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Toolbar, first impressions and customization

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  • E. Wing
    Hello, I just found out about this project and tried it for the first time. I first want to say, Very cool . I ve been using the other macvim that is Carbon
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 7, 2007
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      Hello, I just found out about this project and tried it for the first
      time. I first want to say, 'Very cool'. I've been using the other
      'macvim' that is Carbon based for awhile. I love how this version
      seems to integrate so nicely with the rest of OS X.

      I wanted to comment on the toolbar and my first impression of it
      (because it really grabbed my attention when I launched it). First, I
      was overwhelmed by the number of buttons and kind of stressed-out
      worrying about what I was going to have to learn on top of vim. I'm
      not an expert on the OS X UI guidelines, but I think they generally
      state that you shouldn't be placing well-known generic functions in
      the toolbar, such as Open, Save, Save All, Print, Undo, Redo, Cut,
      Copy, Paste, and Help, at least by default. These are well known
      functions that apply to almost all apps and Mac users can already know
      where to find these features via the Menu or keyboard shortcuts. I had
      an almost knee jerk reaction when I first saw the window open and I
      starting thinking of Microsoft Word. These buttons are okay to have as
      an option, but for defaults, I think they should be left out. That
      means you can remove the first 9 buttons from the left, and the Help
      button. That would make the toolbar a lot less intimidating in my
      opinion.

      This also gets into the second point that there doesn't seem to be a
      way to customize the toolbar. I'm surprised this isn't already
      enabled. I thought it was just a flag or something. Is there a
      technical reason this isn't available?

      Next, I think I read in the guidelines somewhere that the toolbar
      should default to Icon + Text label, meaning you should start with
      text labels under the icons. This helps the user immediately know what
      the buttons do without having to mouse over everything. I also think
      it helps the intimidation factor. Toolbar customization should allow
      the user to switch to Icon only or Text Only.

      Thank you
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    • Nico Weber
      ... I second removing some of the buttons (at least open, save, save as, print). I m not sure how I feel about Undo/Redo, and I would keep Paste. It s the only
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
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        > I wanted to comment on the toolbar and my first impression of it
        > (because it really grabbed my attention when I launched it). First, I
        > was overwhelmed by the number of buttons and kind of stressed-out
        > worrying about what I was going to have to learn on top of vim. I'm
        > not an expert on the OS X UI guidelines, but I think they generally
        > state that you shouldn't be placing well-known generic functions in
        > the toolbar, such as Open, Save, Save All, Print, Undo, Redo, Cut,
        > Copy, Paste, and Help, at least by default. These are well known
        > functions that apply to almost all apps and Mac users can already know
        > where to find these features via the Menu or keyboard shortcuts. I had
        > an almost knee jerk reaction when I first saw the window open and I
        > starting thinking of Microsoft Word. These buttons are okay to have as
        > an option, but for defaults, I think they should be left out. That
        > means you can remove the first 9 buttons from the left, and the Help
        > button. That would make the toolbar a lot less intimidating in my
        > opinion.

        I second removing some of the buttons (at least open, save, save as,
        print). I'm not sure how I feel about Undo/Redo, and I would keep
        Paste. It's the only reliable cross-platform way to get text from the
        clipboard into vim ;-) And better looking icons would be nice too :-P

        About the image + text thing: This, again, is a bit of a hassle to do,
        which is probably the main reason it's not been done (yet?).

        Nico

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      • björn
        Hi, ... This will be a long reply...I don t have any time now but I ll try to ... will give you icons and text. ... will give you the Mac OS X default toolbar
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
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          Hi,

