Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[CURIOUSITY] am i using

Expand Messages
  • chika.tambun
    closed source text editor when i used to use vim?! this is happen when i give my opinion on a gnu/linux distro for requesting the full-vim package rather than
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 28, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      closed source text editor when i used to use vim?!

      this is happen when i give my opinion on a gnu/linux distro for
      requesting the full-vim package rather than mini one on the next
      release the distro, then they talk about freedom rather than the power
      of functionality.


      br,
      chika.tambun

      --
      You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
      For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
    • Tim Chase
      ... -tim -- You received this message from the vim_use maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 28, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        chika.tambun wrote:
        > closed source text editor when i used to use vim?!

        :help license

        -tim




        --
        You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
        For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
      • pansz
        ... POSIX only defines that a standard vi must exists in a POSIX-compliant system. So developers have freedom to choose any version of vi to fit into their
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 28, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          chika.tambun 写道:
          > closed source text editor when i used to use vim?!
          >
          > this is happen when i give my opinion on a gnu/linux distro for
          > requesting the full-vim package rather than mini one on the next
          > release the distro, then they talk about freedom rather than the power
          > of functionality.
          >

          POSIX only defines that a standard vi must exists in a POSIX-compliant
          system. So developers have freedom to choose any version of vi to fit
          into their distribution.

          open-source software != free-as-in-freedom software.

          Vim is open-source, but it is not free-as-in-freedom software.

          --
          You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
          For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
        • Raúl Núñez de Arenas Coronado
          Saluton pansz :) ... I don t want to start a flamewar on this issue, I m just curious: in which way is Vim not free-as-in-freedom software? I ve read the
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 29, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Saluton pansz :)

            pansz <p...@...> skribis:
            > open-source software != free-as-in-freedom software.
            >
            > Vim is open-source, but it is not free-as-in-freedom software.

            I don't want to start a flamewar on this issue, I'm just curious: in
            which way is Vim not free-as-in-freedom software? I've read the license
            and it allows even relicensing as GPLv2. In fact, the license is very
            similar to the free license I use for my own projects, the Artistic
            License 2.0

            IMHO, Vim is free software.

            --
            Raúl "DervishD" Núñez de Arenas Coronado
            Linux Registered User 88736 | http://www.dervishd.net
            It's my PC and I'll cry if I want to... RAmen!

            --
            You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
            For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
          • Ben Fritz
            On Jan 29, 2:20 am, Raúl Núñez de Arenas Coronado ... I *MY* opinion, Vim s license is *more* free than the GPL. The GPL requires that
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 29, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              On Jan 29, 2:20 am, Raúl Núñez de Arenas Coronado <raul...@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > IMHO, Vim is free software.
              >

              I *MY* opinion, Vim's license is *more* free than the GPL. The GPL
              requires that any derivatives also use the GPL for their license. I'm
              simplifying (see :help license), but Vim allows you to choose your own
              license for your modified version. If I understand correctly, the only
              conditions are that Bram reserves the right to get and distribute your
              source code without fee, and you can't set restrictions on anyone from
              distributing the executable.

              --
              You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
              For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
            • Raúl Núñez de Arenas Coronado
              Saluton Ben :) ... Well, again, I don t have any intention of starting a flamewar here, but I must say I agree with you. I switched from GPLv2 to Artistic 2.0
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 29, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Saluton Ben :)

                Ben Fritz <f...@...> skribis:
                > On Jan 29, 2:20 am, Raúl Núñez de Arenas Coronado <raul...@...>
                > wrote:
                >>
                >> IMHO, Vim is free software.
                >
                > I *MY* opinion, Vim's license is *more* free than the GPL. The GPL
                > requires that any derivatives also use the GPL for their license.

                Well, again, I don't have any intention of starting a flamewar here, but
                I must say I agree with you. I switched from GPLv2 to Artistic 2.0 for
                that and other reasons.

                This said, I'm OK with any license as long as it allows you to reuse
                knowledge (I'm simplifying, of course, but the key point is that for
                me) without much hassle.

                And again: Vim is, IMHO, free as in freedom.

                --
                Raúl "DervishD" Núñez de Arenas Coronado
                Linux Registered User 88736 | http://www.dervishd.net
                It's my PC and I'll cry if I want to... RAmen!

                --
                You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
              • pansz
                ... There won t be a flamewar on this issue: I m just saying that some distribution developers choose not to include vim by default and the freedom is their
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 31, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Raúl Núñez de Arenas Coronado 写道:
                  > Saluton pansz :)
                  > pansz <p...@...> skribis:
                  >> open-source software != free-as-in-freedom software.
                  >> Vim is open-source, but it is not free-as-in-freedom software.
                  > I don't want to start a flamewar on this issue

                  There won't be a flamewar on this issue: I'm just saying that some
                  distribution developers choose not to include vim by default and the
                  freedom is their reason.

