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[vim-multibyte] Re: Screen is scrolled up by FEP.

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  • Bram Moolenaar
    ... It looks like this patch reserves one line for FEP. That s not very nice, there is less room for the buffer text. And doesn t this cause problems when
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 15, 2000
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      Yasuhiro Matsumoto wrote:

      > When cursor reach FEP(Front End Processor) line on consle mode,
      > if starting FEP then screen is scrolled up.
      > (For example, When you edit command...)
      >
      > I could not solve this problem, so I made patch for keeping FEP line.
      > This solution made screen-size decrease.

      It looks like this patch reserves one line for FEP. That's not very nice,
      there is less room for the buffer text. And doesn't this cause problems when
      scrolling text up?

      I recall this was changed before. Perhaps we should write down the arguments
      and descisions before changing it again. That avoids that changes are made
      while forgetting some implication.

      --
      I think that you'll agree that engineers are very effective in their social
      interactions. It's the "normal" people who are nuts.
      (Scott Adams - The Dilbert principle)

      /-/-- Bram Moolenaar --- Bram@... --- http://www.moolenaar.net --\-\
      \ \ Vim: http://www.vim.org ICCF Holland: http://www.vim.org/iccf / /
    • Yasuhiro Matsumoto
      ... I explain why I made this. When I edit command, ... ... If starting FEP, then ... ... it scroll text up. Still more, if typing some, then ... ... it make
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 15, 2000
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        Bram Moolenaar wrote:
        > It looks like this patch reserves one line for FEP. That's not very nice,
        > there is less room for the buffer text. And doesn't this cause problems when
        > scrolling text up?

        I explain why I made this.
        When I edit command, ...

        |~ |
        |~ |
        |~ |
        |~ |
        |:r C:\Winnt\..............|
        |...Sample\_ |
        ----------------------------

        If starting FEP, then ...

        |~ |
        |~ |
        |~ |
        |~ |
        |:r C:\Winnt\..............|
        |...Sample\_ |
        | [FEP]|
        ----------------------------

        it scroll text up.
        Still more, if typing some, then ...

        |~ |
        |~ |
        |~ |
        |:r C:\Winnt\..............|
        |...Sample\ |
        | Samp.txt_ [FEP]|
        ----------------------------

        it make text shift.

        This cause is that cursor can move to bottom line.
        If I use on full screen, then I must use on 80x25.
        So It is better that there is less room for the buffer text.
        --------------------------------------------------------

        But it is not necessarily that all FEP use bottom line.
        Certainly this is not perfect solution. X-(

        Then, How about the renaming that declare 'USE_CONSOLE_IME'.
        For example, changing one's name to 'USE_BOTTOM_LINE_FEP'
        I do not mind that this will be extension declare.

        > I recall this was changed before. Perhaps we should write down the arguments
        > and descisions before changing it again. That avoids that changes are made
        > while forgetting some implication.

        I think this small patch will be the solution for many FEP user.
        ----------------------------------------------------------
        BTW,
        I am introducing 'Vim' to my coworkers.
        Some ones said 'It is bravo!!'. :-)
      • Bram Moolenaar
        ... I wonder when you leave FEP. Does it stay there as long as you edit the command line, or is it just used to enter a few characters? In the last case, it
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 16, 2000
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          Yasuhiro Matsumoto wrote:

          > it scroll text up.
          > Still more, if typing some, then ...
          >
          > |~ |
          > |~ |
          > |~ |
          > |:r C:\Winnt\..............|
          > |...Sample\ |
          > | Samp.txt_ [FEP]|
          > ----------------------------
          >
          > it make text shift.

          I wonder when you leave FEP. Does it stay there as long as you edit the
          command line, or is it just used to enter a few characters? In the last case,
          it should be possible to redraw the command line when leaving FEP. You can
          use redrawcmd() for this. cmdline_row may need to be adjusted to compensate
          for the scrolling.

          If FEP stays there while editing the command line, you really need that extra
          line.

          > But it is not necessarily that all FEP use bottom line.
          > Certainly this is not perfect solution. X-(

          We can try to get close to perfect, perhaps.

