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Re: Inputting the newer unicode characters

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  • Tony Mechelynck
    Kenneth Beesley wrote: [...] ... [...] It s the same on Linux: AFAIK, that s a platform-independent limitation of current (and past) versions of gvim. IIRC,
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 30, 2007
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      Kenneth Beesley wrote:
      [...]
      > 2. That (I believe) will put the Math Uppercase A into the buffer,
      > and you can write the buffer out to
      > file (e.g. in UTF-8) successfully, that doesn't mean
      > that vim can display/render it. The last I heard (months ago) was
      > that vim was generally unable
      > to render Supplementary chars, even if you specify a font that
      > contains the glyphs you need in the
      > supplementary area. The situation on Linux may be different.
      > Updates/corrections from vim experts would be welcome.
      [...]

      It's the same on Linux: AFAIK, that's a platform-independent limitation of
      current (and past) versions of gvim. IIRC, Edward L. Fox had said he'd look
      into it but I don't know how far he got.


      Best regards,
      Tony.
      --
      A wanton young lady from Wimley
      Reproached for not acting quite primly
      Said, "Heavens above!
      I know sex isn't love,
      But it's such an entrancing facsimile."

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    • Eze
      Thanks a lot to you both for your insights. Ken, if I may ask, what exactly do you use to see/work with/input unicode characters? All information will be
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 31, 2007
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        Thanks a lot to you both for your insights. Ken, if I may ask, what
        exactly do you use to see/work with/input unicode characters? All
        information will be appreciated, such as linux distribution, desktop
        manager, text editor, etcetera.

        Best regards,

        Eze


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      • Tony Mechelynck
        ... I don t know what Ken does, but I use gvim to input any unicode codepoints, and any browser (Firefox, SeaMonkey, or, depending on platform, Konqueror, IE,
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 31, 2007
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          Eze wrote:
          > Thanks a lot to you both for your insights. Ken, if I may ask, what
          > exactly do you use to see/work with/input unicode characters? All
          > information will be appreciated, such as linux distribution, desktop
          > manager, text editor, etcetera.
          >
          > Best regards,
          >
          > Eze

          I don't know what Ken does, but I use gvim to input any unicode codepoints,
          and any browser (Firefox, SeaMonkey, or, depending on platform, Konqueror, IE,
          Safari, etc.) to visualise those outside the BMP.


          Best regards,
          Tony.
          --
          Boob's Law:
          You always find something in the last place you look.

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        • Kenneth Beesley
          Hi Eze, For my Unicode editing needs, I try to survey the field once or twice a year. It s been a while since I last looked, so my information is probably out
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 4, 2007
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            Hi Eze,

            For my Unicode editing needs, I try to survey the field once or twice
            a year.
            It's been a while since I last looked, so my information is probably
            out of date.
            I can't keep up with all the Unicode-editing options.

            My Unicode-editing needs are somewhat unusual. I occasionally need to
            type Arabic script, and I definitely need Unicode combining
            diacritics and
            supplementary characters. I insist on being able to write my own
            input methods,
            and I'd like a solution that works in OS X, Linux and perhaps even
            Windows.
            I haven't found a perfect solution yet for my needs.

            On the Mac, which I use most often, TextEdit (supplied with OS X) does a
            much better than average job of _rendering_ the Unicode characters
            that you
            type. It has a built-in set of default fonts that so far have
            rendered almost
            anything that I've wanted to type, including Shavian and Deseret.
            Combining
            diacritics are (to the extent that I've tested them) handled
            acceptably, even
            rather well--this is a weak point in many other allegedly Unicode-
            savvy editors.
            However, if you are used to a full-featured text editor like vim
            or emacs, then TextEdit hardly seems like a text editor at all. Too
            limited in
            commands and overall functionality. I'm glad that TextEdit is
            available,
            but I use it reluctantly.

            TextEdit can use Apple Input Methods, many of which are supplied, and
            you can (with some difficulty) define your own so that you can type in
            Arabic, Cyrillic, Greek, Shavian, Deseret or whatever using your own
            favorite
            keyboard mapping or input method. I'm a firm believer that you ought to
            be able to define your own personal input methods (or keyboard-layout
            emulations)
            so that you can do it Your Way, even if dozens of input methods
            are already available. There are (or were) some bugs in the
            interpretation of Apple
            Input Methods, and fixing them seems to be very low priority at
            Apple. I need
            to recheck the status.

