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Re: Document Icons

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  • Tobia Conforto
    ... I believe this is an important point. If you look at XCode s documen icons at 16x16 (screenshot below, to the left) you will see that you can tell at a
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 1, 2008
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      björn wrote:
      > Finally, I really think we need to do something about the smaller
      > sized icons: they are completely illegible.

      I believe this is an important point.

      If you look at XCode's documen icons at 16x16 (screenshot below, to
      the left) you will see that you can tell at a glance whether the file
      is .C source code, .H header, or anything else of import. The large
      (relatively to the icon size) and colored text, "C" or "H", helps a lot.

      Larger icons can still use the Preview paradigm (blank paper + app
      icon + type text below) but IMHO the smaller icons should follow what
      XCode does.

      If we want people to be able to tell the files that are associated
      with Vim from those associated with XCode, we can come up with a
      different graphical hint, such as a colored border--this is just the
      first idea that came to my mind:


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    • Andrew Long
      ... ... I m not szo sure that it s important. What s important to me is that the file is a C source file, or a BASH script, or a SQL script. I can make
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 1, 2008
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        On 1 Dec 2008, at 11:07, Tobia Conforto wrote:

        > björn wrote:
        >> Finally, I really think we need to do something about the smaller
        >> sized icons: they are completely illegible.
        >
        > I believe this is an important point.
        >
        <snip/>
        > If we want people to be able to tell the files that are associated
        > with Vim from those associated with XCode, we can come up with a
        > different graphical hint, such as a colored border--this is just the
        > first idea that came to my mind:
        >

        I'm not szo sure that it's important. What's important to me is that the
        file is a C source file, or a BASH script, or a SQL script. I can make a
        choice about which application to open them with, once I know what the
        file type IS

        Regards, Andy

        --
        Andrew Long
        andrew dot long at mac dot com


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      • Tobia Conforto
        ... Absolutely. Maybe it wasn t clear from my post, butI agree that the file type comes first. XCode-like colors (C is blue, H is red...) help with that. Tobia
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 1, 2008
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          Andrew Long wrote:
          >> If we want people to be able to tell the files that are associated
          >> with Vim from those associated with XCode, we can come up with a
          >> different graphical hint, such as a colored border
          >
          > I'm not szo sure that it's important. What's important to me is that
          > the file is a C source file, or a BASH script, or a SQL script. I
          > can make a choice about which application to open them with, once I
          > know what the file type IS

          Absolutely.
          Maybe it wasn't clear from my post, butI agree that the file type
          comes first.
          XCode-like colors (C is blue, H is red...) help with that.


          Tobia

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        • Nico Weber
          ... I agree XCode s 16x16 icons are nice. The main reason why I didn t try to go with 16x16 icons similar to them is that I couldn t come up with a way to
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 1, 2008
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            > > Finally, I really think we need to do something about the smaller  
            > > sized icons: they are completely illegible.
            >
            > I believe this is an important point.
            >
            > If you look at XCode's documen icons at 16x16 (screenshot below, to  
            > the left) you will see that you can tell at a glance whether the file  
            > is .C source code, .H header, or anything else of import.  The large  
            > (relatively to the icon size) and colored text, "C" or "H", helps a lot.

            I agree XCode's 16x16 icons are nice. The main reason why I didn't try
            to go with 16x16 icons similar to them is that I couldn't come up with
            a way to handle longer extensions (e.g. "html").

            > Larger icons can still use the Preview paradigm (blank paper + app  
            > icon + type text below) but IMHO the smaller icons should follow what  
            > XCode does.

            It's not just the "Preview paradigm": Lots of other apps do this, too.
            Examples include Safari, CSSEdit, Instruments, Pages, Keynote,
            QuickTime Player, iCal, Coda, etc. Some of those programs leave the
            extension text out in the 16x16 variant and include only the icon
            (Instruments, CSSEdit).

            I think the 32x32 variant is still legible, so we're only talking
            about 16x16 here.

            XCode's approach works fine with 1-char extensions (h, c), ok with 2-
            char extensions (mm, rb, ...), not-so-great with three chars (e.g.
            expfile.icns in the XCode bundle), not-at-all with 4-char extensions
            (nasmfile.icns).