                  I don't care whether vim should be include in a particular distribution
                  or not. Because I always compile vim from svn, which is far more useful
                  than distribution-specific versions.

                  IMO most serious vim users should compile their own vim. Only casual
                  users should rely on distribution-specific version.

                  --
                  You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                  For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                • Ben Fritz
                  ... I don t know about that. A person can use Vim exclusively and very efficiently without ever compiling it themselves. Vim is a powerful tool no matter how
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 1, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Jan 31, 9:26 pm, pansz <panshi...@...> wrote:
                    > IMO most serious vim users should compile their own vim. Only casual
                    > users should rely on distribution-specific version.

                    I don't know about that. A person can use Vim exclusively and very
                    efficiently without ever compiling it themselves. Vim is a powerful
                    tool no matter how you obtain it. I still would not have compiled
                    myself were it not for my playing around with Linux this year. On
                    Windows in particular, Steve Hall's "Cream" build is more than
                    sufficient for my needs, and kept up-to-date very well in terms of
                    both patches and runtime updates. Maybe on certain Linux distributions
                    which keep their Vim a year or more out of date this idea makes sense,
                    but I still think even "serious" users can work for years without ever
                    touching the C code.

                    I would say that "serious" users should learn vimscript, but that's
                    part of learning the editor. And they need not even know very much of
                    it.

                    --
                    You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                    For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                  • Tim Chase
                    ... I think I qualify as one of those serious users :) I run Debian stable, which tends to be pretty antiquated (and provide cause for Tony to give me a
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 1, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Ben Fritz wrote:
                      > Maybe on certain Linux distributions which keep their Vim a
                      > year or more out of date this idea makes sense, but I still
                      > think even "serious" users can work for years without ever
                      > touching the C code.

                      I think I qualify as one of those "serious users" :) I run
                      Debian stable, which tends to be pretty antiquated (and provide
                      cause for Tony to give me a little friendly grief/chiding/goading
                      for running such old versions ;-) It was a big deal for me when
                      a dist-upgrade moved me from 6.x to 7.x, and I still have some
                      old machines that get nothing but security updates with 6.x on
                      them. I've never done anything more compiling/C-related than
                      read Tony's excellent build-instructions.

                      -tim



                      --
                      You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                      For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                    • Ben Fritz
                      ... This actually points out something I ve realized quite recently. As annoying as Bram s insistence on not breaking backward compatibility can get sometimes
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 2, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Feb 1, 9:01 am, Tim Chase <v...@...> wrote:
                        > It was a big deal for me when
                        > a dist-upgrade moved me from 6.x to 7.x, and I still have some
                        > old machines that get nothing but security updates with 6.x on
                        > them.

                        This actually points out something I've realized quite recently. As
                        annoying as Bram's insistence on not breaking backward compatibility
                        can get sometimes (especially when the old behavior is arguably
                        broken), it is VERY nice to be able to just jump into an old version
                        of Vim and know exactly what you're doing. I've found that other GUI-
                        based editors change their interface or keyboard shortcuts drastically
                        from time to time, making efficient work in an old version very
                        difficult.

                        At work, I use versions of Vim from 6.0.something up to the latest 7.2
                        release depending on what station/terminal I'm logged into, and can
                        share my .vimrc between all of them (with careful coding with "has"
                        and "exists" conditionals to prevent errors on the really old
                        versions), which is a WONDERFUL feature that I don't think I've seen
                        in any other editor (though admittedly, I've never used Emacs
                        seriously, it could well have this level of backwards compatibility as
                        well).

                        --
                        You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                        For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                      • pansz
                        ... To do compile yourself is one thing, to touch the C code is quite another. Most Linux distributions are too free on packaging vim and user got a
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 3, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > Maybe on certain Linux distributions
                          > which keep their Vim a year or more out of date this idea makes sense,
                          > but I still think even "serious" users can work for years without ever
                          > touching the C code.

                          To do compile yourself is one thing, to touch the C code is quite another.

                          Most Linux distributions are too "free" on packaging vim and user got a
                          completely unknown version of vim and it may change very often. You even
                          don't know what feature will still exist and what unwanted feature will
                          be added in the next update!

                          So this actually is the problem of distribution package maintainer, and
                          this is the reason I would recommend against using the
                          distribution-specific version of vim.

                          By using your own version of vim you can:
                          1. know this is your vim and wanted feature is always there.
                          2. update to the latest patch.
                          3. embedded symbol information in it and have the correct stacktrace
                          when crash.

                          So, seriously, if you're using Linux please compile vim yourself. This
                          does not require any knowledge in C at all.


