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Re: Does MacVim drop characters?

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  • Jonathon Mah
    ... Not knowing anything about it, I d venture a guess it might be e55c4
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 1, 2008
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      On 2008-10-01, at 14:43, Nico Weber wrote:

      > Did my typing skills get worse, or does MacVim drop keystrokes since
      > snapshot 35?


      Not knowing anything about it, I'd venture a guess it might be e55c4

      <http://repo.or.cz/w/MacVim.git?a=commitdiff;h=e55c4ffec3bed90e27639b5e9943386621b63a59
      >



      Jonathon Mah
      me@...



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    • Ted Pavlic
      I have noticed the same problem. It is something specific to snapshot 35. Things have gotten WAY worse since I ve updated. --Ted ... -- Ted Pavlic
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 1, 2008
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        I have noticed the same problem. It is something specific to snapshot
        35. Things have gotten WAY worse since I've updated.

        --Ted

        Nico Weber wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > when I'm editing a large markdown file, MacVim gets really sluggish at
        > times (that's the fault of my markdown syntax file, ordinary vim also
        > gets really sluggish). Sometimes, I type faster than the screen
        > updates for a few seconds and the characters on screen only catch up
        > after I make a typing pause.
        >
        > With MacVim Snapshot 35, I have the impression that severals of the
        > keys I type during the time MacVim catches up with the input simply
        > get dropped. For example, if I type in
        >
        > "Let's see if MacVim drops characters if I type fast."
        >
        > I actually get
        >
        > "Let's see if MacVim drops characters if I typ fst."
        >
        > Did my typing skills get worse, or does MacVim drop keystrokes since
        > snapshot 35?
        >
        > Nico
        >
        > >
        >

        --
        Ted Pavlic <ted@...>

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      • Ted Pavlic
        Additionally, I notice that the problem... *) is worse in insert mode when my new text is pushing characters to the right of it. That is, it s not as bad
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 1, 2008
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          Additionally, I notice that the problem...

          *) is worse in insert mode when my new text is "pushing" characters to
          the right of it. That is, it's not as bad when there's empty line in
          front of the cursor.

          *) also occurs in search mode. That is, typing "/Of course" in command
          mode turns into "/Ofcse".

          Again, this is a problem I only notice with Snapshot 35. I'm thinking of
          going back to the last release I had to see if that gets rid of the
          problem. I'm pretty sure it will.

          --Ted

          Ted Pavlic wrote:
          > I have noticed the same problem. It is something specific to snapshot
          > 35. Things have gotten WAY worse since I've updated.
          >
          > --Ted
          >
          > Nico Weber wrote:
          >> Hi,
          >>
          >> when I'm editing a large markdown file, MacVim gets really sluggish at
          >> times (that's the fault of my markdown syntax file, ordinary vim also
          >> gets really sluggish). Sometimes, I type faster than the screen
          >> updates for a few seconds and the characters on screen only catch up
          >> after I make a typing pause.
          >>
          >> With MacVim Snapshot 35, I have the impression that severals of the
          >> keys I type during the time MacVim catches up with the input simply
          >> get dropped. For example, if I type in
          >>
          >> "Let's see if MacVim drops characters if I type fast."
          >>
          >> I actually get
          >>
          >> "Let's see if MacVim drops characters if I typ fst."
          >>
          >> Did my typing skills get worse, or does MacVim drop keystrokes since
          >> snapshot 35?
          >>
          >> Nico
          >>
          >> >>
          >>
          >

          --
          Ted Pavlic <ted@...>

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        • Ted Pavlic
          Going back to MacVim-7.2-stable-1.2 fixes the problem. /Of course becomes /Of course . --Ted ... -- Ted Pavlic
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 1, 2008
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            Going back to MacVim-7.2-stable-1.2 fixes the problem. "/Of course"
            becomes "/Of course".