          > Then, How about the renaming that declare 'USE_CONSOLE_IME'.
          > For example, changing one's name to 'USE_BOTTOM_LINE_FEP'
          > I do not mind that this will be extension declare.

          That would be possible, but it's better when it works for everybody without
          the need to dig around in the code and docs to find out about this #define.

          > > I recall this was changed before. Perhaps we should write down the
          > > arguments and descisions before changing it again. That avoids that
          > > changes are made while forgetting some implication.
          >
          > I think this small patch will be the solution for many FEP user.

          I was thinking of a list of decisions with arguments, especially for the
          multi-byte code. That's because I don't understand much of this myself, which
          has the risk that I break something when making changes.

          --
          hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
          6. You refuse to go to a vacation spot with no electricity and no phone lines.

          /-/-- Bram Moolenaar --- Bram@... --- http://www.moolenaar.net --\-\
          \ \ Vim: http://www.vim.org ICCF Holland: http://www.vim.org/iccf / /
        • Yasuhiro Matsumoto
          ... After leaving FEP, scrolled text stay there until calling redrawcmd(). ########################################## Before starting FEP ... ( $ is
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 16, 2000
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            Bram Moolenaar wrote:
            > I wonder when you leave FEP.
            > Does it stay there as long as you edit the command line,
            > or is it just used to enter a few characters?
            > In the last case, it should be possible to redraw the command line when leaving FEP.
            > You can use redrawcmd() for this.
            > cmdline_row may need to be adjusted to compensate for the scrolling.

            After leaving FEP, scrolled text stay there until calling redrawcmd().
            ##########################################

            Before starting FEP
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |:r C:\Winnt\..............|
            |...............\$$$$$$$$_ |
            ----------------------------
            ( '$' is multi-byte )

            When starting FEP
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |:r C:\Winnt\..............|
            |...............\$$ |
            | $$$[FEP]|
            ----------------------------
            ( '[FEP]' is guide )

            When leaving FEP
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |~ |
            |:r C:\Winnt\..............|
            |...............\$$ |
            | $$$$$$_ |
            ----------------------------

            ##########################################

            It happen when starting FEP.

            Still more,
            it is impossible that get the event when starting( or leaving ) FEP.
            and it is impossible that overwrite character to '[FEP]'.

            > If FEP stays there while editing the command line, you really need that extra
            > line.
            > We can try to get close to perfect, perhaps.

            Multi-byte user often use file's name that have multi-byte character.
            So they use FEP many time while editing the command line.

            I know many FEP( DOS, Windows, UNIX etc ).
            and I think 'MS-DOS' is extra.

            Many FEP's guide efect screen(or terminal, window) directly.
            But 'MS-DOS's it efect screen-buffer( bottom line ).

            It is not common library that can control all FEP.

            > > Then, How about the renaming that declare 'USE_CONSOLE_IME'.
            > > For example, changing one's name to 'USE_BOTTOM_LINE_FEP'
            > > I do not mind that this will be extension declare.
            >
            > That would be possible, but it's better when it works for everybody without
            > the need to dig around in the code and docs to find out about this #define.

            How about this ?

            nmake -f Makefile.w32 FEP=yes
            --> Console version with FEP

            > > I think this small patch will be the solution for many FEP user.
            >
            > I was thinking of a list of decisions with arguments, especially for the
            > multi-byte code. That's because I don't understand much of this myself, which
            > has the risk that I break something when making changes.

            Hmmm ..., I want to hear other's idea.
          • Bram Moolenaar
            Yasuhiro Matsumoto wrote: [about FEP scrolling the screen up one line] ... Hmm, if it is impossible to detect entering/leaving FEP, many programs must have
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 17, 2000
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              Yasuhiro Matsumoto wrote:

              [about FEP scrolling the screen up one line]

              > it is impossible that get the event when starting( or leaving ) FEP.
              > and it is impossible that overwrite character to '[FEP]'.

              Hmm, if it is impossible to detect entering/leaving FEP, many programs must
              have problems with FEP scrolling up the screen one line! Perhaps there is
              some other solution.