                          Well, if you're talking about the Windows version, then it seems no
                          point compile yourself. Because you know you ARE getting the "Cream"
                          version, but what is the percentage of Windows gvim users?

                          Yes, Windows rule 90% of the desktop, but most of those poeple do not
                          use vim, and vim runs not only in desktop but also in the server. I
                          expect more than 50% of vim users are not using vim in Windows.

                          --
                          You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                          For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                        • Matt Wozniski
                          ... Most vim users don t need this. Every distro that I know of has a package for a huge vim version with every applicable feature included (archlinux may
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 3, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 3:26 AM, pansz wrote:
                            >> Maybe on certain Linux distributions
                            >> which keep their Vim a year or more out of date this idea makes sense,
                            >> but I still think even "serious" users can work for years without ever
                            >> touching the C code.
                            >
                            > To do compile yourself is one thing, to touch the C code is quite another.
                            >
                            > Most Linux distributions are too "free" on packaging vim and user got a
                            > completely unknown version of vim and it may change very often. You even
                            > don't know what feature will still exist and what unwanted feature will be
                            > added in the next update!
                            >
                            > So this actually is the problem of distribution package maintainer, and this
                            > is the reason I would recommend against using the distribution-specific
                            > version of vim.
                            >
                            > By using your own version of vim you can:
                            > 1. know this is your vim and wanted feature is always there.

                            Most vim users don't need this. Every distro that I know of has a
                            package for a "huge" vim version with every applicable feature
                            included (archlinux may be the exception here - I don't think that
                            they have a package that provides a "vim" binary with gui features,
                            only a "gvim" binary). Your wanted feature will be there as long as
                            you install a package that includes it, which is much easier and less
                            time consuming than compiling from source.

                            > 2. update to the latest patch.

                            Most software users in general don't need this. The only reason to
                            update to the latest patch is either to be able to make use of a new
                            feature or to pick up a new bugfix. As someone who is an advanced vim
                            user and scripter, it's rare for either of those to apply to me.
                            Picking up a new feature for my vim build at home isn't too useful to
                            me, since I still need my scripts to work for other people, and at
                            $JOB. Picking up a new bugfix isn't too useful, either, even for a
                            bug that I found and submitted the patch for - I still need to come up
                            with a backwards compatible work-around instead most of the time.

                            > 3. embedded symbol information in it and have the correct stacktrace when
                            > crash.

                            Most large distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc) have a package you
                            can install to get the symbols. And most people don't have stackdumps
                            enabled. And even the ones who do rarely want to report the crash or
                            look into why it happened.

                            > So, seriously, if you're using Linux please compile vim yourself. This does
                            > not require any knowledge in C at all.

                            But it also offers little advantage for the typical user, and requires
                            extra work that is almost always unnecessary for the average user.

                            ~Matt

                            --
                            You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                            For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                          • sc
                            ... matt matt matt -- you re one of the smartest and most helpful people on this list but i can t let you make a statement like that without calling you on it
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 3, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Wednesday 03 February 2010 09:46:12 am Matt Wozniski wrote:

                              > Most software users in general don't need this. The only
                              > reason to update to the latest patch is either to be able to
                              > make use of a new feature or to pick up a new bugfix. As
                              > someone who is an advanced vim
                              >

                              matt matt matt -- you're one of the smartest and most helpful
                              people on this list but i can't let you make a statement like
                              that without calling you on it

                              possibly the largest, but certainly a large subset of patch
                              downloaders do so to decrease the time after patches are released
                              and subsequent bugs are discovered -- the more people who stay
                              current, the quicker new bugs are discovered

                              we love vim, we love open source, and keeping an eye on things in
                              this manner is our way of giving back to the community -- we, or
                              at least some of us, have made good livings as programmers and
                              feel it's the least we can do to contribute and stay in the game

                              you must have meant "the only reason for most software users to
                              update..."

                              ok -- never mind

                              sc

                              --
                              You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                              For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                            • Gary Johnson
                              ... I m with Matt on this one. I normally have enough to do to keep up with my responsibilities on the project I m paid to work on--I don t have a lot of time
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 3, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On 2010-02-03, sc wrote:
                                > On Wednesday 03 February 2010 09:46:12 am Matt Wozniski wrote:
                                >
                                > > Most software users in general don't need this. The only
                                > > reason to update to the latest patch is either to be able to
                                > > make use of a new feature or to pick up a new bugfix. As
                                > > someone who is an advanced vim
                                > >
                                >
                                > matt matt matt -- you're one of the smartest and most helpful
                                > people on this list but i can't let you make a statement like
                                > that without calling you on it
                                >
                                > possibly the largest, but certainly a large subset of patch
                                > downloaders do so to decrease the time after patches are released
                                > and subsequent bugs are discovered -- the more people who stay
                                > current, the quicker new bugs are discovered
                                >
                                > we love vim, we love open source, and keeping an eye on things in
                                > this manner is our way of giving back to the community -- we, or
                                > at least some of us, have made good livings as programmers and
                                > feel it's the least we can do to contribute and stay in the game
                                >
                                > you must have meant "the only reason for most software users to
                                > update..."
                                >
                                > ok -- never mind