            --Ted

            Ted Pavlic wrote:
            >
            > Additionally, I notice that the problem...
            >
            > *) is worse in insert mode when my new text is "pushing" characters to
            > the right of it. That is, it's not as bad when there's empty line in
            > front of the cursor.
            >
            > *) also occurs in search mode. That is, typing "/Of course" in command
            > mode turns into "/Ofcse".
            >
            > Again, this is a problem I only notice with Snapshot 35. I'm thinking of
            > going back to the last release I had to see if that gets rid of the
            > problem. I'm pretty sure it will.
            >
            > --Ted
            >
            > Ted Pavlic wrote:
            >> I have noticed the same problem. It is something specific to snapshot
            >> 35. Things have gotten WAY worse since I've updated.
            >>
            >> --Ted
            >>
            >> Nico Weber wrote:
            >>> Hi,
            >>>
            >>> when I'm editing a large markdown file, MacVim gets really sluggish at
            >>> times (that's the fault of my markdown syntax file, ordinary vim also
            >>> gets really sluggish). Sometimes, I type faster than the screen
            >>> updates for a few seconds and the characters on screen only catch up
            >>> after I make a typing pause.
            >>>
            >>> With MacVim Snapshot 35, I have the impression that severals of the
            >>> keys I type during the time MacVim catches up with the input simply
            >>> get dropped. For example, if I type in
            >>>
            >>> "Let's see if MacVim drops characters if I type fast."
            >>>
            >>> I actually get
            >>>
            >>> "Let's see if MacVim drops characters if I typ fst."
            >>>
            >>> Did my typing skills get worse, or does MacVim drop keystrokes since
            >>> snapshot 35?
            >>>
            >>> Nico
            >>>
            >

            --
            Ted Pavlic <ted@...>

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          • björn
            ... Ouch, that is pretty bad. I guess your computer is a lot slower than mine. So the problem is this: Previously the backend would process one event at a
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 1, 2008
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              2008/10/1 Ted Pavlic <ted@...>:
              >
              >>> when I'm editing a large markdown file, MacVim gets really sluggish at
              >>> times (that's the fault of my markdown syntax file, ordinary vim also
              >>> gets really sluggish). Sometimes, I type faster than the screen
              >>> updates for a few seconds and the characters on screen only catch up
              >>> after I make a typing pause.
              >>>
              >>> With MacVim Snapshot 35, I have the impression that severals of the
              >>> keys I type during the time MacVim catches up with the input simply
              >>> get dropped. For example, if I type in
              >>>
              >>> "Let's see if MacVim drops characters if I type fast."
              >>>
              >>> I actually get
              >>>
              >>> "Let's see if MacVim drops characters if I typ fst."
              >>>
              >>> Did my typing skills get worse, or does MacVim drop keystrokes since
              >>> snapshot 35?
              > Additionally, I notice that the problem...
              >
              > *) is worse in insert mode when my new text is "pushing" characters to
              > the right of it. That is, it's not as bad when there's empty line in
              > front of the cursor.
              >
              > *) also occurs in search mode. That is, typing "/Of course" in command
              > mode turns into "/Ofcse".
              >
              > Again, this is a problem I only notice with Snapshot 35. I'm thinking of
              > going back to the last release I had to see if that gets rid of the
              > problem. I'm pretty sure it will.

              Ouch, that is pretty bad. I guess your computer is a lot slower than mine.

              So the problem is this: Previously the backend would process one
              event at a time and the DO system kept a queue. Unless a _lot_ of
              input was generated rapidly this meant no input would be dropped.
              However, if too much arrived at once MacVim would beach ball -- this
              has been a problem in many instances in the past.

              Now, this changed with snap 35 so that all events are popped off the
              DO queue at once and kept in a queue in the backend. This cures the
              beach ball problem, but one problem still remained: holding "j" to
              scroll and then letting go would not cause the scrolling to stop
              immediately -- instead it would keep scrolling for a while as all the
              input was processed. Also, when scrolling "slow" files (e.g.
              Ruby+cursorline+Relative Number plugin) several "j" events would be
              processed before the screen updating, resulting in the scrolling
              "jumping" in a visually unpleasant way. To cure this I simply decided
              to keep the last input received and drop the rest and that works
              pretty well on my computer. But, obviously this is causing problems
              as described above (I never thought it would be that bad).

              So, for a solution. There are two conflicting goals:
              1. When typing, don't drop any input
              2. Avoid the scrolling problem above (and similar problems that I
              can't think of right now)

              The only thing I can think of right now that may work is to drop
              keyboard input if it comes from a repeated press (i.e. holding down
              "j"), but not when it represent a single key press. I'm going to try
              that now and see how it goes. Other ideas are, as always, welcome.