            I need to take another look at the commercial text editors available
            for OS X.

            I also work a lot with Unicode in XML, and I have purchased a license
            for the oXygen
            XML editor. oXygen is Java-based and so can use Java Input Methods,
            which
            are much better documented and easier to define than Apple Input
            Methods.
            oXygen can also be used to edit plain-text Unicode files. It renders
            Unicode
            to the extent that Java Swing text widgets render Unicode, which is
            pretty
            well. Installing new Unicode TrueType/OpenType fonts inside your Java
            installation, to allow the rendering of exotic characters, can be a
            challenge
            for the casual user.

            In addition to the commercial oXygen, there are a few other Java-based
            text editors that you might explore. I need to look at them again.
            Typically
            such editors are based on Java Swing text widgets, can use TrueType or
            OpenType fonts, and Java Input Methods. You can define your own Java
            Input Methods, but it'll be hard if you're not a hacker. The freely
            available kmap_ime.jar
            and kmap_ime_gui.jar are Java-Input-Method wrappers that allow you to
            use input methods expressed as Yudit-style .kmap files as if they were
            Java Input Methods. (Yudit .kmap files are very similar in format
            and semantics
            to the vim keymap files.)

            The Yudit editor is notable for its flexible handling of fonts,
            rendering Unicode, and
            allowing you to define your own input methods easily, but like
            TextEdit it hardly seems
            like a text editor at all to someone used to emacs or vim.

            Traditionally I've used emacs, but emacs does not use Unicode
            internally,
            instead providing what I find to be an awkward and very incomplete
            way of
            mapping between its internal MULE-encoded internal representation and
            Unicode files on input/output. In practice, the set of input methods
            available for emacs is MULE-based and closed. emacs has seriously
            dragged its
            feet on Unicode implementation.

            When it comes to Unicode implementation, vim is (in my opinion) much
            more
            promising than emacs. Vim seems to do an excellent internal job of
            reading, editing,
            and writing Unicode. Vim keymaps, for typing in Unicode chars, are
            _very_
            easy to define or modify, and they fit my needs perfectly. The
            remaining problems
            (from my point of view) with vim are these

            1. Failure to render Unicode characters from the supplementary area
            (I can't
            edit a screen full of question marks)
            2. The limitation to fixed-width fonts (A profound nuisance/
            limitation. Vim
            on Linux can use variable-width fonts, but it still works much better
            with fixed-
            width fonts.)

            On Linux, consider Java-based solutions such as oXygen. In Gnome
            there's
            gedit, but (the last time I looked) the definition and addition of
            new input
            methods for gedit was poorly documented and required some background
            hacking. I managed it once, but it's not acceptably easy or acceptably
            documented, in my opinion.

            I'm not acquainted with KDE (the alternative to Gnome in Linux). Is
            anyone
            out there acquainted with the kedit editor?

            I'm not acquainted with Microsoft/PC solutions.

            I need to look at OpenOffice solutions.

            Corrections/Comments/Suggestions would be Very Welcome

            I don't have an axe to grind--I just need to edit Unicode (including
            Arabic,
            Cyrillic, Supplementary Characters, Combining Diacritics) and I
            insist on
            being able to write my own input methods. I'd like a solution (with
            input
            methods) that works across multiple operating systems. I'd like to use
            TrueType/OpenType fonts, without a fixed-width limitation, and be
            able to
            use virtual fonts that combine glyphs from a set of user-designated real
            fonts. And I want a full-featured user-interface like that in vim or
            emacs.

            I would welcome pointers to other Unicode-editing solutions that I
            may have overlooked.

            Ken




            On 31 Aug 2007, at 15:48, Eze wrote:

            >
            > Thanks a lot to you both for your insights. Ken, if I may ask, what
            > exactly do you use to see/work with/input unicode characters? All
            > information will be appreciated, such as linux distribution, desktop
            > manager, text editor, etcetera.
            >
            > Best regards,
            >
            > Eze
            >
            >
            > >


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          • Kenneth Beesley
            Tony, If I were just typing in a Supplementary character here and there, or even an isolated word, I would use a similar solution. However, I m editing
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 4, 2007
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              Tony,

              If I were just typing in a Supplementary character here and there,
              or even an isolated word, I would use a similar solution.

