Weber <marco-owe...@...> wrote:
              > Excerpts from tommed's message of Mon Aug 02 18:17:14 +0200 2010:
              >
              > > Hi Guys!
              >
              > > As a VIM user myself, I am hoping we can get some of our most elite
              > > users to participate in an online VIM vs EMACS vs
              > > INSERT_TEXT_EDITOR_HERE battle site?
              >
              > I added a comment.
              > I think you should drop Vim vs Emacs.
              > Call it "who can perform fastest - choose your favourite tool".
              > Then we all can learn by watching.
              >
              > Vim vs Emacs is broken by design because you can extend both.
              > Eg is it allowed using tools like Eclim?
              >
              > What about additional scripting languages such as Ruby, Perl, ..?
              >
              > Without clarifying the rules (eg :You have to use latest stable Vim /
              > GNU / X Emacs ..) with or without custom scrpts this must fail.
              >
              > Marc Weber

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            • Marc Weber
              ... quote: 1) You MUST use a default install (iow. no custom scripts or modifications) of the text editor of your choice 2) You may use any version of the text
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 3, 2010
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                Excerpts from tommed's message of Tue Aug 03 11:12:27 +0200 2010:
                > Great feedback, many thanks!
                > I have just updated the site, taking your excellent suggestions on
                > board.

                quote:

                1) You MUST use a default install (iow. no custom scripts or modifications)
                of the text editor of your choice


                2) You may use any version of the text editor (vi/vim/gvim/gnu
                emacs/xemacs/nano/ed/pico etc..), we even welcome users of Notepad,
                Eclipse, and Visual Studio!!

                Which operating System? Eg Linux has different versions of Vim.
                huge vim (with X and scripting support for Ruby, Python, ..)
                or tiny vim without X, without quickfix, without ...

                You're looking for masters - but they all have custom scripts.

                If it comes to Eclipse: When does the time tacking start?
                When you start the Editor, or when it already started.
                When using Eclipse this may make a difference.

                6) Upload your video to YouTube and post the URL as a response on our
                site

                How do you catch people speeding up their videos? I mean is there any
                chance that this competition is fair? Or will the man / woman win who
                can best postprocess the video before uploading it to YouTube?


                Also in both: emacs and vim you can easily copy paste a clipboard to get
                scripts you want.
                eg :call writefile('my.vim',[lines])| source my.vim

                Is this allowed?

                Marc Weber

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              • tommed
                Hi Marc, With regard to cheating; it doesn t matter what we say (eg. use a camcorder and have a clock in view ) there will always be ways to cheat at games!
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 3, 2010
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                  Hi Marc,

                  With regard to cheating; it doesn't matter what we say (eg. "use a
                  camcorder and have a clock in view") there will always be ways to
                  cheat at games! Because we don't currently have any prizes; I'm hoping
                  that people will realise there isn't really much to be made by
                  cheating!!

                  Also, the transcripts should help us decide whether or not what they
                  are doing is possible in the time they are doing it.

                  I have been thinking of whether or not we should start the timer from
                  opening the file; or from the text editor fully loaded. I realise that
                  a lot of the heavy-duty IDEs will have features that are only possible
                  due to their massive size... I can see arguments on both sides, so we
                  can probably figure this out through trial an error?

                  Because the challenges will vary so much; the large IDEs will
                  obviously not always be the ideal tool; but I think if we took the
                  time to start the IDE into consideration; Eclipse and Visual Studios
                  will probably be completely out of the equation... however, may be
                  they should be as we have to wait for them to load anyway before we
                  use them in real-life situations..? (One of the reasons I switched
                  from Visual Studios to VIM at work anyway!)

                  I'd say for now, we could probably start with the text file open, but
                  then play it by ear?