            > If we want people to be able to tell the files that are associated  
            > with Vim from those associated with XCode, we can come up with a  
            > different graphical hint, such as a colored border--this is just the  
            > first idea that came to my mind:

            Perhaps we could also put the green square behind the letters (with a
            very low contrast). But: It's different from all other apps, and I
            need a good suggestion how to handle document types with a long
            extension that don't have an obvious shorter version ("Python" can
            become "Py" without problems, but what about, say, "html", "xhtml",
            "dylan", "fscript", "applescript").

            Nico
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          • björn
            ... I like the newer 32x32 icons too...I find it easy to read the VIM written on them. ... I can t think of any way to deal with the 16x16 icons in a
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 2, 2008
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              2008/12/1 Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...>:
              >
              > I think the 32x32 variant is still legible, so we're only talking
              > about 16x16 here.

              I like the newer 32x32 icons too...I find it easy to read the "VIM"
              written on them.

              > XCode's approach works fine with 1-char extensions (h, c), ok with 2-
              > char extensions (mm, rb, ...), not-so-great with three chars (e.g.
              > expfile.icns in the XCode bundle), not-at-all with 4-char extensions
              > (nasmfile.icns).
              >
              >> If we want people to be able to tell the files that are associated
              >> with Vim from those associated with XCode, we can come up with a
              >> different graphical hint, such as a colored border--this is just the
              >> first idea that came to my mind:
              >
              > Perhaps we could also put the green square behind the letters (with a
              > very low contrast). But: It's different from all other apps, and I
              > need a good suggestion how to handle document types with a long
              > extension that don't have an obvious shorter version ("Python" can
              > become "Py" without problems, but what about, say, "html", "xhtml",
              > "dylan", "fscript", "applescript").

              I can't think of any way to deal with the 16x16 icons in a consistent
              way so I suggest we simply put the green diamond (without the "V") on
              the 16x16 icon and leave out the extension. (Even the "V" is hard to
              distinguish at 16x16 which is why I think we should leave it out.)

              The one-letter (and maybe two-letter) extensions could have icons
              similar to the XCode ones, but as for the rest I think there is not
              much we can do. Maybe we can experiment with this more later on?

              Björn

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            • Nico Weber
              ... Sounds good. Let s get the original, blurry version merged first. After that, I ll prepare a patch for the nice 32x32 version, and when that is merged,
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 2, 2008
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                > The one-letter (and maybe two-letter) extensions could have icons
                > similar to the XCode ones, but as for the rest I think there is not
                > much we can do.  Maybe we can experiment with this more later on?

                Sounds good. Let's get the original, blurry version merged first.
                After that, I'll prepare a patch for the "nice 32x32" version, and
                when that is merged, I'll see if I have come up with nice 16x16 until
                then.

                Nico
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              • björn
                ... Nico, I ve been trying to get the icon making stuff to work on Tiger and it is not entirely unproblematic. Problems with gettng makeicns to compile: 1.
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 12, 2008
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                  2008/12/2 Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...>:
                  >
                  >> The one-letter (and maybe two-letter) extensions could have icons
                  >> similar to the XCode ones, but as for the rest I think there is not
                  >> much we can do. Maybe we can experiment with this more later on?
                  >
                  > Sounds good. Let's get the original, blurry version merged first.
                  > After that, I'll prepare a patch for the "nice 32x32" version, and
                  > when that is merged, I'll see if I have come up with nice 16x16 until
                  > then.

                  Nico,

                  I've been trying to get the icon making stuff to work on Tiger and it
                  is not entirely unproblematic.

                  Problems with gettng 'makeicns' to compile:

                  1. makeicns.m won't compile because of:
                  i) use of Obj-C 2.0 iterators in getBitmapImageRepOfSize() (only one spot)
                  ii) kIconServices512PixelDataARGB is not defined (can be found in
                  IconFamily.m)
                  2. can't link makeicns because Intel versions of libraries not present
                  on PPC machines (ok if "-arch i386 is removed from the Makefile)

                  I did get the program to compile&link after fixing those two things
                  (that was the easy part).