                                I'm with Matt on this one. I normally have enough to do to keep up
                                with my responsibilities on the project I'm paid to work on--I don't
                                have a lot of time to spend babysitting my tools. As it happens, I
                                have a personal interest in Vim so I do try to take the extra time
                                and effort to keep my various installations up to date.
                                Nevertheless, I would not recommend to anyone else that they do
                                this. I have very seldom found it _necessary_ to use the very
                                latest version. Before I learned about the Cream site, I just used
                                the N.0 version on Windows until N+1.0 was released and it worked
                                well enough.

                                If it ain't broke, ....

                                Regards,
                                Gary


                                --
                                You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                              • pansz
                                ... Do you really need the Huge version just for an Editor? Do you think most users should install features they may never need in their life? . Yes they have
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 3, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  >> By using your own version of vim you can:
                                  >> 1. know this is your vim and wanted feature is always there.
                                  >
                                  > Most vim users don't need this. Every distro that I know of has a
                                  > package for a "huge" vim version with every applicable feature
                                  > included (archlinux may be the exception here - I don't think that
                                  > they have a package that provides a "vim" binary with gui features,
                                  > only a "gvim" binary). Your wanted feature will be there as long as
                                  > you install a package that includes it, which is much easier and less
                                  > time consuming than compiling from source.

                                  Do you really need the Huge version just for an Editor? Do you think
                                  "most users should install features they may never need in their life?".

                                  Yes they have the freedom to install unnecessary stuffs, but this is
                                  another story.

                                  What I need is a vim compiled with *everything default*, i.e. a Normal
                                  version with gui support. But nobody seems to provide it. They either
                                  provide a Tiny version or provide a Huge version.

                                  There always have been newbie questions in linux forums asking why his
                                  vi does not have some feature, the reason is they've got the Tiny
                                  version or even not the vim. When I tell them to "install vim" they
                                  would claim that "they already got vim and the vim command works, why
                                  should they install vim?", and from time to time you may waste your time
                                  explaining why this vim is different from that vim, then you again need
                                  to teach them how to find the package-name of vim in their distribution,
                                  and then you need to tell them how to use their distribution's package
                                  manager... oops, Telling them to download vim source and make install
                                  vim is the best way so far, since this solves almost all problems of
                                  this kind.

                                  There are other issues for distribution specific vim, e.g. the
                                  directory. They put system-wide vimrc in different directories, which
                                  you may not know, because each distribution maintainer has different
                                  preference. If you compile your own vim you know vim always lies in your
                                  /usr/local/share/vim and you're more helpful to yourself and for those
                                  who want to help.

                                  For advanced user like Matt, well, may have no difficulties identifying
                                  distribution-specific vim directories.

                                  For many average people, if you go to ask "where is your vim installed?"
                                  they may never give you the correct answer unless they're compiling
                                  themselves. How could you help if you don't even know what version of
                                  vim they may have and where is it?

                                  --
                                  You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                  For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                                • Matt Wozniski
                                  ... Yes, I do need the huge version. And yes, I think that most users should install features that they ll never need - installing those features makes their
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 3, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 7:59 PM, pansz wrote:
                                    >
                                    >>> By using your own version of vim you can:
                                    >>> 1. know this is your vim and wanted feature is always there.
                                    >>
                                    >> Most vim users don't need this.  Every distro that I know of has a
                                    >> package for a "huge" vim version with every applicable feature
                                    >> included (archlinux may be the exception here - I don't think that
                                    >> they have a package that provides a "vim" binary with gui features,
                                    >> only a "gvim" binary).  Your wanted feature will be there as long as
                                    >> you install a package that includes it, which is much easier and less
                                    >> time consuming than compiling from source.
                                    >
                                    > Do you really need the Huge version just for an Editor? Do you think "most
                                    > users should install features they may never need in their life?".

                                    Yes, I do need the huge version. And yes, I think that most users
                                    should install features that they'll never need - installing those
                                    features makes their lives easier, and has no significant disadvantage
                                    for the average user. In the worst case, their vim binary takes up
                                    slightly more space on disk and in memory. For most people, that's
                                    simply not a concern. My web browser has features that I never use,
                                    my terminal emulator has features I never use, my IRC client has
                                    features I never use. My operating system includes drivers for
                                    hardware that I don't have, and my kernel can run binaries tuned for
                                    processors that I don't have. I have fonts that contain glyphs for
                                    languages that I'll never use. And I consider all of that a good
                                    thing, because it makes life easier for the people who do need those
                                    features, or who have that hardware, or who speak those languages, and
                                    they don't cost me anything significant.