                  On Aug 3, 10:40 am, Marc Weber <marco-owe...@...> wrote:
                  > Excerpts from tommed's message of Tue Aug 03 11:12:27 +0200 2010:
                  >
                  > > Great feedback, many thanks!
                  > > I have just updated the site, taking your excellent suggestions on
                  > > board.
                  >
                  > quote:
                  >
                  > 1) You MUST use a default install (iow. no custom scripts or modifications)
                  > of the text editor of your choice
                  >
                  > 2) You may use any version of the text editor (vi/vim/gvim/gnu
                  > emacs/xemacs/nano/ed/pico etc..), we even welcome users of Notepad,
                  > Eclipse, and Visual Studio!!
                  >
                  > Which operating System? Eg Linux has different versions of Vim.
                  > huge vim (with X and scripting support for Ruby, Python, ..)
                  > or tiny vim without X, without quickfix, without ...
                  >
                  > You're looking for masters - but they all have custom scripts.
                  >
                  > If it comes to Eclipse: When does the time tacking start?
                  > When you start the Editor, or when it already started.
                  > When using Eclipse this may make a difference.
                  >
                  > 6) Upload your video to YouTube and post the URL as a response on our
                  > site
                  >
                  > How do you catch people speeding up their videos? I mean is there any
                  > chance that this competition is fair? Or will the man / woman win who
                  > can best postprocess the video before uploading it to YouTube?
                  >
                  > Also in both: emacs and vim you can easily copy paste a clipboard to get
                  > scripts you want.
                  > eg :call writefile('my.vim',[lines])| source my.vim
                  >
                  > Is this allowed?
                  >
                  > Marc Weber

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                • Pavel Ryumin
                  The accounting of startup time gives us a lot of complications. The greatest one is the inequality of the users with different hardware setups. I think it s
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 3, 2010
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                    The accounting of startup time gives us a lot of complications. The greatest one is the inequality of the users with different hardware setups. I think it's not good for editors war.
                    Pavel

                    On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:55 PM, tommed <tom.medhurst@...> wrote:
                    Hi Marc,

                    With regard to cheating; it doesn't matter what we say (eg. "use a
                    camcorder and have a clock in view") there will always be ways to
                    cheat at games! Because we don't currently have any prizes; I'm hoping
                    that people will realise there isn't really much to be made by
                    cheating!!

                    Also, the transcripts should help us decide whether or not what they
                    are doing is possible in the time they are doing it.

                    I have been thinking of whether or not we should start the timer from
                    opening the file; or from the text editor fully loaded. I realise that
                    a lot of the heavy-duty IDEs will have features that are only possible
                    due to their massive size... I can see arguments on both sides, so we
                    can probably figure this out through trial an error?

                    Because the challenges will vary so much; the large IDEs will
                    obviously not always be the ideal tool; but I think if we took the
                    time to start the IDE into consideration; Eclipse and Visual Studios
                    will probably be completely out of the equation... however, may be
                    they should be as we have to wait for them to load anyway before we
                    use them in real-life situations..? (One of the reasons I switched
                    from Visual Studios to VIM at work anyway!)

                    I'd say for now, we could probably start with the text file open, but
                    then play it by ear?


                    On Aug 3, 10:40 am, Marc Weber <marco-owe...@...> wrote:
                    > Excerpts from tommed's message of Tue Aug 03 11:12:27 +0200 2010:
                    >
                    > > Great feedback, many thanks!
                    > > I have just updated the site, taking your excellent suggestions on
                    > > board.
                    >
                    > quote:
                    >
                    > 1) You MUST use a default install (iow. no custom scripts or modifications)
                    > of the text editor of your choice
                    >
                    > 2) You may use any version of the text editor (vi/vim/gvim/gnu
                    > emacs/xemacs/nano/ed/pico etc..), we even welcome users of Notepad,
                    > Eclipse, and Visual Studio!!
                    >
                    > Which operating System? Eg Linux has different versions of Vim.
                    > huge vim (with X and scripting support for Ruby, Python, ..)
                    > or tiny vim without X, without quickfix, without ...
                    >
                    > You're looking for masters - but they all have custom scripts.
                    >
                    > If it comes to Eclipse: When does the time tacking start?
                    > When you start the Editor, or when it already started.
                    > When using Eclipse this may make a difference.
                    >
                    > 6) Upload your video to YouTube and post the URL as a response on our
                    > site
                    >
                    > How do you catch people speeding up their videos? I mean is there any
                    > chance that this competition is fair? Or will the man / woman win who
                    > can best postprocess the video before uploading it to YouTube?
                    >
                    > Also in both: emacs and vim you can easily copy paste a clipboard to get
                    > scripts you want.
                    > eg :call writefile('my.vim',[lines])| source my.vim
                    >
                    > Is this allowed?
                    >
                    > Marc Weber