          On 08/12/2007, Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...> wrote:
          >
          > > I wanted to comment on the toolbar and my first impression of it
          > > (because it really grabbed my attention when I launched it). First, I
          > > was overwhelmed by the number of buttons and kind of stressed-out
          > > worrying about what I was going to have to learn on top of vim. I'm
          > > not an expert on the OS X UI guidelines, but I think they generally
          > > state that you shouldn't be placing well-known generic functions in
          > > the toolbar, such as Open, Save, Save All, Print, Undo, Redo, Cut,
          > > Copy, Paste, and Help, at least by default. These are well known
          > > functions that apply to almost all apps and Mac users can already know
          > > where to find these features via the Menu or keyboard shortcuts. I had
          > > an almost knee jerk reaction when I first saw the window open and I
          > > starting thinking of Microsoft Word. These buttons are okay to have as
          > > an option, but for defaults, I think they should be left out. That
          > > means you can remove the first 9 buttons from the left, and the Help
          > > button. That would make the toolbar a lot less intimidating in my
          > > opinion.
          >
          > I second removing some of the buttons (at least open, save, save as,
          > print). I'm not sure how I feel about Undo/Redo, and I would keep
          > Paste. It's the only reliable cross-platform way to get text from the
          > clipboard into vim ;-) And better looking icons would be nice too :-P
          >
          > About the image + text thing: This, again, is a bit of a hassle to do,
          > which is probably the main reason it's not been done (yet?).

          This will be a long reply...I don't have any time now but I'll try to
          get back to it tonight. Until then:

          :set tb=icons,text

          will give you icons and text.

          :set tbis=large

          will give you the Mac OS X default toolbar icon sizes (I'm afraid
          there might be a rendering bug just when you change that option some
          times).

          Otherwise, you can put whatever you want on the toolbar, but Vim is in
          control of it so the usual OS X way of modifying it does not work.
          (To customize the toolbar you need to use :menu ToolBar.XXX, look in
          the help files.)

          /Björn

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        • d.avitabile@gmail.com
          The linux Gvim version has all the buttons by default. I believe there are good reasons for them to be there. When I suggest newbies to switch to vim, the
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
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            The linux Gvim version has all the buttons by default. I believe there
            are good reasons for them to be there. When I suggest newbies to
            switch to vim, the first thing I say is to switch to GVim: they find a
            familiar environment to start with, and they can learn progressively
            the shortcuts via the menu.

            My opinion is that the toolbar should be with all the buttons by
            default.

            Best.

            Daniele


            On Dec 8, 11:07 am, "björn" <bjorn.winck...@...> wrote:
            > Hi,
            >
            > On 08/12/2007, Nico Weber <nicolaswe...@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > > > I wanted to comment on the toolbar and my first impression of it
            > > > (because it really grabbed my attention when I launched it). First, I
            > > > was overwhelmed by the number of buttons and kind of stressed-out
            > > > worrying about what I was going to have to learn on top of vim. I'm
            > > > not an expert on the OS X UI guidelines, but I think they generally
            > > > state that you shouldn't be placing well-known generic functions in
            > > > the toolbar, such as Open, Save, Save All, Print, Undo, Redo, Cut,
            > > > Copy, Paste, and Help, at least by default. These are well known
            > > > functions that apply to almost all apps and Mac users can already know
            > > > where to find these features via the Menu or keyboard shortcuts. I had
            > > > an almost knee jerk reaction when I first saw the window open and I
            > > > starting thinking of Microsoft Word. These buttons are okay to have as
            > > > an option, but for defaults, I think they should be left out. That
            > > > means you can remove the first 9 buttons from the left, and the Help
            > > > button. That would make the toolbar a lot less intimidating in my
            > > > opinion.
            >
            > > I second removing some of the buttons (at least open, save, save as,
            > > print). I'm not sure how I feel about Undo/Redo, and I would keep
            > > Paste. It's the only reliable cross-platform way to get text from the
            > > clipboard into vim ;-) And better looking icons would be nice too :-P
            >
            > > About the image + text thing: This, again, is a bit of a hassle to do,
            > > which is probably the main reason it's not been done (yet?).
            >
            > This will be a long reply...I don't have any time now but I'll try to
            > get back to it tonight. Until then:
            >
            > :set tb=icons,text
            >
            > will give you icons and text.
            >
            > :set tbis=large
            >
            > will give you the Mac OS X default toolbar icon sizes (I'm afraid
            > there might be a rendering bug just when you change that option some
            > times).
            >
            > Otherwise, you can put whatever you want on the toolbar, but Vim is in
            > control of it so the usual OS X way of modifying it does not work.
            > (To customize the toolbar you need to use :menu ToolBar.XXX, look in
            > the help files.)
            >
            > /Björn
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          • Panos
            Since all the default OS X y shortcuts are there (Cmd_S, etc), the entry lvl is minimum for OS X users. I have the tb removed by .vimrc, cause it s too
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
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              Since all the default "OS X"y shortcuts are there (Cmd_S, etc), the
              entry lvl is minimum for OS X users. I have the tb removed by .vimrc,
              'cause it's too overcrowded.