              Björn

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            • Jonathon Mah
              Hi Björn, ... That sounds like you d be implementing that behavior on the back-end. How would that handle the case of repeating a key, and then pressing
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 1, 2008
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                Hi Björn,

                On 2008-10-02, at 01:16, björn wrote:

                > The only thing I can think of right now that may work is to drop
                > keyboard input if it comes from a repeated press (i.e. holding down
                > "j"), but not when it represent a single key press. I'm going to try
                > that now and see how it goes.


                That sounds like you'd be implementing that behavior on the back-end.
                How would that handle the case of repeating a key, and then pressing
                another key?

                I think of keyboard repeat as a "non-deterministic" thing; that is, it
                requires feedback (audio/visual) to be useful. So any time the screen
                gets out of sync with keyboard repeat is a bad thing. I'd recommend
                having the back-end process check in with the front-end when it's done
                processing its command queue, and then have the front-end implement
                keyboard repeat internally.

                The back-end would need to send back the last key it processed,
                otherwise there could be a race condition.

                That is,
                1. Front-end gets key presses, "hi.<esc>j" ('j' is held down by the
                user). Saves time of last key press.
                2. Front-end posts those keys to the back-end ('j' only once)
                3. Back-end processes queue, sends back EmptiedInputQueueEndingWith('j')
                4. Front-end gets message, sees that 'j' is still held down. If time
                of last key press < repeat interval, then start a timer waiting until
                it is.
                5. Now it's past the key repeat interval. If the key is still down,
                send one 'j' to the back-end, sets "repeating" status.
                6. Back-end processes key, sends back EmptiedInputQueueEndingWith
                7. Front-end gets message. If time of last key message < key repeat
                rate, start a timer. Loop to 5.

                It's fairly convoluted, but it seems like the most desirable behavior
                to me. You'd have to be careful doing repeat with modifiers, too. What
                do you think?


                Key repeat rates (in ticks, 1/60 sec):
                [[NSUserDefaults standardUserDefaults] integerForKey:@"KeyRepeat"]
                [[NSUserDefaults standardUserDefaults]
                integerForKey:@"InitialKeyRepeat"]

                Is an event a key repeat? -[NSEvent isARepeat]



                Jonathon Mah
                me@...



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              • björn
                ... I don t see the problem. If a key is pressed while another is repeating, the repeating key will stop repeating. Did I miss something? ... It does seem
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 1, 2008
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                  2008/10/1 Jonathon Mah <me@...>:
                  >
                  >> The only thing I can think of right now that may work is to drop
                  >> keyboard input if it comes from a repeated press (i.e. holding down
                  >> "j"), but not when it represent a single key press. I'm going to try
                  >> that now and see how it goes.
                  >
                  > That sounds like you'd be implementing that behavior on the back-end.
                  > How would that handle the case of repeating a key, and then pressing
                  > another key?

                  I don't see the problem. If a key is pressed while another is
                  repeating, the repeating key will stop repeating. Did I miss
                  something?

                  > I think of keyboard repeat as a "non-deterministic" thing; that is, it
                  > requires feedback (audio/visual) to be useful. So any time the screen
                  > gets out of sync with keyboard repeat is a bad thing. I'd recommend
                  > having the back-end process check in with the front-end when it's done
                  > processing its command queue, and then have the front-end implement
                  > keyboard repeat internally.
                  >
                  > The back-end would need to send back the last key it processed,
                  > otherwise there could be a race condition.
                  >
                  > That is,
                  > 1. Front-end gets key presses, "hi.<esc>j" ('j' is held down by the
                  > user). Saves time of last key press.
                  > 2. Front-end posts those keys to the back-end ('j' only once)
                  > 3. Back-end processes queue, sends back EmptiedInputQueueEndingWith('j')
                  > 4. Front-end gets message, sees that 'j' is still held down. If time
                  > of last key press < repeat interval, then start a timer waiting until
                  > it is.
                  > 5. Now it's past the key repeat interval. If the key is still down,
                  > send one 'j' to the back-end, sets "repeating" status.
                  > 6. Back-end processes key, sends back EmptiedInputQueueEndingWith
                  > 7. Front-end gets message. If time of last key message < key repeat
                  > rate, start a timer. Loop to 5.
                  >
                  > It's fairly convoluted, but it seems like the most desirable behavior
                  > to me. You'd have to be careful doing repeat with modifiers, too. What
                  > do you think?