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                  • Teemu Likonen
                    ... I m not interested in participating but for this discussion s sake let s imagine that I was such an elite user and could perform some of your
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 3, 2010
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                      * 2010-08-02 09:17 (-0700), tommed wrote:

                      > I am hoping we can get some of our most elite users to participate in
                      > an online VIM vs EMACS vs INSERT_TEXT_EDITOR_HERE battle site?
                      >
                      > I have posted a few details here: http://www.tommed.co.uk/?p=70

                      I'm not interested in participating but for this discussion's sake let's
                      imagine that I was such an "elite user" and could perform some of your
                      text-editing challenge operations in 3.184 seconds. It's quite obvious
                      that many other people can do it about equally fast. Some differences in
                      milliseconds don't matter in the practice anyway.

                      Now, how do you motivate me to do all the hassle of learning to use a
                      screen recording software, recording a video, learning to use a video
                      editor, editing the video a bit, registering to YouTube, learning to use
                      YouTube, uploading the video there and contacting you about this
                      unbelievably boring and pointless video? OK, that was a rhetoric
                      question. I'm not elite, whatever that means, and you just can't
                      motivate me to do all this hassle. :-) But maybe some people will
                      participate. Good luck.

                      On the other hand, how about approaching editors through your own
                      text-editing tasks and problems? Try to improve your own routines and
                      possibly discuss about different ways to improve your text editor
                      environment.

                      For example, there is a guy who wanted to attach nice location
                      information to his time and task organizer program (Emacs + org-mode).
                      He implemented support for Google Maps and published his work here:

                      http://julien.danjou.info/blog/2010.html#M-x%20google-maps
                      http://julien.danjou.info/google-maps-el.html

                      Isn't this guy an "elite user" because he could extend his editor and
                      make it nicer and more efficient environment to work with? I mean, for
                      *his* tasks. Who cares how many milliseconds it would take for that guy
                      to perform some of your text-editing challenges?

                      This Google Maps extension was just an example - it happened to be my
                      latest find. There are also lots of useful Vim scripts in

                      http://www.vim.org/scripts/

                      and I believe most of them are results of someone scratching their own
                      itches. So, learn to scratch yours efficiently. :-)

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                    • tommed
                      @Pavel - Agreed! ... -- You received this message from the vim_use maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to. For more
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 3, 2010
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                        @Pavel - Agreed!