                                    > Yes they have the freedom to install unnecessary stuffs, but this is another
                                    > story.
                                    >
                                    > What I need is a vim compiled with *everything default*, i.e. a Normal
                                    > version with gui support. But nobody seems to provide it. They either
                                    > provide a Tiny version or provide a Huge version.
                                    >
                                    > There always have been newbie questions in linux forums asking why his vi
                                    > does not have some feature, the reason is they've got the Tiny version or
                                    > even not the vim. When I tell them to "install vim" they would claim that
                                    > "they already got vim and the vim command works, why should they install
                                    > vim?", and from time to time you may waste your time explaining why this vim
                                    > is different from that vim,

                                    This, I can agree with. This exact argument is why Debian-derivatives
                                    stopped calling the vim-tiny package "vim" and started calling it "vi"
                                    - it is definitely a bad thing for people to not be aware that they're
                                    running a stripped down version that only strives for vi
                                    compatibility.

                                    > then you again need to teach them how to find
                                    > the package-name of vim in their distribution, and then you need to tell
                                    > them how to use their distribution's package manager... oops, Telling them
                                    > to download vim source and make install vim is the best way so far, since
                                    > this solves almost all problems of this kind.

                                    Except for the fact that it becomes extra maintenance to keep it up to
                                    date. And the fact that they'll almost certainly have to use their
                                    distro's package manager to install the dependencies, anyway, unless
                                    they plan on compiling those from source as well. And the fact that
                                    the resulting binary will likely be missing features that they would
                                    like to have, simply because they were missing the build-depends for
                                    them in the first place. I think telling someone "sudo apt-get
                                    install vim-gnome" is a whole lot easier than saying "go read Tony M's
                                    1500 hundred word web page about how to compile vim from source, and
                                    try not to miss anything important, and then remember to keep it up to
                                    date once in a while."

                                    > There are other issues for distribution specific vim, e.g. the directory.
                                    > They put system-wide vimrc in different directories, which you may not know,
                                    > because each distribution maintainer has different preference. If you
                                    > compile your own vim you know vim always lies in your /usr/local/share/vim
                                    > and you're more helpful to yourself and for those who want to help.
                                    >
                                    > For advanced user like Matt, well, may have no difficulties identifying
                                    > distribution-specific vim directories.

                                    Most people don't need to know that. I don't know (exactly) where my
                                    browser stores bookmarks, or where it loads its default chrome from.
                                    I don't need to worry about where my kernel loads modules from, or
                                    where my terminal loads its fonts from. When things are working
                                    properly, the user doesn't need to know this. When things aren't
                                    working properly, whatever guru on the subject is helping you out
                                    knows how to help you find these things out. If a user doesn't like a
                                    preference that his distro vimrc sets, he should just set it himself
                                    in his vimrc. This has an advantage over compiling from source to fix
                                    that problem, anyway - when he moves his vimrc to another machine, the
                                    problem will be fixed there, too. If he'd fixed it by recompiling,
                                    he'd need to recompile on the new machine as well. Saying that a
                                    person should compile from source to adjust the path to the vim binary
                                    is like saying that he should get professional help to stop snoring.
                                    Sure, it's an option, but for most people the better option is to just
                                    learn to live with it until it becomes a real problem.

                                    > For many average people, if you go to ask "where is your vim installed?"
                                    > they may never give you the correct answer unless they're compiling
                                    > themselves. How could you help if you don't even know what version of vim
                                    > they may have and where is it?

                                    Ask them to paste a copy of their :version output, and you have almost
                                    all of that information. Ask them to paste the output of :scriptnames
                                    and you have basically all the rest of it. And all of that is a
                                    usually a waste of time, anyway - it's nearly always enough to ask
                                    then to check a ":verbose set foo?", or to see if you can reproduce
                                    the problem yourself. Issues that are distro-specific, other than the
                                    simple case of an option value being changed to a different default in
                                    a systemwide vimrc, are relatively few and far between. And
                                    discovering *that* the issue is distro-specific only requires
                                    knowledge and an updated part on the part of the person helping, it
                                    requires very little from the person having the problem.

                                    ~Matt

                                    --
                                    You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                    For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                                  • pansz
                                    ... This really depends, if you start an application and use it until shutdown then it makes little difference between huge and normal version. But vim is a
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 3, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      >> Do you really need the Huge version just for an Editor? Do you think "most
                                      >> users should install features they may never need in their life?".
                                      >
                                      > Yes, I do need the huge version.