              On Dec 8, 1:53 pm, "d.avitab...@..." <d.avitab...@...>
              wrote:
              > The linux Gvim version has all the buttons by default. I believe there
              > are good reasons for them to be there. When I suggest newbies to
              > switch to vim, the first thing I say is to switch to GVim: they find a
              > familiar environment to start with, and they can learn progressively
              > the shortcuts via the menu.
              >
              > My opinion is that the toolbar should be with all the buttons by
              > default.
              >
              > Best.
              >
              > Daniele
              >
              > On Dec 8, 11:07 am, "björn" <bjorn.winck...@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Hi,
              >
              > > On 08/12/2007, Nico Weber <nicolaswe...@...> wrote:
              >
              > > > > I wanted to comment on the toolbar and my first impression of it
              > > > > (because it really grabbed my attention when I launched it). First, I
              > > > > was overwhelmed by the number of buttons and kind of stressed-out
              > > > > worrying about what I was going to have to learn on top of vim. I'm
              > > > > not an expert on the OS X UI guidelines, but I think they generally
              > > > > state that you shouldn't be placing well-known generic functions in
              > > > > the toolbar, such as Open, Save, Save All, Print, Undo, Redo, Cut,
              > > > > Copy, Paste, and Help, at least by default. These are well known
              > > > > functions that apply to almost all apps and Mac users can already know
              > > > > where to find these features via the Menu or keyboard shortcuts. I had
              > > > > an almost knee jerk reaction when I first saw the window open and I
              > > > > starting thinking of Microsoft Word. These buttons are okay to have as
              > > > > an option, but for defaults, I think they should be left out. That
              > > > > means you can remove the first 9 buttons from the left, and the Help
              > > > > button. That would make the toolbar a lot less intimidating in my
              > > > > opinion.
              >
              > > > I second removing some of the buttons (at least open, save, save as,
              > > > print). I'm not sure how I feel about Undo/Redo, and I would keep
              > > > Paste. It's the only reliable cross-platform way to get text from the
              > > > clipboard into vim ;-) And better looking icons would be nice too :-P
              >
              > > > About the image + text thing: This, again, is a bit of a hassle to do,
              > > > which is probably the main reason it's not been done (yet?).
              >
              > > This will be a long reply...I don't have any time now but I'll try to
              > > get back to it tonight. Until then:
              >
              > > :set tb=icons,text
              >
              > > will give you icons and text.
              >
              > > :set tbis=large
              >
              > > will give you the Mac OS X default toolbar icon sizes (I'm afraid
              > > there might be a rendering bug just when you change that option some
              > > times).
              >
              > > Otherwise, you can put whatever you want on the toolbar, but Vim is in
              > > control of it so the usual OS X way of modifying it does not work.
              > > (To customize the toolbar you need to use :menu ToolBar.XXX, look in
              > > the help files.)
              >
              > > /Björn
              >
              >
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            • Nico Weber
              ... No mac app I know has Open, Save or Save As buttons on its toolbar. These items are always in the File menu and have the same keyboard shortcuts in all
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 9, 2007
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                > The linux Gvim version has all the buttons by default. I believe there
                > are good reasons for them to be there. When I suggest newbies to
                > switch to vim, the first thing I say is to switch to GVim: they find a
                > familiar environment to start with, and they can learn progressively
                > the shortcuts via the menu.

                No mac app I know has Open, Save or Save As buttons on its toolbar.
                These items are always in the File menu and have the same keyboard
                shortcuts in all apps (MacVim included. Cmd-o, Cmd-s, Cmd-Shift-s). So
                for newbies it should be _more_ familiar if there are no toolbar icons
                for this.

                Linux doesn't have consistent keyboard shortcuts (and even if it had,
                they shortcuts would probably be ctrl-something, and vim uses most of
                the ctrl keyboard shortcuts for itself -- ctrl-v is visual block mode
                for example). Linux has no default desktop, so it has no consistent
                guidelines on how toolbars should look. Again, this is not true for
                Mac OS X.