                  It does seem overly complicated (perhaps because I didn't fully
                  understand it yet) and I think the patch I wrote fixes the problem
                  with a lot less work. Also, it doesn't seem to work well with the
                  Cocoa input method where you don't test to see if a key is held,
                  instead it sends events when a key is pressed and released. If my
                  patch doesn't work I'll think some more about what you suggest, but
                  for now I'd like to wait and see what the reaction to the patch is. I
                  appreciate the input though!

                  Björn

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                • Jonathon Mah
                  ... I haven t looked at your patch yet, but the situation I was thinking about is when a key is repeated (so there are keypresses in the queue that haven t
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 1, 2008
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                    On 2008-10-02, at 07:35, björn wrote:

                    > 2008/10/1 Jonathon Mah <me@...>:
                    >>
                    >>> The only thing I can think of right now that may work is to drop
                    >>> keyboard input if it comes from a repeated press (i.e. holding down
                    >>> "j"), but not when it represent a single key press. I'm going to
                    >>> try
                    >>> that now and see how it goes.
                    >>
                    >> That sounds like you'd be implementing that behavior on the back-end.
                    >> How would that handle the case of repeating a key, and then pressing
                    >> another key?
                    >
                    > I don't see the problem. If a key is pressed while another is
                    > repeating, the repeating key will stop repeating. Did I miss
                    > something?


                    I haven't looked at your patch yet, but the situation I was thinking
                    about is when a key is repeated (so there are keypresses in the queue
                    that haven't been drawn yet), and a different key is pressed. The
                    first key is no longer repeating, but its past repeats could still be
                    queued. Think holding down 'j', so a lot of scroll events are queued,
                    then hitting 'o'. When the 'o' event comes in, should the queued-but-
                    not-drawn scroll commands be discarded?



                    Jonathon Mah
                    me@...



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                  • Matt Tolton
                    ... Seems like it would be hard to determine which keypresses indicate scroll events and which do not. I could be mapping just about any key in vim to do the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 1, 2008
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                      > I haven't looked at your patch yet, but the situation I was thinking
                      > about is when a key is repeated (so there are keypresses in the queue
                      > that haven't been drawn yet), and a different key is pressed. The
                      > first key is no longer repeating, but its past repeats could still be
                      > queued. Think holding down 'j', so a lot of scroll events are queued,
                      > then hitting 'o'. When the 'o' event comes in, should the queued-but-
                      > not-drawn scroll commands be discarded?

                      Seems like it would be hard to determine which keypresses indicate
                      scroll events and which do not. I could be mapping just about any key
                      in vim to do the same thing as j.

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                    • Matt Tolton
                      ... Scratch that...it doesn t matter. You re talking about doing this for any repeating key, which makes sense. Sorry.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 2, 2008
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                        > Seems like it would be hard to determine which keypresses indicate
                        > scroll events and which do not. I could be mapping just about any key
                        > in vim to do the same thing as j.

                        Scratch that...it doesn't matter. You're talking about doing this for
                        any repeating key, which makes sense. Sorry.

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                      • Steve Huff
                        ... it s all relative, i guess... i see this problem frequently on a 1.5GHz PPC mini at the office and much less frequently (but i still see it!) on a dual
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 2, 2008
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                          On Oct 1, 2008, at 11:46 AM, björn wrote:

                          > Ouch, that is pretty bad. I guess your computer is a lot slower
                          > than mine.