                                      This really depends, if you start an application and use it until
                                      shutdown then it makes little difference between huge and normal
                                      version. But vim is a command you may use very often, a typical CLI use
                                      of vim may require you enter and exit vim a lot.

                                      For this kind of use, the startup-time of vim is important, if, like
                                      many average users who have no budget for a new personal computer or
                                      their company refuses to upgrade their 5+-year-old computer, the
                                      startup-time of vim varies.

                                      You want vim to start-up instantly, you customize your vim build. That's
                                      quite straight forward. Many other software does not meet the situation,
                                      because they don't typically launched by CLI and they will not be
                                      enter/exit very often.

                                      >> For advanced user like Matt, well, may have no difficulties identifying
                                      >> distribution-specific vim directories.
                                      >
                                      > Most people don't need to know that.

                                      Yes they did. A typical vim user may like using vim key-binding in most
                                      CLI applications, especially they may like to have vim-style syntax
                                      highlight for most files. e.g. using the macro included with vim to
                                      replace the system pager. This script lies in
                                      /usr/local/share/vim/vim72/macros/less.sh

                                      You'll have to know where your vim installed, before you can use the script.

                                      --
                                      You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                      For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                                    • Ben Fritz
                                      ... I have a computer at home that is now about 9 years old, with a startup time for HUGE Vim that is still faster than pretty much any other editor I ve seen,
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 4, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Feb 3, 11:51 pm, pansz <panshi...@...> wrote:
                                        > For this kind of use, the startup-time of vim is important, if, like
                                        > many average users who have no budget for a new personal computer or
                                        > their company refuses to upgrade their 5+-year-old computer, the
                                        > startup-time of vim varies.
                                        >

                                        I have a computer at home that is now about 9 years old, with a
                                        startup time for HUGE Vim that is still faster than pretty much any
                                        other editor I've seen, except probably Notepad. It only takes a few
                                        seconds.

                                        > You want vim to start-up instantly, you customize your vim build. That's
                                        > quite straight forward. Many other software does not meet the situation,
                                        > because they don't typically launched by CLI and they will not be
                                        > enter/exit very often.
                                        >

                                        I think that most of Vim's startup time is in loading all the plugins
                                        and .vimrc customizations. If you want to limit startup time, I think
                                        your best bet is actually to simplify your user customizations.

                                        I don't have any hard numbers, but I know my normal gvim takes a few
                                        seconds to launch, whereas launching gvim -N -u NONE -i NONE happens
                                        pretty much instantly even with a huge build.

                                        > >> For advanced user like Matt, well, may have no difficulties identifying
                                        > >> distribution-specific vim directories.
                                        >
                                        > > Most people don't need to know that.
                                        >
                                        > Yes they did. A typical vim user may like using vim key-binding in most
                                        > CLI applications, especially they may like to have vim-style syntax
                                        > highlight for most files. e.g. using the macro included with vim to
                                        > replace the system pager. This script lies in
                                        > /usr/local/share/vim/vim72/macros/less.sh
                                        >
                                        > You'll have to know where your vim installed, before you can use the script.

                                        Compiling Vim yourself won't help you know where Vim is installed. I
                                        imagine most people install Vim with a simple:

                                        make config
                                        make
                                        make install

                                        Nowhere in this do you specify the install path, unless you really dig
                                        into the configuration.

                                        If I want to know Vim's install location, regardless of whether I
                                        compiled or not, I do: which vim

                                        If I want to know what scripts Vim loads, again regardless of whether
                                        I compiled it myself or not, I do :scriptnames. If I want to know
                                        where Vim looks for scripts, I do :set runtimepath?.

                                        The ONLY things I personally get from compiling Vim myself (not having
                                        modified the source by hand yet) are:
                                        1. I can always have the absolute latest version
                                        2. I can try out unofficial or unreleased bugfix patches if I want to

                                        --
                                        You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                        For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                                      • Michael Henry
                                        ... I can believe that. I m sure it depends on the user. For example, I compile my own Vim mainly so I can incorporate Ruby support, because there are a
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 4, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On 02/04/2010 10:31 AM, Ben Fritz wrote:
                                          >
                                          > The ONLY things I personally get from compiling Vim myself (not having
                                          > modified the source by hand yet) are:
                                          > 1. I can always have the absolute latest version
                                          > 2. I can try out unofficial or unreleased bugfix patches if I want to

                                          I can believe that. I'm sure it depends on the user.

                                          For example, I compile my own Vim mainly so I can incorporate
                                          Ruby support, because there are a couple of plugins that I like
                                          which require it.