                Nico

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              • travis
                Yeah I d have to agree that they should be turned off by default. Nobody who uses (Mac)Vim uses those it s all key commands, they just take up screen space
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 9, 2007
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                  Yeah I'd have to agree that they should be turned off by default.
                  Nobody who uses (Mac)Vim uses those it's all key commands, they just
                  take up screen space never being used.
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                • björn
                  ... So now we have a whole bunch of people who think the toolbar sucks and we should decide on some good set of items that should be on there (me included).
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 9, 2007
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                    On 09/12/2007, Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > The linux Gvim version has all the buttons by default. I believe there
                    > > are good reasons for them to be there. When I suggest newbies to
                    > > switch to vim, the first thing I say is to switch to GVim: they find a
                    > > familiar environment to start with, and they can learn progressively
                    > > the shortcuts via the menu.
                    >
                    > No mac app I know has Open, Save or Save As buttons on its toolbar.
                    > These items are always in the File menu and have the same keyboard
                    > shortcuts in all apps (MacVim included. Cmd-o, Cmd-s, Cmd-Shift-s). So
                    > for newbies it should be _more_ familiar if there are no toolbar icons
                    > for this.
                    >
                    > Linux doesn't have consistent keyboard shortcuts (and even if it had,
                    > they shortcuts would probably be ctrl-something, and vim uses most of
                    > the ctrl keyboard shortcuts for itself -- ctrl-v is visual block mode
                    > for example). Linux has no default desktop, so it has no consistent
                    > guidelines on how toolbars should look. Again, this is not true for
                    > Mac OS X.

                    So now we have a whole bunch of people who think the toolbar sucks and
                    we should decide on some good set of items that should be on there (me
                    included). Then there is the other group who think the default
                    toolbar should be the same as it is on all other platforms.

                    I would be part of this latter group too if it wasn't for the fact
                    that there are too many items on the default toolbar to fit in a
                    default sized window (due to the fact that the toolbar icons are
                    larger in Mac OS X than on other platforms). For this reason alone I
                    am willing to abandon the default set of toolbar icons and come up
                    with a completely new set that will fit on OS X. (Before anybody asks
                    the obvious question: yes, I don't mind adding a user option that will
                    load the Vim default toolbar.)

                    So here we are then. This is an open project (at least I want it to
                    be), so please tell me what should be on the toolbar. I was of a mind
                    myself to sit down and read the HIG, look at what other apps have on
                    the toolbar, but I find I simply don't have the time/energy to do so
                    (so far at least). Is somebody willing to look into this properly and
                    draft a list that they think is decent so that the rest of us can
                    voice our opinions on said list? This list should take into
                    consideration:

                    1. the HIG
                    2. how other apps deal with it
                    3. previous posts on the subject (on this list, search the archives)

                    It would even be good if somebody would be willing to summarize what
                    should be on the toolbar, according to 1, and what usually is on the
                    toolbar, according to 2.

                    Thanks,
                    Björn

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                  • Nico Weber
                    ... 1. State of the HIG The HIG doesn t help much. While it describes how toolbar icons should look and behave in some details, it doesn t really mention what
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 12, 2007
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                      > So here we are then. This is an open project (at least I want it to
                      > be), so please tell me what should be on the toolbar. I was of a mind
                      > myself to sit down and read the HIG, look at what other apps have on
                      > the toolbar, but I find I simply don't have the time/energy to do so
                      > (so far at least). Is somebody willing to look into this properly and
                      > draft a list that they think is decent so that the rest of us can
                      > voice our opinions on said list? This list should take into
                      > consideration:
                      >
                      > 1. the HIG
                      > 2. how other apps deal with it
                      > 3. previous posts on the subject (on this list, search the archives)


                      1. State of the HIG

                      The HIG doesn't help much. While it describes how toolbar icons should
                      look and behave in some details, it doesn't really mention what kind
                      of actions should be on it ("Toolbars are useful for giving users
                      immediate access to the most frequently used commands" is all).


                      2. Other apps

                      I took a look at other text editors. A surprising lot doesn't have a
                      toolbar at all (TextMate, WriteRoom (well, it's a fullscreen app),
                      Scrivener (has all kinds of toolbar buttons, but they are related to
                      project management and text formatting, so nearly all of its toolbar
                      items are not applicable)).