                        On Aug 3, 11:02 am, Pavel Ryumin <pavel.ryu...@...> wrote:
                        > The accounting of startup time gives us a lot of complications. The greatest
                        > one is the inequality of the users with different hardware setups. I think
                        > it's not good for editors war.
                        > Pavel
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:55 PM, tommed <tom.medhu...@...> wrote:
                        > > Hi Marc,
                        >
                        > > With regard to cheating; it doesn't matter what we say (eg. "use a
                        > > camcorder and have a clock in view") there will always be ways to
                        > > cheat at games! Because we don't currently have any prizes; I'm hoping
                        > > that people will realise there isn't really much to be made by
                        > > cheating!!
                        >
                        > > Also, the transcripts should help us decide whether or not what they
                        > > are doing is possible in the time they are doing it.
                        >
                        > > I have been thinking of whether or not we should start the timer from
                        > > opening the file; or from the text editor fully loaded. I realise that
                        > > a lot of the heavy-duty IDEs will have features that are only possible
                        > > due to their massive size... I can see arguments on both sides, so we
                        > > can probably figure this out through trial an error?
                        >
                        > > Because the challenges will vary so much; the large IDEs will
                        > > obviously not always be the ideal tool; but I think if we took the
                        > > time to start the IDE into consideration; Eclipse and Visual Studios
                        > > will probably be completely out of the equation... however, may be
                        > > they should be as we have to wait for them to load anyway before we
                        > > use them in real-life situations..? (One of the reasons I switched
                        > > from Visual Studios to VIM at work anyway!)
                        >
                        > > I'd say for now, we could probably start with the text file open, but
                        > > then play it by ear?
                        >
                        > > On Aug 3, 10:40 am, Marc Weber <marco-owe...@...> wrote:
                        > > > Excerpts from tommed's message of Tue Aug 03 11:12:27 +0200 2010:
                        >
                        > > > > Great feedback, many thanks!
                        > > > > I have just updated the site, taking your excellent suggestions on
                        > > > > board.
                        >
                        > > > quote:
                        >
                        > > > 1) You MUST use a default install (iow. no custom scripts or
                        > > modifications)
                        > > > of the text editor of your choice
                        >
                        > > > 2) You may use any version of the text editor (vi/vim/gvim/gnu
                        > > > emacs/xemacs/nano/ed/pico etc..), we even welcome users of Notepad,
                        > > > Eclipse, and Visual Studio!!
                        >
                        > > > Which operating System? Eg Linux has different versions of Vim.
                        > > > huge vim (with X and scripting support for Ruby, Python, ..)
                        > > > or tiny vim without X, without quickfix, without ...
                        >
                        > > > You're looking for masters - but they all have custom scripts.
                        >
                        > > > If it comes to Eclipse: When does the time tacking start?
                        > > > When you start the Editor, or when it already started.
                        > > > When using Eclipse this may make a difference.
                        >
                        > > > 6) Upload your video to YouTube and post the URL as a response on our
                        > > > site
                        >
                        > > > How do you catch people speeding up their videos? I mean is there any
                        > > > chance that this competition is fair? Or will the man / woman win who
                        > > > can best postprocess the video before uploading it to YouTube?
                        >
                        > > > Also in both: emacs and vim you can easily copy paste a clipboard to get
                        > > > scripts you want.
                        > > > eg :call writefile('my.vim',[lines])| source my.vim
                        >
                        > > > Is this allowed?
                        >
                        > > > Marc Weber
                        >
                        > > --
                        > > You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                        > > Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                        > > For more information, visithttp://www.vim.org/maillist.php

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                      • tommed
                        @Teemu - thanks for your comments. The ideas you throw out there for the project are already covered by places like vim.org and commandlinefu.com. I am not
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 3, 2010
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                          @Teemu - thanks for your comments.

                          The ideas you throw out there for the project are already covered by
                          places like vim.org and commandlinefu.com. I am not interested in
                          covering something which has already been done so well.

                          I think the site is for people who will find this kind of competition
                          enjoyable and not for people who find uploading a video to YouTube a
                          hassle. The videos will be very short (that's the whole point!) so it
                          shouldn't make for laborious watching, quite the contrary!

                          Listening to your concerns, it is clear this site may not be for you,
                          as it may not be for everyone! There is no requirement for learning
                          screen recording software, as you could always use a video camera +
                          the learning curve for installing and using screen recorders isn't
                          exactly high (especially compared to using these editors!!).

                          I think back to when I started to learn VI and I remember how much I
                          wish there were videos out there to show me the benefits of using an
                          editor for every day use. I didn't understand the differences between
                          Emacs and VI (true-be-told I still don't really!!!) like each of their
                          strengths and weaknesses. I realise the idea isn't perfect as the time
                          measures the user's ability to undertake the tasks; but with the
                          transcript attached; it should make good competition and a great
                          learning base for others.