              However, I'm editing (proofreading) chapter-length texts consisting of
              supplementary characters, and when I open such a text in vim and
              see nothing but a screenful of question marks, you can imagine
              my disappointment.

              Best wishes,

              Ken



              On 31 Aug 2007, at 23:19, Tony Mechelynck wrote:

              >
              > Eze wrote:
              >> Thanks a lot to you both for your insights. Ken, if I may ask, what
              >> exactly do you use to see/work with/input unicode characters? All
              >> information will be appreciated, such as linux distribution, desktop
              >> manager, text editor, etcetera.
              >>
              >> Best regards,
              >>
              >> Eze
              >
              > I don't know what Ken does, but I use gvim to input any unicode
              > codepoints,
              > and any browser (Firefox, SeaMonkey, or, depending on platform,
              > Konqueror, IE,
              > Safari, etc.) to visualise those outside the BMP.
              >
              >
              > Best regards,
              > Tony.
              > --
              > Boob's Law:
              > You always find something in the last place you look.
              >
              > >


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            • Nico Weber
              Hi, ... This should be fixed with the current svn version, at least for gvim (if you have the necessary fonts). Nico
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 23, 2007
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                Hi,

                > I'd like to switch over to vim, but I work a lot with exotic Unicode
                > characters
                > in the supplementary area. When I last looked into vim, and
                > experimented
                > with keymaps, I found that I could easily enter any Unicode char, and
                > save
                > the results to file---and the Unicode chars in the file were
                > correct. But as
                > long as I couldn't _see_ my character glyphs rendered on the screen,
                > vim wasn't
                > acceptable as an editor. All I could see were boxes (or question
                > marks--I can't
                > remember which).

                This should be fixed with the current svn version, at least for gvim
                (if you have the necessary fonts).

                Nico

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              • Kenneth Beesley
                Nico, This is great news. Many thanks for the message. Ken ... --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 23, 2007
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                  Nico,

                  This is great news. Many thanks for the message.

                  Ken


                  On 23 Sep 2007, at 09:46, Nico Weber wrote:

                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  >> I'd like to switch over to vim, but I work a lot with exotic Unicode
                  >> characters
                  >> in the supplementary area. When I last looked into vim, and
                  >> experimented
                  >> with keymaps, I found that I could easily enter any Unicode char, and
                  >> save
                  >> the results to file---and the Unicode chars in the file were
                  >> correct. But as
                  >> long as I couldn't _see_ my character glyphs rendered on the screen,
                  >> vim wasn't
                  >> acceptable as an editor. All I could see were boxes (or question
                  >> marks--I can't
                  >> remember which).
                  >
                  > This should be fixed with the current svn version, at least for gvim
                  > (if you have the necessary fonts).
                  >
                  > Nico
                  >
                  > >


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                • Tony Mechelynck
                  ... Yes: even for people who don t use SVN (but CVS, A-A-P, ftp, whatever), it is patch 7.1.116, and works for me. Best regards, Tony. -- Water? Never touch
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 23, 2007
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                    Nico Weber wrote:
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    >> I'd like to switch over to vim, but I work a lot with exotic Unicode
                    >> characters
                    >> in the supplementary area. When I last looked into vim, and
                    >> experimented
                    >> with keymaps, I found that I could easily enter any Unicode char, and
                    >> save
                    >> the results to file---and the Unicode chars in the file were
                    >> correct. But as
                    >> long as I couldn't _see_ my character glyphs rendered on the screen,
                    >> vim wasn't
                    >> acceptable as an editor. All I could see were boxes (or question
                    >> marks--I can't
                    >> remember which).
                    >
                    > This should be fixed with the current svn version, at least for gvim
                    > (if you have the necessary fonts).
                    >
                    > Nico

                    Yes: even for people who don't use SVN (but CVS, A-A-P, ftp, whatever), it is
                    patch 7.1.116, and works for me.


                    Best regards,
                    Tony.
                    --
                    "Water? Never touch the stuff! Fish fuck in it."
                    -- W. C. Fields

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