                      TextWrangler doesn't have the "normal" toolbar (cmd-opt-clicking on
                      the toolbar button doesn't give you a configure dialog and cmd-
                      clicking it doesn't toggle the sizes) and the following buttons:

                      * A pen (no idea what it does, was always grayed out)
                      * A text options button that reveals a dropdown menu with useful
                      settings (softwrap on/off, show tabs, ...)
                      * Show Info (about current doc)
                      * Show/Hide document drawer (shows a drawer with a list of currently
                      opened files -- a bit like carbon vim, but nicer)

                      While TextMate doesn't have a toolbar, it does have some "tools" in
                      its bottom bar (see http://blog.circlesixdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/textmate.jpg
                      ):

                      * line/column display
                      * popup for filetypes (list for possible `:setf` arguments in vim speak)
                      * popup with "bundle items" (kind of like vim's plugin menu, but much
                      much nicer)
                      * popup for tabsize with checkbox for "soft tabs" (inserts spaces)
                      * popup that does the same as the taglist plugin in vim (but looks
                      nicer ;-) )

                      Smultron has a toolbar with the following default buttons:

                      * New, Open, Save, Close (d'oh!)
                      * Live Find
                      * Advanced Find
                      * Info
                      * Preferences (huh?)

                      Some optional buttons include

                      * Preview
                      * Function (dropdown)
                      * Split Window/Close Split
                      * Line wrap/don't line wrap

                      FWIW, Aquamacs has the following (after starting up for > 10 seconds)

                      * New, Open, Save
                      * Undo
                      * Cut, Copy, Paste
                      * Search
                      * Print
                      * Preferences
                      * Help

                      3. Previous discussions

                      Not too much in the archives either:

                      Dan Callahan:
                      * "file opening and saving (along with clipboard and history)
                      operations are extremely rare in toolbars of native Mac applications"
                      * "OS X tends to use its toolbars to deal *only* with a given window's
                      document, not to interact with the application itself."

                      E. Wing:
                      "I'm not an expert on the OS X UI guidelines, but I think they
                      generally state that you shouldn't be placing well-known generic
                      functions in
                      the toolbar, such as Open, Save, Save All, Print, Undo, Redo, Cut,
                      Copy, Paste, and Help, at least by default. These are well known
                      functions that apply to almost all apps and Mac users can already know
                      where to find these features via the Menu or keyboard shortcuts."

                      d.avitabile:
                      "My opinion is that the toolbar should be with all the buttons by
                      default."

                      Panos:
                      "I have the tb removed by .vimrc, 'cause it's too overcrowded."

                      I thought someone said a few weeks ago that the paste button is the
                      only reliable way to paste text on different platforms (and I can
                      confirm this).

                      Bjorn and me want the toolbar changed "somehow" as well.


                      4. The default vim toolbar

                      (found by sshing to a unix box)

                      * Open, Save Current, Save All
                      * Print
                      * Undo, Redo
                      * Cut, Copy, Paste
                      * Find..., Find Next, Find Prev, Find/Replace...
                      * Load Session, Save Session
                      * Run Vim Script (`:browse so`)
                      * Make
                      * Open Command Shell
                      * Build tags in current dir
                      * Jump to tag under cursor
                      * Vim help, search vim help

                      (wow, that's a lot. not all buttons fit on x11 either, the last
                      visible button in the default size is "Open Shell")


                      5. So what?

                      I think "OS X tends to use its toolbars to deal *only* with a given
                      window's document, not to interact with the application itself" is a
                      good guideline.

                      I'd really drop Open, Save all, Print (vim is not that great for
                      printing either :-\), Redo, Cut, Copy, the whole find stuff (`/` is
                      too useful to hide it ;-) ), run vim scripts (I see _no_ situation
                      where this could be useful), Make (only useful if you have a
                      makefile), build tags (exuberant ctags is not installed on osx by
                      default (perhaps we should ship it with the macvim bundle?)).

                      I probably would drop the session stuff (sounds really handy, but you
                      have to fiddle with sessionoptions to make it really useful and even
                      then it's not that useful in my experience), Save Current (no other
                      app except smultron has this (aquamacs doesn't count! ;-) )), vim help
                      (`:help` is not really hard, and MacVim's help menu is really nice),
                      search vim help (dito).