                          On Aug 3, 12:07 pm, Teemu Likonen <tliko...@...> wrote:
                          > * 2010-08-02 09:17 (-0700), tommed wrote:
                          >
                          > > I am hoping we can get some of our most elite users to participate in
                          > > an online VIM vs EMACS vs INSERT_TEXT_EDITOR_HERE battle site?
                          >
                          > > I have posted a few details here:http://www.tommed.co.uk/?p=70
                          >
                          > I'm not interested in participating but for this discussion's sake let's
                          > imagine that I was such an "elite user" and could perform some of your
                          > text-editing challenge operations in 3.184 seconds. It's quite obvious
                          > that many other people can do it about equally fast. Some differences in
                          > milliseconds don't matter in the practice anyway.
                          >
                          > Now, how do you motivate me to do all the hassle of learning to use a
                          > screen recording software, recording a video, learning to use a video
                          > editor, editing the video a bit, registering to YouTube, learning to use
                          > YouTube, uploading the video there and contacting you about this
                          > unbelievably boring and pointless video? OK, that was a rhetoric
                          > question. I'm not elite, whatever that means, and you just can't
                          > motivate me to do all this hassle. :-) But maybe some people will
                          > participate. Good luck.
                          >
                          > On the other hand, how about approaching editors through your own
                          > text-editing tasks and problems? Try to improve your own routines and
                          > possibly discuss about different ways to improve your text editor
                          > environment.
                          >
                          > For example, there is a guy who wanted to attach nice location
                          > information to his time and task organizer program (Emacs + org-mode).
                          > He implemented support for Google Maps and published his work here:
                          >
                          >    http://julien.danjou.info/blog/2010.html#M-x%20google-maps
                          >    http://julien.danjou.info/google-maps-el.html
                          >
                          > Isn't this guy an "elite user" because he could extend his editor and
                          > make it nicer and more efficient environment to work with? I mean, for
                          > *his* tasks. Who cares how many milliseconds it would take for that guy
                          > to perform some of your text-editing challenges?
                          >
                          > This Google Maps extension was just an example - it happened to be my
                          > latest find. There are also lots of useful Vim scripts in
                          >
                          >    http://www.vim.org/scripts/
                          >
                          > and I believe most of them are results of someone scratching their own
                          > itches. So, learn to scratch yours efficiently. :-)

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                        • Tony Mechelynck
                          ... Who uses Vim with not even a vimrc? The vimrc is a custom script of course. Well, I suppose that I could use vim -u
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 6, 2010
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                            On 03/08/10 11:40, Marc Weber wrote:
                            > Excerpts from tommed's message of Tue Aug 03 11:12:27 +0200 2010:
                            >> Great feedback, many thanks!
                            >> I have just updated the site, taking your excellent suggestions on
                            >> board.
                            >
                            > quote:
                            >
                            > 1) You MUST use a default install (iow. no custom scripts or modifications)
                            > of the text editor of your choice

                            Who uses Vim with not even a vimrc? The vimrc is a custom script of course.

                            Well, I suppose that I could use "vim -u
                            /usr/local/vim/vim73e/vimrc_example.vim -c 'filetype indent off' "
                            (since the example vimrc is distributed with Vim) or would these
                            command-line options be cheating already? And what about editing UTF-8
                            on Windows? This "no custom scripts" rule would make it impossible,
                            since most Windows "country settings" are for non-Unicode locales.

                            >
                            >
                            > 2) You may use any version of the text editor (vi/vim/gvim/gnu
                            > emacs/xemacs/nano/ed/pico etc..), we even welcome users of Notepad,
                            > Eclipse, and Visual Studio!!
                            >
                            > Which operating System? Eg Linux has different versions of Vim.
                            > huge vim (with X and scripting support for Ruby, Python, ..)
                            > or tiny vim without X, without quickfix, without ...
                            >
                            > You're looking for masters - but they all have custom scripts.
                            >
                            > If it comes to Eclipse: When does the time tacking start?
                            > When you start the Editor, or when it already started.
                            > When using Eclipse this may make a difference.
                            >
                            > 6) Upload your video to YouTube and post the URL as a response on our
                            > site
                            >
                            > How do you catch people speeding up their videos? I mean is there any
                            > chance that this competition is fair? Or will the man / woman win who
                            > can best postprocess the video before uploading it to YouTube?
                            >
                            >
                            > Also in both: emacs and vim you can easily copy paste a clipboard to get
                            > scripts you want.
                            > eg :call writefile('my.vim',[lines])| source my.vim
                            >
                            > Is this allowed?
                            >
                            > Marc Weber
                            >

                            Best regards,
                            Tony.
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                            [real standing law in North Dakota, United States of America]

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