              It might help if you can direct us to an explanation of how FEP works (in
              English please!).

              > Many FEP's guide efect screen(or terminal, window) directly.
              > But 'MS-DOS's it efect screen-buffer( bottom line ).

              Hmm, perhaps it's a bug in FEP?

              > > That would be possible, but it's better when it works for everybody without
              > > the need to dig around in the code and docs to find out about this #define.
              >
              > How about this ?
              >
              > nmake -f Makefile.w32 FEP=yes
              > --> Console version with FEP

              Still has the problem that the person compiling Vim has to know about this
              argument. And people using the distributed executable won't be able to do
              this. It's only a solution for a small group of people who know what they are
              doing (like you).

              --
              hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
              23. You can't call your mother...she doesn't have a modem.

              /-/-- Bram Moolenaar --- Bram@... --- http://www.moolenaar.net --\-\
              \ \ Vim: http://www.vim.org ICCF Holland: http://www.vim.org/iccf / /
            • Yasuhiro Matsumoto
              ... Yes, many programs have this problems. X-( This is a reason that many competent programs can t distribute to multi-byte user. ( A few programs support some
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 17, 2000
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                Bram Moolenaar wrote:
                > Hmm, if it is impossible to detect entering/leaving FEP, many programs must
                > have problems with FEP scrolling up the screen one line! Perhaps there is
                > some other solution.

                Yes, many programs have this problems. X-(
                This is a reason that many competent programs can't distribute to
                multi-byte user.
                ( A few programs support some FEP. )

                > It might help if you can direct us to an explanation of how FEP works (in
                > English please!).

                FEP help multi-byte user when inputing multi-byte. This is indispensable
                for
                multi-byte user. For example, The path name of 'Windows-Desktop' is ...

                C:\Winnt\Profiles\.....\Desktop ( May be )

                But multi-byte user's it is not 'Desktop'. It have multi-byte character.
                So if I want to change directory 'Desktop' on console, I must use FEP.

                On my environment, FEP is entered with key 'Alt-Kanji'. ( 106keyboard )
                It is left with same key. But there is a few FEP used different key.

                When entering FEP, it show guide of FEP. Then most FEP use a bottom
                line.
                ( Some FEP may not use... )
                When entering FEP, If I type some keys, then it show temporary
                characters.
                After editing some temporary words and type 'Enter', FEP playback my
                written.
                While entering FEP, it use a bottom line for showing the status of FEP.

                If I move cursor to bottom line and enter FEP on console, it make force
                that
                scrolling the screen up one line for showing guide. But FEP don't put
                back
                when leaving.
                FEP is made by maker with unique method. So it have no limitation. and
                there is
                no common specifications.
                Certainly there is controler for some FEP, but it is a only that working
                some.

                Still more, there is different between 'DOS console' and 'Win32
                console'.
                DOS must screen size '80x25'. So guide on DOS use line 25 always. So if
                cursor is
                located at line 25, the screen scroll up with entering FEP.
                Against it, guide on Win32 use bottom line of console window. In short,
                FEP show
                guide at bottom of visible area.
                So if cursor is not located at bottom line of console and is located at
                bottom line
                of visible area, It is not happen. FEP make visible area scroll only.
                In other words, if reserving a bottom line for guide, the screen don't
                scroll up
                with entering FEP.

                This is a reason that I reserve a bottom line.

                Sorry, I cound not write english well. X-(

                > > Many FEP's guide efect screen(or terminal, window) directly.
                > > But 'MS-DOS's it efect screen-buffer( bottom line ).
                >
                > Hmm, perhaps it's a bug in FEP?

                This is a unique method by FEP maker.
                ( This may be a method by Microsoft )

                > > > That would be possible, but it's better when it works for everybody without
                > > > the need to dig around in the code and docs to find out about this #define.
                > >
                > > How about this ?
                > >
                > > nmake -f Makefile.w32 FEP=yes
                > > --> Console version with FEP
                >
                > Still has the problem that the person compiling Vim has to know about this
                > argument. And people using the distributed executable won't be able to do
                > this. It's only a solution for a small group of people who know what they are
                > doing (like you).

                I understand.
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