                          it's all relative, i guess... i see this problem frequently on a
                          1.5GHz PPC mini at the office and much less frequently (but i still
                          see it!) on a dual 2.16GHz MacBook Pro at home. we can't all have
                          fancy MacBook Airs :)

                          -steve


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                        • björn
                          ... The way it works now is: 1. input arrives 2. is it a repeat? 2a. yes - queue it unless there already is input on the queue (in which case it is silently
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 2, 2008
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                            2008/10/2 Jonathon Mah <me@...>:
                            >>>
                            >>> That sounds like you'd be implementing that behavior on the back-end.
                            >>> How would that handle the case of repeating a key, and then pressing
                            >>> another key?
                            >>
                            >> I don't see the problem. If a key is pressed while another is
                            >> repeating, the repeating key will stop repeating. Did I miss
                            >> something?
                            >
                            > I haven't looked at your patch yet, but the situation I was thinking
                            > about is when a key is repeated (so there are keypresses in the queue
                            > that haven't been drawn yet), and a different key is pressed. The
                            > first key is no longer repeating, but its past repeats could still be
                            > queued. Think holding down 'j', so a lot of scroll events are queued,
                            > then hitting 'o'. When the 'o' event comes in, should the queued-but-
                            > not-drawn scroll commands be discarded?

                            The way it works now is:

                            1. input arrives
                            2. is it a repeat?
                            2a. yes - queue it unless there already is input on the queue (in
                            which case it is silently dropped)
                            2b. no - just add it to the queue

                            The idea is that the user won't notice if a repeated key is dropped
                            but a typed key will most certainly be noticed. Also, the input
                            handling routine does not distinguish between key input representing
                            "scrolling" and "typing" (this would be a complete mess).

                            Hence there will never be more than one repeated key on the input
                            queue at a time so the scenario you outline cannot happen.

                            Björn

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                          • Frank Hellenkamp
                            Hi, ... Does repeat mean keys, that are coming from auto-repeat, or also keys like when I press two or three times m ? When it is the second one, it should
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 2, 2008
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                              Hi,

                              >>>> That sounds like you'd be implementing that behavior on the back-end.
                              >>>> How would that handle the case of repeating a key, and then pressing
                              >>>> another key?
                              >>> I don't see the problem. If a key is pressed while another is
                              >>> repeating, the repeating key will stop repeating. Did I miss
                              >>> something?
                              >> I haven't looked at your patch yet, but the situation I was thinking
                              >> about is when a key is repeated (so there are keypresses in the queue
                              >> that haven't been drawn yet), and a different key is pressed. The
                              >> first key is no longer repeating, but its past repeats could still be
                              >> queued. Think holding down 'j', so a lot of scroll events are queued,
                              >> then hitting 'o'. When the 'o' event comes in, should the queued-but-
                              >> not-drawn scroll commands be discarded?
                              >
                              > The way it works now is:
                              >
                              > 1. input arrives
                              > 2. is it a repeat?
                              > 2a. yes - queue it unless there already is input on the queue (in
                              > which case it is silently dropped)
                              > 2b. no - just add it to the queue

                              Does "repeat" mean keys, that are coming from auto-repeat, or also keys
                              like when I press two or three times "m"?

                              When it is the second one, it should probably drop from the third key
                              on, not from the second. (Like in "will", "miss", "kommen", "pressed" etc.)


                              best regards,

                              Frank

                              --
                              frank hellenkamp | interface designer
                              jonas.info@... | mail
                              +49.30.49 78 20 70 | tel
                              +49.173.70 55 781 | mbl
                              +49.1805.4002.243 912 | fax
                            • björn
                              ... By repeat I mean auto-repeat , as in hold down a key and the OS will repeat it for you . If you hit m 20 times in a row, then they are all
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 2, 2008
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                                2008/10/2 Frank Hellenkamp <jonas.info@...>:
                                >>
                                >> The way it works now is:
                                >>
                                >> 1. input arrives
                                >> 2. is it a repeat?
                                >> 2a. yes - queue it unless there already is input on the queue (in
                                >> which case it is silently dropped)
                                >> 2b. no - just add it to the queue
                                >
                                > Does "repeat" mean keys, that are coming from auto-repeat, or also keys
                                > like when I press two or three times "m"?
                                >
                                > When it is the second one, it should probably drop from the third key
                                > on, not from the second. (Like in "will", "miss", "kommen", "pressed" etc.)

                                By "repeat" I mean "auto-repeat", as in "hold down a key and the OS
                                will repeat it for you". If you hit "m" 20 times in a row, then they
                                are all processed. If you hold down "m" for 20 seconds, nobody knows
                                how many "m" will be processed.

                                I think it would be unreasonable to check the input and drop a key if
                                it is appears three times or more in a row.

                                Björn

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