                  Problems with make_icons.py:

                  1. I get this: "ImportError: No Module named Foundation". It seems
                  that the Foundation module is 10.5 only...is there any way to work
                  around this?

                  I'm not very familiary with Python so I couldn't get this step to work at all.

                  There is also a problem with 512 icons: the generic document icon does
                  not come in 512x512 on Tiger (only 128x128 as you suspected) and I
                  don't think the "IconFamily.m" module handles 512 icons on Tiger
                  either (see line 390).

                  It would be great if you could work around these issues on Tiger (by
                  only making 128 icons unless compiled on Leopard). If you can't then
                  I guess we'll have to add the .icns files to the repo. (?)

                  Björn

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                • Nico Weber
                  ... Snap, Tiger doesn t support pyobjc. ... I don t think this is a good idea: Every time we change the generation script, the repo grows a few MB. And every
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 12, 2008
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                    > I've been trying to get the icon making stuff to work on Tiger and it
                    > is not entirely unproblematic.

                    > Problems with make_icons.py:
                    >
                    > 1. I get this: "ImportError: No Module named Foundation".  It seems
                    > that the Foundation module is 10.5 only...is there any way to work
                    > around this?

                    Snap, Tiger doesn't support pyobjc.

                    > It would be great if you could work around these issues on Tiger (by
                    > only making 128 icons unless compiled on Leopard).  If you can't then
                    > I guess we'll have to add the .icns files to the repo. (?)

                    I don't think this is a good idea: Every time we change the generation
                    script, the repo grows a few MB. And every contributor has a local
                    copy of the repo. What if I simply change the script to create
                    symlinks to the MacVim icon when it runs on Tiger? Then people
                    building on Tiger will have somewhat useless document icons, but that
                    sounds like the lesser of two evil.

                    Nico
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                  • björn
                    ... Yeah, I d like to avoid this too. ... If there is nothing that you can use instead of pyobjc then I guess this is an ok compromise (anybody using Tiger who
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 13, 2008
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                      2008/12/13 Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...>:
                      >
                      >> It would be great if you could work around these issues on Tiger (by
                      >> only making 128 icons unless compiled on Leopard). If you can't then
                      >> I guess we'll have to add the .icns files to the repo. (?)
                      >
                      > I don't think this is a good idea: Every time we change the generation
                      > script, the repo grows a few MB. And every contributor has a local
                      > copy of the repo.

                      Yeah, I'd like to avoid this too.

                      >What if I simply change the script to create
                      > symlinks to the MacVim icon when it runs on Tiger? Then people
                      > building on Tiger will have somewhat useless document icons, but that
                      > sounds like the lesser of two evil.

                      If there is nothing that you can use instead of pyobjc then I guess
                      this is an ok compromise (anybody using Tiger who has an objection to
                      this, please speak up). I can also put an archive with all the
                      document icons on the project web page so that anybody on Tiger can
                      download them manually if they so wish.

                      The most important thing is that MacVim will build on Tiger without any hiccups.

                      Björn

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                    • Ben Schmidt
                      ... Could we keep one generic MacVim document icon in the repo and link to that, just so they look like documents, not applications? Or is that what you meant?
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 13, 2008
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                        >> What if I simply change the script to create
                        >> symlinks to the MacVim icon when it runs on Tiger? Then people
                        >> building on Tiger will have somewhat useless document icons, but that
                        >> sounds like the lesser of two evil.
                        >
                        > If there is nothing that you can use instead of pyobjc then I guess
                        > this is an ok compromise (anybody using Tiger who has an objection to
                        > this, please speak up).

                        Could we keep one generic MacVim document icon in the repo and link to
                        that, just so they look like documents, not applications? Or is that
                        what you meant?

                        Even if there is something that can be used instead of PyObjC, then this
                        seems like a good step to take until/unless someone has time and
                        inclination to implement in something else.

                        > I can also put an archive with all the
                        > document icons on the project web page so that anybody on Tiger can
                        > download them manually if they so wish.

                        Sounds good.

                        Ben.