                      I'm not sure about undo (mainly because of http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/04/07/570798.aspx
                      -- but I guess this doesn't really apply here, so I'd drop it too).
                      Jump to tag under cursor might be useful when browsing the help but is
                      not self-explanatory enough, so it should go too.

                      If we limit ourselves to the default vim toolbar items, this leaves
                      "Open Command Shell" which I would keep :-)

                      There are a few other items that I could imagine adding: Mainly for
                      settings you change more or less often (perhaps we could have a
                      toolbar item with a dropdown menu for a few of those settings like
                      TextWrangler has it? I have code for a dropdown toolbar item flying
                      around somewhere). Only self-explanatory settings should be included.

                      A dropdown with toggles for
                      * set number
                      * set list (with 'listchars' set to tab:>-,eol:$ ?)
                      * perhaps set wrap, but vim takes some getting used to in wrapped
                      mode :-P
                      * set expandtab
                      * perhaps a few predefined settings for shiftwidth/expandtab

                      Perhaps a button for "split window" (not that many editors can do this
                      -- but making this work nicely is hard I guess. Perhaps with a
                      dropdown with "horz split", "vert split", "close current split"? Too
                      complex already?)

                      This leaves 2-3 buttons. Not a bad thing, this leaves room for plugins
                      to provide context sensitive buttons.


                      The menu should be restructured a bit as well I guess ;-) If someone
                      knows an experienced user interface designer... ;-)

                      Nico

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                    • Panos
                      Very nice breakdown Nico. Started a wiki page: http://wiki.macvim.org/wiki/MacVim/Toolbar ... --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 12, 2007
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                        Very nice breakdown Nico.