                                          Michael Henry

                                          --
                                          You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                          For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                                        • Matt Wozniski
                                          ... The debian and ubuntu vim-gnome packages include ruby support, fwiw. I believe the fedora full vim package does, too. ~Matt -- You received this message
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 4, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Michael Henry <vim@...> wrote:
                                            > On 02/04/2010 10:31 AM, Ben Fritz wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >> The ONLY things I personally get from compiling Vim myself (not having
                                            >> modified the source by hand yet) are:
                                            >> 1. I can always have the absolute latest version
                                            >> 2. I can try out unofficial or unreleased bugfix patches if I want to
                                            >
                                            > I can believe that.  I'm sure it depends on the user.
                                            >
                                            > For example, I compile my own Vim mainly so I can incorporate
                                            > Ruby support, because there are a couple of plugins that I like
                                            > which require it.

                                            The debian and ubuntu vim-gnome packages include ruby support, fwiw.
                                            I believe the fedora "full" vim package does, too.

                                            ~Matt

                                            --
                                            You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                            For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                                          • Michael Henry
                                            ... Thanks - that s useful to know. I m trying out Arch Linux now, and its package doesn t have ruby support (though it has mostly everything else, and it s
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 5, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              On 02/04/2010 07:10 PM, Matt Wozniski wrote:
                                              > The debian and ubuntu vim-gnome packages include ruby support, fwiw.
                                              > I believe the fedora "full" vim package does, too.

                                              Thanks - that's useful to know. I'm trying out Arch Linux now,
                                              and its package doesn't have ruby support (though it has mostly
                                              everything else, and it's fairly up-to-date). I think I was on
                                              Fedora 7 when I started compiling Vim to get ruby support,
                                              though I'm not certain. But I should re-evaluate the Vim features
                                              in Fedora 11 (which we use at work) to see if I still need to
                                              compile Vim at work.

                                              Thanks,
                                              Michael Henry

                                              --
                                              You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                              For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                                            • Antony Scriven
                                              ... I m busy enough that I don t even know what the latest version of Vim is, never mind compile my own. --Antony -- You received this message from the
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 7, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                On 1 February 2010 03:26, pansz <panshizhu@...> wrote:

                                                > [...]
                                                >
                                                > IMO most serious vim users should compile their own vim.
                                                > Only casual users should rely on distribution-specific
                                                > version.

                                                I'm busy enough that I don't even know what the latest
                                                version of Vim is, never mind compile my own. --Antony

                                                --
                                                You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                                For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
                                              • Tony Mechelynck
                                                ... Well, the problem with n.0 is that, with passing time, it can get very obsolete: see for instance http://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim/patches/7.2/README listing all
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Mar 28, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  On 03/02/10 20:12, Gary Johnson wrote:
                                                  > On 2010-02-03, sc wrote:
                                                  >> On Wednesday 03 February 2010 09:46:12 am Matt Wozniski wrote:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>> Most software users in general don't need this. The only
                                                  >>> reason to update to the latest patch is either to be able to
                                                  >>> make use of a new feature or to pick up a new bugfix. As
                                                  >>> someone who is an advanced vim
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> matt matt matt -- you're one of the smartest and most helpful
                                                  >> people on this list but i can't let you make a statement like
                                                  >> that without calling you on it
                                                  >>
                                                  >> possibly the largest, but certainly a large subset of patch
                                                  >> downloaders do so to decrease the time after patches are released
                                                  >> and subsequent bugs are discovered -- the more people who stay
                                                  >> current, the quicker new bugs are discovered
                                                  >>
                                                  >> we love vim, we love open source, and keeping an eye on things in
                                                  >> this manner is our way of giving back to the community -- we, or
                                                  >> at least some of us, have made good livings as programmers and
                                                  >> feel it's the least we can do to contribute and stay in the game
                                                  >>
                                                  >> you must have meant "the only reason for most software users to
                                                  >> update..."
                                                  >>
                                                  >> ok -- never mind
                                                  >
                                                  > I'm with Matt on this one. I normally have enough to do to keep up
                                                  > with my responsibilities on the project I'm paid to work on--I don't
                                                  > have a lot of time to spend babysitting my tools. As it happens, I
                                                  > have a personal interest in Vim so I do try to take the extra time
                                                  > and effort to keep my various installations up to date.
                                                  > Nevertheless, I would not recommend to anyone else that they do
                                                  > this. I have very seldom found it _necessary_ to use the very
                                                  > latest version. Before I learned about the Cream site, I just used
                                                  > the N.0 version on Windows until N+1.0 was released and it worked
                                                  > well enough.
                                                  >
                                                  > If it ain't broke, ....
                                                  >
                                                  > Regards,
                                                  > Gary
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  Well, the problem with n.0 is that, with passing time, it can get very
                                                  obsolete: see for instance http://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim/patches/7.2/README
                                                  listing all the bugfixes since Vim 7.2.0 came out (as a one-line summary
                                                  of each of them).