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                      • Steven Michalske
                        ... use a git subproject? then it could link to the latest copy and would not require a growing repo. use a download? compiled resources don t always need to
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 13, 2008
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                          On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:28 AM, björn wrote:

                          >>>
                          >>> It would be great if you could work around these issues on Tiger (by
                          >>> only making 128 icons unless compiled on Leopard). If you can't
                          >>> then
                          >>> I guess we'll have to add the .icns files to the repo. (?)
                          >>
                          >> I don't think this is a good idea: Every time we change the
                          >> generation
                          >> script, the repo grows a few MB. And every contributor has a local
                          >> copy of the repo.
                          >
                          > Yeah, I'd like to avoid this too.

                          use a git subproject?
                          then it could link to the latest copy and would not require a growing
                          repo.

                          use a download?
                          compiled resources don't always need to be in a source control
                          repository.

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                        • Nico Weber
                          ... The appended version uses the generic document icon on Tiger. Nico --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 14, 2008
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                            >>> What if I simply change the script to create
                            >>> symlinks to the MacVim icon when it runs on Tiger? Then people
                            >>> building on Tiger will have somewhat useless document icons, but
                            >>> that
                            >>> sounds like the lesser of two evil.
                            >>
                            >> If there is nothing that you can use instead of pyobjc then I guess
                            >> this is an ok compromise (anybody using Tiger who has an objection to
                            >> this, please speak up).
                            >
                            > Could we keep one generic MacVim document icon in the repo and link to
                            > that, just so they look like documents, not applications? Or is that
                            > what you meant?
                            >
                            > Even if there is something that can be used instead of PyObjC, then
                            > this
                            > seems like a good step to take until/unless someone has time and
                            > inclination to implement in something else.

                            The appended version uses the generic document icon on Tiger.

                            Nico


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                          • Nico Weber
                            ... Since they are included with MacVim anyways, that doesn t seem necessary and means more work for you. Nico
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 14, 2008
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                              >> I can also put an archive with all the
                              >> document icons on the project web page so that anybody on Tiger can
                              >> download them manually if they so wish.

                              Since they are included with MacVim anyways, that doesn't seem
                              necessary and means more work for you.

                              Nico

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                            • björn
                              ... Thanks, I can confirm that it works. It is a bit of a shame that building on Tiger gives you a blank (i.e. without the Vim diamond on top) generic
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 15, 2008
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                                2008/12/15 Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...>:
                                >
                                > The appended version uses the generic document icon on Tiger.

                                Thanks, I can confirm that it works. It is a bit of a shame that
                                building on Tiger gives you a blank (i.e. without the Vim diamond on
                                top) generic document icon though...

                                The remaining problem is to get makeicns to build with the rest of the
                                project. It is not possible to simply call the makefile because
                                linking fails if you pass "-arch i386" on PPC/Tiger. The best
                                solution would be to build natively under the Debug/Release
                                configurations and build universal (if possible) under the Universal
                                configuration. Does anybody have any ideas of how to do this? (I
                                don't much enjoy figuring these sort of things out myself I'm afraid.)

                                Björn

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                              • Nico Weber
                                ... What about simply leaving away the -arch flags in the Makefile? makeicns is only used during build-time, so it s ok if it s built only for the architecture
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 15, 2008
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                                  > The remaining problem is to get makeicns to build with the rest of the
                                  > project. It is not possible to simply call the makefile because
                                  > linking fails if you pass "-arch i386" on PPC/Tiger.

                                  What about simply leaving away the -arch flags in the Makefile?
                                  makeicns is only used during build-time, so it's ok if it's built only
                                  for the architecture of the mac running the build.

                                  Nico

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                                • björn
                                  ... Duh! Of course...why didn t I think of that? Thanks, Björn --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 15, 2008
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                                    2008/12/16 Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...>:
                                    >
                                    >> The remaining problem is to get makeicns to build with the rest of the
                                    >> project. It is not possible to simply call the makefile because
                                    >> linking fails if you pass "-arch i386" on PPC/Tiger.
                                    >
                                    > What about simply leaving away the -arch flags in the Makefile?
                                    > makeicns is only used during build-time, so it's ok if it's built only
                                    > for the architecture of the mac running the build.

                                    Duh! Of course...why didn't I think of that?

                                    Thanks,
                                    Björn

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