                        Started a wiki page: http://wiki.macvim.org/wiki/MacVim/Toolbar

                        On Dec 12, 10:47 pm, Nico Weber <nicolaswe...@...> wrote:
                        > > So here we are then. This is an open project (at least I want it to
                        > > be), so please tell me what should be on the toolbar. I was of a mind
                        > > myself to sit down and read the HIG, look at what other apps have on
                        > > the toolbar, but I find I simply don't have the time/energy to do so
                        > > (so far at least). Is somebody willing to look into this properly and
                        > > draft a list that they think is decent so that the rest of us can
                        > > voice our opinions on said list? This list should take into
                        > > consideration:
                        >
                        > > 1. the HIG
                        > > 2. how other apps deal with it
                        > > 3. previous posts on the subject (on this list, search the archives)
                        >
                        > 1. State of the HIG
                        >
                        > The HIG doesn't help much. While it describes how toolbar icons should
                        > look and behave in some details, it doesn't really mention what kind
                        > of actions should be on it ("Toolbars are useful for giving users
                        > immediate access to the most frequently used commands" is all).
                        >
                        > 2. Other apps
                        >
                        > I took a look at other text editors. A surprising lot doesn't have a
                        > toolbar at all (TextMate, WriteRoom (well, it's a fullscreen app),
                        > Scrivener (has all kinds of toolbar buttons, but they are related to
                        > project management and text formatting, so nearly all of its toolbar
                        > items are not applicable)).
                        >
                        > TextWrangler doesn't have the "normal" toolbar (cmd-opt-clicking on
                        > the toolbar button doesn't give you a configure dialog and cmd-
                        > clicking it doesn't toggle the sizes) and the following buttons:
                        >
                        > * A pen (no idea what it does, was always grayed out)
                        > * A text options button that reveals a dropdown menu with useful
                        > settings (softwrap on/off, show tabs, ...)
                        > * Show Info (about current doc)
                        > * Show/Hide document drawer (shows a drawer with a list of currently
                        > opened files -- a bit like carbon vim, but nicer)
                        >
                        > While TextMate doesn't have a toolbar, it does have some "tools" in
                        > its bottom bar (seehttp://blog.circlesixdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/textmate.jpg
                        > ):
                        >
                        > * line/column display
                        > * popup for filetypes (list for possible `:setf` arguments in vim speak)
                        > * popup with "bundle items" (kind of like vim's plugin menu, but much
                        > much nicer)
                        > * popup for tabsize with checkbox for "soft tabs" (inserts spaces)
                        > * popup that does the same as the taglist plugin in vim (but looks
                        > nicer ;-) )
                        >
                        > Smultron has a toolbar with the following default buttons:
                        >
                        > * New, Open, Save, Close (d'oh!)
                        > * Live Find
                        > * Advanced Find
                        > * Info
                        > * Preferences (huh?)
                        >
                        > Some optional buttons include
                        >
                        > * Preview
                        > * Function (dropdown)
                        > * Split Window/Close Split
                        > * Line wrap/don't line wrap
                        >
                        > FWIW, Aquamacs has the following (after starting up for > 10 seconds)
                        >
                        > * New, Open, Save
                        > * Undo
                        > * Cut, Copy, Paste
                        > * Search
                        > * Print
                        > * Preferences
                        > * Help
                        >
                        > 3. Previous discussions
                        >
                        > Not too much in the archives either:
                        >
                        > Dan Callahan:
                        > * "file opening and saving (along with clipboard and history)
                        > operations are extremely rare in toolbars of native Mac applications"
                        > * "OS X tends to use its toolbars to deal *only* with a given window's
                        > document, not to interact with the application itself."
                        >
                        > E. Wing:
                        > "I'm not an expert on the OS X UI guidelines, but I think they
                        > generally state that you shouldn't be placing well-known generic
                        > functions in
                        > the toolbar, such as Open, Save, Save All, Print, Undo, Redo, Cut,
                        > Copy, Paste, and Help, at least by default. These are well known
                        > functions that apply to almost all apps and Mac users can already know
                        > where to find these features via the Menu or keyboard shortcuts."
                        >
                        > d.avitabile:
                        > "My opinion is that the toolbar should be with all the buttons by
                        > default."
                        >
                        > Panos:
                        > "I have the tb removed by .vimrc, 'cause it's too overcrowded."
                        >
                        > I thought someone said a few weeks ago that the paste button is the
                        > only reliable way to paste text on different platforms (and I can
                        > confirm this).
                        >
                        > Bjorn and me want the toolbar changed "somehow" as well.
                        >
                        > 4. The default vim toolbar
                        >
                        > (found by sshing to a unix box)
                        >
                        > * Open, Save Current, Save All
                        > * Print
                        > * Undo, Redo
                        > * Cut, Copy, Paste
                        > * Find..., Find Next, Find Prev, Find/Replace...
                        > * Load Session, Save Session
                        > * Run Vim Script (`:browse so`)
                        > * Make
                        > * Open Command Shell
                        > * Build tags in current dir
                        > * Jump to tag under cursor
                        > * Vim help, search vim help
                        >
                        > (wow, that's a lot. not all buttons fit on x11 either, the last
                        > visible button in the default size is "Open Shell")
                        >
                        > 5. So what?
                        >
                        > I think "OS X tends to use its toolbars to deal *only* with a given
                        > window's document, not to interact with the application itself" is a
                        > good guideline.
                        >
                        > I'd really drop Open, Save all, Print (vim is not that great for
                        > printing either :-\), Redo, Cut, Copy, the whole find stuff (`/` is
                        > too useful to hide it ;-) ), run vim scripts (I see _no_ situation
                        > where this could be useful), Make (only useful if you have a
                        > makefile), build tags (exuberant ctags is not installed on osx by
                        > default (perhaps we should ship it with the macvim bundle?)).
                        >
                        > I probably would drop the session stuff (sounds really handy, but you
                        > have to fiddle with sessionoptions to make it really useful and even
                        > then it's not that useful in my experience), Save Current (no other
                        > app except smultron has this (aquamacs doesn't count! ;-) )), vim help
                        > (`:help` is not really hard, and MacVim's help menu is really nice),
                        > search vim help (dito).
                        >
                        > I'm not sure about undo (mainly because ofhttp://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/04/07/570798.aspx
                        > -- but I guess this doesn't really apply here, so I'd drop it too).
                        > Jump to tag under cursor might be useful when browsing the help but is
                        > not self-explanatory enough, so it should go too.
                        >
                        > If we limit ourselves to the default vim toolbar items, this leaves
                        > "Open Command Shell" which I would keep :-)
                        >
                        > There are a few other items that I could imagine adding: Mainly for
                        > settings you change more or less often (perhaps we could have a
                        > toolbar item with a dropdown menu for a few of those settings like
                        > TextWrangler has it? I have code for a dropdown toolbar item flying
                        > around somewhere). Only self-explanatory settings should be included.
                        >
                        > A dropdown with toggles for
                        > * set number
                        > * set list (with 'listchars' set to tab:>-,eol:$ ?)
                        > * perhaps set wrap, but vim takes some getting used to in wrapped
                        > mode :-P
                        > * set expandtab
                        > * perhaps a few predefined settings for shiftwidth/expandtab
                        >
                        > Perhaps a button for "split window" (not that many editors can do this
                        > -- but making this work nicely is hard I guess. Perhaps with a
                        > dropdown with "horz split", "vert split", "close current split"? Too
                        > complex already?)
                        >
                        > This leaves 2-3 buttons. Not a bad thing, this leaves room for plugins
                        > to provide context sensitive buttons.
                        >
                        > The menu should be restructured a bit as well I guess ;-) If someone
                        > knows an experienced user interface designer... ;-)
                        >
                        > Nico
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                      • nicolasweber@gmx.de
                        ... FWIW, the HIG has been updated for Leopard and does now contains some information on designing toolbars:
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 16, 2008
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                          > 1. State of the HIG
                          >
                          > The HIG doesn't help much. While it describes how toolbar icons should  
                          > look and behave in some details, it doesn't really mention what kind  
                          > of actions should be on it ("Toolbars are useful for giving users  
                          > immediate access to the most frequently used commands" is all).