                                                  So, at the time I was still on Windows, when Steve Hall started
                                                  publishing "more up to date" versions than the 6.1.0 (or was it 6.2.0?)
                                                  available on the vim.org site, I used them. And then something happened,
                                                  and those Vim versions stopped being upgraded: that's when I learnt how
                                                  to do it myself, found out that it wasn't that hard, and published the
                                                  result of my experiments as a HowTo page for Windows and some
                                                  installable zipfiles for Windows (that was when the first 7.0 alpha
                                                  versions happened, so for a time I published both 7.0aa builds and 6.3.x
                                                  or 6.4.x). Then my computer broke down, and Steve took up again the
                                                  tools fallen from my hands. When I scrapped Windows for a Linux-only
                                                  box, I found out that my distro's Vim versions were much "slower to
                                                  update" than what I was accustomed to, so I learnt "the Unix way" of
                                                  building Vim. Again, it isn't really hard once you get the hang of it:
                                                  that's the origin of my Unix/Linux HowTo page.

                                                  Some bugfixes and enhancements have been very important for me, for
                                                  instance when the ++ff modifier started being obeyed in all cases, even
                                                  with 'fileformats' nonempty, or when glyphs for Unicode codepoints above
                                                  U+FFFF started to appear correctly in gvim. Other people have other
                                                  priorities. So I compile Vim as soon as a patch is published that is
                                                  relevant on my system, and with all patches to date in sequence, even
                                                  "irrelevant" ones (i.e., if a patch is Windows-only, I shall only apply
                                                  it when a later "Unix" patch comes out), and I check (by rsync) the ftp
                                                  site several times a day to see if there are new runtime file versions
                                                  (which is probably much too often). YMMV.


                                                  About the OP's question: Linux distros may distribute as many as four
                                                  "Vim" packages, of which every Vim user must install at least two and
                                                  may install more, as follows (names as they used to be when I was on
                                                  RedHat):

                                                  - vim-common runtime files etc., required for every Vim install.
                                                  - vim-minimal a "tiny" build of Vim, with minimum features and no GUI,
                                                  installed as "vi" in a directory which is always
                                                  mounted on all Linux installations, even in
                                                  "single-user emergency-repairs" runlevel.
                                                  - vim-enhanced a "big" or "huge" build of Vim, with decent features but
                                                  no GUI and usually no X11 (clipboard and client-server)
                                                  support, installed as "vim".
                                                  - vim-x11 a GUI version of Vim, installed as "gvim" in some $PATH
                                                  directory which typically would only exist on systems
                                                  where X11 is installed.

                                                  If only the first two are installed, then you have "a vim version" but
                                                  not a full-featured one. It is quite possible to install only the first
                                                  and last ones, and to softlink the other "executable names" (see :help
                                                  ex) to the resulting gvim. Or to install them all, they don't conflict.


                                                  Best regards,
                                                  Tony.
                                                  --
                                                  A lot of people I know believe in positive thinking, and so do I. I
                                                  believe everything positively stinks.
                                                  -- Lew Col

                                                  --
                                                  You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                                  Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                                                  For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                                                  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vim_use+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words "REMOVE ME" as the subject.
                                                • Tony Mechelynck
                                                  ... Well (I just checked) at this instant the latest & greatest is 7.2.411. The :intro (or :int) command will tell you what _you_ have (and the few top lines
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Mar 28, 2010
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    On 07/02/10 19:45, Antony Scriven wrote:
                                                    > On 1 February 2010 03:26, pansz<panshizhu@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > [...]
                                                    > >
                                                    > > IMO most serious vim users should compile their own vim.
                                                    > > Only casual users should rely on distribution-specific
                                                    > > version.
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm busy enough that I don't even know what the latest
                                                    > version of Vim is, never mind compile my own. --Antony
                                                    >

                                                    Well (I just checked) at this instant the latest & greatest is 7.2.411.
                                                    The ":intro" (or :int) command will tell you what _you_ have (and the
                                                    few top lines of :version will tell it in more detail). I hope it isn't
                                                    5.x or earlier. ;-)


                                                    Best regards,
                                                    Tony.
                                                    --
                                                    There was a young poet named Dan,
                                                    Whose poetry never would scan.
                                                    When told this was so,
                                                    He said, "Yes, I know.
                                                    It's because I try to put every possible syllable into that last line
                                                    that I can."

                                                    --
                                                    You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
                                                    Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
                                                    For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

                                                    To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vim_use+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words "REMOVE ME" as the subject.
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.