                          FWIW, the HIG has been updated for Leopard and does now contains some
                          information on designing toolbars:
                          http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGWindows/chapter_18_section_4.html

                          Nico
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                        • björn
                          ... First of all, thanks for digging up all that information about toolbars. I didn t comment on it previously because I am still undecided about what to do
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 23, 2008
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                            On 16/01/2008, nicolasweber@... <nicolasweber@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > 1. State of the HIG
                            > >
                            > > The HIG doesn't help much. While it describes how toolbar icons should
                            > > look and behave in some details, it doesn't really mention what kind
                            > > of actions should be on it ("Toolbars are useful for giving users
                            > > immediate access to the most frequently used commands" is all).
                            >
                            > FWIW, the HIG has been updated for Leopard and does now contains some
                            > information on designing toolbars:
                            > http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGWindows/chapter_18_section_4.html
                            >

                            First of all, thanks for digging up all that information about
                            toolbars. I didn't comment on it previously because I am still
                            undecided about what to do about the toolbar. It just doesn't seem to
                            serve much of a function. At the moment I'll just leave it alone and
                            I recommend that people use "set go-=T" for the moment if the current
                            toolbar annoys them too much (which is what I've started doing
                            myself). :-)

                            I will think more about it at some point in time, but for now I'd
                            rather focus on other things.

                            /Björn

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                          • travis
                            I d say leave it as it is, who would honestly even use the Toolbar in Vim? Even if you re a beginner you d be better off learning the commands right off the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 23, 2008
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                              I'd say leave it as it is, who would honestly even use the Toolbar in
                              Vim? Even if you're a beginner you'd be better off learning the
                              commands right off the bat rather than to mess around clicking on
                              stuff.

                              On Jan 23, 2:09 pm, "björn" <bjorn.winck...@...> wrote:
                              > On 16/01/2008, nicolaswe...@... <nicolaswe...@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > 1. State of the HIG
                              >
                              > > > The HIG doesn't help much. While it describes how toolbar icons should
                              > > > look and behave in some details, it doesn't really mention what kind
                              > > > of actions should be on it ("Toolbars are useful for giving users
                              > > > immediate access to the most frequently used commands" is all).
                              >
                              > > FWIW, the HIG has been updated for Leopard and does now contains some
                              > > information on designing toolbars:
                              > >http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OS...
                              >
                              > First of all, thanks for digging up all that information about
                              > toolbars.  I didn't comment on it previously because I am still
                              > undecided about what to do about the toolbar.  It just doesn't seem to
                              > serve much of a function.  At the moment I'll just leave it alone and
                              > I recommend that people use "set go-=T" for the moment if the current
                              > toolbar annoys them too much (which is what I've started doing
                              > myself). :-)
                              >
                              > I will think more about it at some point in time, but for now I'd
                              > rather focus on other things.
                              >
                              > /Björn
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